how many people in the world right now could play...

[stevie]

chopin's op10no4 in under 1'30 seconds with no wrong notes?

and also, what about op10no2 in under 1 minute with perfect accuracy?

[sonatainfsharp]

Tell me, what would be the point in the first place?

If someone could do it, it would come across as more naive than impressive.

[danyal]

chopin's op10no4 in under 1'30 seconds with no wrong notes?

and also, what about op10no2 in under 1 minute with perfect accuracy?

Who cares? As sonatainfsharp siad, there just is no point. It just shows ignorance rather than musicality.

I went to a national youth competition recently (just to watch, didnt paticipate) where in one of the rounds, one participant squeezed the mephisto waltz and chopin's 2nd scherzo into 15mins. The notes were flawless (most of the time) but was commented on "playing the notes at double speed, just trying to impress, general performance awful, no musicality whatsoever... etc etc" Needless to say he didnt make it past the 1st round. My friend beat him in that round with a chopin nocturne and a bach.

The sooner you learn that being a good pianist is not about how fast, loudly and impressively you can thump the notes out of the piano, and more about the music, soul and life of the piece and how it is interpreted, the better it'll be for everyone. You'll impress anyone anyday with a good sound, making every note shine for what its worth, rather than with fast fingers. Technique will only get you so far, and no further. The best of pianists, the ones that have made it, all have something exceptionally unique and special in their playing that outshine, and cant be possibly ever be compared to, the naive show off, playing in back bars.

[gorbee natcase]

I am working on this piece right now and it is increadibly difficult/psychologicaly, and at that tempo even more so, so I would immagine not many

[chromatickler]

The best of pianists, the ones that have made it, all have something exceptionally unique and special in their playing that outshine, and cant be possibly ever be compared to, the naive show off, playing in back bars.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. the one's who have made it professionally have done so on the basis of 2 things: technique and quantity of performable repertoire.

and these 2 things can be combined and translated into:

how fast it takes you to learn a certain piece to be able to play it at a certain speed with a certain degree of accuracy.

[bachelssohn]

Anyone else tired of all these ridiculous technique based threads? Waste of time.

[xvimbi]

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. the one's who have made it professionally have done so on the basis of 2 things: technique and quantity of performable repertoire.

and these 2 things can be combined and translated into:

how fast it takes you to learn a certain piece to be able to play it at a certain speed with a certain degree of accuracy.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. the one's who have made it professionally have done so on the basis of 2 things: general well-rounded pianistsic skills, and luck to be at the right time at the right place, and/or to have the right friends.

That applies to pretty much any profession, except politics, where having the right friends is the only thing that counts. Here, qualification is often counter-productive.

[stevie]

Anyone else tired of all these ridiculous technique based threads? Waste of time.

time is only wasted by those whom are too slow.

Tell me, what would be the point in the first place?

If someone could do it, it would come across as more naive than impressive.

sure, thats what all the slow pianists tell me...

Who cares? As sonatainfsharp siad, there just is no point. It just shows ignorance rather than musicality.

who cares?

anyone who is passionate about virtuosity, the possibilities of the human body, and even the musical possibilities inherent in performing a work at an unprecedented tempo, it does actually sound VERY GOOD.

[perfect_pitch]

time is only wasted by those whom are too slow.

Very nicely philosophical... I like that... pretty unique.

[bachelssohn]

I called it wasted time because pianism is not a sport, it's an art. Technique is nothing but a vehicle to music.

[chopiabin]

I will say, however, that excessive speed can ruin a piece - even in the hands of a great technician and performer. I have a recording of Argerich's Rach 3 (I know it's cliche, but I like to listen to it) and she fails to bring out so many important melodies because she is trying to replace passion and excitement with some sort of speed overdrive.

Don't get me wrong, speed can be very important, but there are times when you either shouldn't play a piece at a certain speed because it compromises other factors of the performance or because it simply starts to sound silly.

I finally decided to slow parts of the op.25#12 down because I was starting to lose clarity in the piece. It's one of those pieces that is really hard to forget, so your speed increases a lot if you play it frequently and it can start to sound too muddled. Anyways.....

[prometheus]

Assuming anyone cares, how would one know?

[arensky]

chopin's op10no4 in under 1'30 seconds with no wrong notes?

and also, what about op10no2 in under 1 minute with perfect accuracy?

Ah yes, but what does "perfect accuracy" entail? What are it's components? Is it OK to just hit all the notes evenly and precisely? Or does it have to have an emotional quality or affect? If the "emo" aspect is missing, is that like hitting a wrong note? What about dynamics? Tone color? Are these nessacary in our vision of perfect accuracy? Or is it just the notes?


Only Rusnak knows....

[leahcim]

Ah yes, but what does "perfect accuracy" entail?

I thought he meant accurate to within a few seconds, so if the answer was > 3 he could time an egg?

[pita bread]

If you have a problem with threads like these, just don't post on them.

Stevie, what are the current records on those pieces? :stopwatch: :dong:

[perfect_pitch]

Ah yes, but what does "perfect accuracy" entail? What are it's components? Is it OK to just hit all the notes evenly and precisely? Or does it have to have an emotional quality or affect? If the "emo" aspect is missing, is that like hitting a wrong note? What about dynamics? Tone color? Are these nessacary in our vision of perfect accuracy? Or is it just the notes?


Only Rusnak knows....

How the hell can it have emotional quality when your supposed to be able to play it in less than a minute.

If i said to you, play raindrop prelude in less than 1.30, there is no way in hell you could play that with emotion...

[pita bread]

How the hell can it have emotional quality when your supposed to be able to play it in less than a minute.

If i said to you, play raindrop prelude in less than 1.30, there is no way in hell you could play that with emotion...

Are you implying that angst, fury, and passion are not emotions?

[xvimbi]

If you have a problem with threads like these, just don't post on them.

This sounds like a very general statements. Does that mean one is not allowed to voice any dissenting opinions anymore? Never, ever?

[stevie]

I called it wasted time because pianism is not a sport, it's an art. Technique is nothing but a vehicle to music.

music is an art, pianism is both a sport and an art.

the whole concept of virtuosity is about the marriage of supreme physicality and musicality, IMO NOTHING IN THE WORLD is more exciting that a stunningly virtuosic performance of a great piano work.

[contrapunctus]

I will say, however, that excessive speed can ruin a piece - even in the hands of a great technician and performer. I have a recording of Argerich's Rach 3 (I know it's cliche, but I like to listen to it) and she fails to bring out so many important melodies because she is trying to replace passion and excitement with some sort of speed overdrive.

Don't get me wrong, speed can be very important, but there are times when you either shouldn't play a piece at a certain speed because it compromises other factors of the performance or because it simply starts to sound silly.

I finally decided to slow parts of the op.25#12 down because I was starting to lose clarity in the piece. It's one of those pieces that is really hard to forget, so your speed increases a lot if you play it frequently and it can start to sound too muddled. Anyways.....

I agree, gould had one of the greatest techniques  but he fought with bernstein because he thought the brahms PC should be played extremely slow.

[stevie]

If you have a problem with threads like these, just don't post on them.

Stevie, what are the current records on those pieces? :stopwatch: :dong:

sviatoslav richter's 10/4 at 1:31

vadim rudenko's 10/2 at 1:01

[lostinidlewonder]

I've though about it for a long time and worked out that it's 42. Really.

[stevie]

I've though about it for a long time and worked out that it's 42. Really.

well, the point of this quiestion is to think about how rare this kind of uber-virtuosity is...

just how many piansits are there with the kind of dexterity that hamelin, libetta, cziffra and all those greats have/had out there?

are there many piansits with freak-techniques that get nowhere?
and if so, are those freak-techniques possibly even ggreater than some of the famus pianists' techniques?

[leahcim]

pianism is ....a sport

I'm not sure whether this is making me laugh as much as the doom 3 players do

I'd say it's physical and thus athletic, but the competition element isn't comparing that no more than if
baseball players sang on the way around and one said "How many baseball players can hit a high C?"

I bet [which is gambling - is that a sport too? ] if it were, i.e if a stopwatch was deployed to see how fast a piece could be
played, then there would be lots who would do it - given a decent incentive like a big pot of cash.

[chromatickler]

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. the one's who have made it professionally have done so on the basis of 2 things: general well-rounded pianistsic skills, and luck to be at the right time at the right place, and/or to have the right friends.

That applies to pretty much any profession, except politics, where having the right friends is the only thing that counts. Here, qualification is often counter-productive.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG, because you managed to agree with the only statement that mattered in my post.

[practicingnow]

exactly 14

[stevie]

exactly 14

names?

[dinosaurtales]

I called it wasted time because pianism is not a sport, it's an art. Technique is nothing but a vehicle to music.

This gives me an idea. I keep hearing about the slow demise of interest in classical music, based on  modern culture, etc.  What if we invented a Piano Olympics of sorts, with various decathlon-style events, such as: the scale speed competition, the arpeggio competition, jumps, hand crossing, etc etc.  Sort of like the skills competion event they have the professioinal ice hockey guys do.  It would be crass and elitist, just like the skills competition, because only the "best" would be invited to compete.  The competitors could "act cool" and the public would love it.  We could get John Madden to host.  Maybe we could bring interest back.......

[arensky]

This gives me an idea. I keep hearing about the slow demise of interest in classical music, based on  modern culture, etc.  What if we invented a Piano Olympics of sorts, with various decathlon-style events, such as: the scale speed competition, the arpeggio competition, jumps, hand crossing, etc etc.  Sort of like the skills competion event they have the professioinal ice hockey guys do.  It would be crass and elitist, just like the skills competition, because only the "best" would be invited to compete.  The competitors could "act cool" and the public would love it.  We could get John Madden to host.  Maybe we could bring interest back.......

Alicia de Larrocha suggested this rather dryly and sarcastically in an interview about 30 years ago...

[stevie]

Alicia de Larrocha suggested this rather dryly and sarcastically in an interview about 30 years ago...

predictably she is a bit on the slow side 

[arensky]

predictably she is a bit on the slow side 

Have you heard the Liszt Sonata? Faster than most...

[arensky]

And Triana, Malaga, Corpus Christi, El Albaicin, Sevilla, Aragon...

Variations Serieuses, Alborada del Gracioso, Noctuelles, and so on...

and so I ask you, what have you heard that is so zlow?

[pianowelsh]

Fanny Watermann (the GREAT pianist and Teacher) lamented publically some time ago the fact that there are too many 'musical typewriter's' out there and that far too few are concerned with beauty and sonority. Frankly I couldnt agree more  - and the situation has worsened since then.  WHEN will people learn that technique IS NOT about speed - it is the Art of playing Beautifully (which may, when required encompass speed).  Even if you seek to match Chopins metronome marks (not sure if they come out at the tempi you want - but you should check), Chopin's own law was music first and ease of expression - NOT break-neck speed.  Nobody wants to hear a mass of scrambled notes in a concert - and frankly ive heard Big names do that to their detrement.  Im sure you dont, but people often abuse the Chopin etudes by riping through them beginning to end and totally missing all the detail in the name of, guess what 'speed'.  If you can bring out every musical nuance and detail and play every note clearly so that in a ressonant hall it will sound clearly and if your pedalling is perfection and if your dynamic control is pin point road worth aaand still fit it all into under a minute or whatever you said then Go for it by all means BUT you will probably be the ONLY person in the world who can!

[arensky]

Even if you seek to match Chopins metronome marks (not sure if they come out at the tempi you want - but you should check), Chopin's own law was music first and ease of expression - NOT break-neck speed.

Chopin's MM's are fast because pianos then were easier to play at high speeds...

It was Liszt's "law" too...

[pianowelsh]

Very true Arensky. (incidentally why do so few people look at the etudes by Arensky?). It is worth mentioning that the lilelyhood that even the #greatest' pianists of the past could do the submin mark on modern pianos is pretty slim.

[danyal]

Fanny Watermann (the GREAT pianist and Teacher) lamented publically some time ago the fact that there are too many 'musical typewriter's' out there and that far too few are concerned with beauty and sonority. Frankly I couldnt agree more  - and the situation has worsened since then.  WHEN will people learn that technique IS NOT about speed - it is the Art of playing Beautifully (which may, when required encompass speed).  Even if you seek to match Chopins metronome marks (not sure if they come out at the tempi you want - but you should check), Chopin's own law was music first and ease of expression - NOT break-neck speed.  Nobody wants to hear a mass of scrambled notes in a concert - and frankly ive heard Big names do that to their detrement.  Im sure you dont, but people often abuse the Chopin etudes by riping through them beginning to end and totally missing all the detail in the name of, guess what 'speed'.  If you can bring out every musical nuance and detail and play every note clearly so that in a ressonant hall it will sound clearly and if your pedalling is perfection and if your dynamic control is pin point road worth aaand still fit it all into under a minute or whatever you said then Go for it by all means BUT you will probably be the ONLY person in the world who can!

I like you. Just because you are one of the only people to agree with me in this entire thread.

Anyway, my point is, people will remember a concert and a pianist for generations to come for his interprative ability, musicality, style, emotion and soul, rather than his ability to move his fingers fast. Ofcourse being an all rounded pianist requires both, (dont get me wrong, I'm not at all disregarding technique) but you cant really have one without the other... its just that any emotionally dead monkey can be taught, practised and drilled to work the notes at hell bent speeds and record breaking limits... but that somewhat defeats the point of PLAYING MUSIC doesnt it?

[pianowelsh]

Yes! Its both and.  I do presume we speak about 'perfection'.  I mean the number of people who have the most flawless technique And a devestatingly innate sense of musicality are miniscule and not all of them even make it in the profession (some people care too much to suceed!) so it really is Technique + musicality + x.  But to address your question there are probably at least a good handful (probably more ) that could do what you suggest.  Whether anyone would want to hear them more than once - well that's a whole other question.

[thierry13]

I finally decided to slow parts of the op.25#12 down because I was starting to lose clarity in the piece. It's one of those pieces that is really hard to forget, so your speed increases a lot if you play it frequently and it can start to sound too muddled. Anyways.....

That's because your technique is not good enough to play it that fast.  Not because it sounds better slower. If you can play as clear, but faster, it's allways the best.

[pianowelsh]

In the Ashkenazy recording i have he also pulls back here.  I guarentee you he is not struggling with the technique - he pulls back for a reason.  Quite possibly the same as the chopiabin. I heard Sokolov play this etude once and you couldnt tell what the time signature was or where the pedal changes were it was just all a blur start to finish with no discernable shape (harsh but true). I would have much rather heard it slower and actually been able to come away having heard some music. Alas it seems i ask too much!