Fast broken chords

[rjm-uk]

When doing a repeated broken chord up the keuboard like those of Chopins Etude Op.10. No.1 is it important to keep the hand perpendicular to the keyboard, or can u rotate your hand out a bit as if your fingers are walking up the keyboard, thus making it seem a lot easier.

[xvimbi]

Movements should not be chosen according to whether they make something SEEM a lot easier. They should actually make it a lot easier

In my experience, I find that keeping the hand parallel to the keyboard at all times during a section, such as an arpeggio, only leads to inefficient and often awkward movements. I tend to involve every joint, at least from the shoulders via elbow to the wrist to get my fingers to where I want them. This will result in all kinds of angles with which the fingers hit the keyboard. IMO, it is more important to keep the fingers collinear with the forearm. It is perfectly OK to hit a key at 45 degrees relativ to the keyboard, but it is not OK to hit it with 45 degrees relativ to the forearm (that is, using an angled wrist). So, for arpeggios, using a cartwheel-like motion is what I usually (attempt to) do. Just make sure you don't look like a chicken

[pianistimo]

in a book i purchased "mastering the scales and arpeggios" by james francis cooke, he says:

"in arpeggio playing it is very necessary to expand the hand without injury.  one of the most annoying conditions that can confront the teacher is that of having an exceptionally bright little pupil with a hand too small to stretch the chords in pieces that would normally be in the pupil's grasp...rubensteins hand was small, he seemingly delighted in using extended arpeggios and overcoming them by a skillful use of the pedal and by digital quickness....

one of the things which the teacher must observe is to avoid strain by alternating expansion with contraction and with periods of complete rest.  the following exercises have been found exceptionally valuable, and have been successfully employed for many years...they are based upon the principle that in piano playing there are two distinct lines of movement (up and down and right and left). by continually exercising the hand in both directions and allowing sufficient time to develop naturally, the author has found very few cases that would not respond to this treatment...."

*before i copy these 'system of expansion' exercises - i might say that of the two methods you spoke about, i like something inbetween.  when you are playing slowly, you can take time to use the 'motion' method, and as you get closer to the keys and faster, obviously less motion and more quick expansion and contraction with your arm (sort of ghost like) moving up the keyboard.  your fingers don't leave the keys as much when you are playing very fast.  they are sort of massaged and there isn't as much time for large motions.

SYSTEM OF EXPANSION for arpeggios (for young children)

#1 take a chromatic five finger exercise and use 123454321 in rh and 543212345 in lh on the notes going up and back down.  end on half- note on C and E.   (c, C#, d, D#, e, E-flat, d, D-flat, C- half note, E half-note) using 1, 3 for rh and 5, 3 for lh.

#2 use the same chromatic five finger exercise, but end on an arpeggiated dominant seventh chord (C,  E, G, B-flat) and use 1, 2, 3, 4 for the rh and 5, 4, 3, 2 for the lh.  then go back down the dominant seventh and do the chromatic five finger exercise again and end on C.

#3 do the chromatic five-finger exercise again, but end on an arpeggiated I chord (C, E, G, C using 1, 2, 3, 4 rh and 5, 4, 3, 2 lh)  then invert (play backwards) and play five-finger chromatic ex. once again, and then whole note C.

#4 for pupils who can strike an octave, but want to make their grasp larger (tenths) try playing the (contraction) chromatic exercise and then (expansion) C, G, C, G with 1, 2, 3, 4 rh and 5, 4, 3, 2 lh.

you can also make another variant on these exercises by placing the contraction (chromatic five-finger work) at the top of the arpeggio, and then again at the bottom.  so, in effect - you have #1 five finger  #2 arpeggio up #3 five finger #4 arpeggio down 5 five finger #6 end note held out.

you can see with #4 that it would hardly be able to be played with motion - more of a quick sideways movement - arm even and moving ghost- like up the keyboard.

hope this helps!

 

 

[pianistimo]

great advice, what xvimbi said - as you can still play quickly and evenly.  as you speed up - you just notice less time to use movement - so the angles probably help a lot.  i don't know if this next idea is correct or not (some of you expert teachers say yay or nay) but if you think of your forearm on a string being pulled up (around the wrist) - your hand sort of angles with with fingers slightly to left.  then, if you are being pulled down or left - your wrist might be angled more left and your fingers to the right or even?

[rjm-uk]

Hmm im not sure if im explaining myself that well, so ive done a crappy video clip. My web cam doesnt reach the piano so its on a keyboard, i know its a strange angle but it kind of shows what i mean. Is it ok to use the second technique shown for very large broken chords  eg   B - A -  D - F

Its here (sorry about the video quality)

https://www.mackenzies.plus.com/Data/brokenchord.wmv

[xvimbi]

As far as I can see, the second technique is the thumb-under (TU) technique, the first is "thumb-over" (TO), which means it's not thumb-under, but involves hand displacement instead.

This is a contentious subject.

Generally, TU is an awkward movement, but it results in a legato sound. TO is "healthier", but creates gaps. At high speed or with pedal, TO can also give a legato sound, but it needs to be practiced well. In real life one will most often use a mixture of TO and TU.

If that is what you are asking then please check out the myriads of threads on TU and TO.

In a nutshell, I prefer TO as much as possible, but let your ear guide you. You need to somehow achieve the sound that you want. TO is more difficult, but well worth it in the long run.

Hope that helps.

[pianistimo]

yes.  i suppose the flatter your hand, the more you use the TO idea.  but, that wouldn't make your hand turn at a slight angle would it? or are you talking about angling toward a high note that might be a black note? moving in and out of the white and black keys?  just wondering.  my arpeggio technique isn't perfected yet.  just use a slight bit of pedalling to keep it sounding ok.