4/5 Trills

[Torp]

I did a search but didn't find anything specific about trills between the 4th and 5th fingers.  I'm very interested in the anatomical movements that can help solve the "problem."  If anyone has any advice I'd appreciate it, or if you can point me to the threads where this has been discussed.

Thanks in advance,

Jef

[xvimbi]

1. Avoid like the plague
2. Don't try to execute using only finger movements
3. Avoid like the plague
4. Involve forearm rotations as much as possible
5. Avoid like the plague

I bet you already knew that...

[Torp]

1,3, and 5 I have been practicing religiously all my life!

2 became apparent in a matter of moments.

4 is where most of my questions are at the moment.  Actually, it is the combining of 2 and 4 that, I suspect, holds the key.  Want to give a shot at explaining what it is I should be doing from a physiology standpoint?  The trill in question is between D and C
# in the right hand.

I find that when I use rotation only I don't get the articulation that I want and when I use only finger movements I don't get the speed I want.

Any thoughts on how to work out the balance between these elements would be greatly appreciated.  I'm too close to the problem at the moment and can't seem to really approach it as objectively as I would like.

[march05]

1. Avoid like the plague
2. Don't try to execute using only finger movements
3. Avoid like the plague
4. Involve forearm rotations as much as possible
5. Avoid like the plague

I bet you already knew that...

my thoughts are

1, 3, 5 --- best ever solution (of course)!!, but sadly 4-5 trills are somewhat common in difficult music... comes to mind: chopin polonaise in Ab, liszt la campanella, brahms paganini variations

2,4 --- my thoughts are that forearm rotations are only useful for slow (lyrical) trills. forearm has much bigger mass than hand, so it'll need plenty of energy to rotate quickly. the result is muscle fatique after several seconds. any visible movement of upper arm is even more so.

i think my list would be:

1) finger 4 and 5 independence. i think that's ability to play 4-5-4-5-4-5-4-5... at a slow tempo, but very rythmical and *without any special effort* on pianist's part. finger 4 should rise just as 5 presses and vice versa *without conscious effort*.

2) to gain speed, play 4-5-4-5-... with metronome, start slow and increase step by step when one can play trill without special effort.

3) absorb most of rotation/other-hand-movements at the wrist. freely use any hand movement that helps, but flexible wrist compensate for hand movements, so that *behind* the wrist (ie. forearm and upperarm), there is only a slight vibration.

that's my two cents,
good luck!

[xvimbi]

2,4 --- my thoughts are that forearm rotations are only useful for slow (lyrical) trills. forearm has much bigger mass than hand, so it'll need plenty of energy to rotate quickly. the result is muscle fatique after several seconds. any visible movement of upper arm is even more so.

There might be a slight misunderstanding. When people say "hand rotation", they actually mean forearm rotation. The hand is not able of rotating.

1) finger 4 and 5 independence. i think that's ability to play 4-5-4-5-4-5-4-5... at a slow tempo, but very rythmical and *without any special effort* on pianist's part. finger 4 should rise just as 5 presses and vice versa *without conscious effort*.

Wow, can anybody actually do that?

[Torp]

Yes, it seems that forearm rotation often gets confused with hand rotation.  Additionally, I have found forearm rotation to be extremely fast wrt octave tremelos.  I'm trying to move from that type of rotation to a similar rotation in the 4/5 fingers but not finding any success.  And by success I guess I mean comfort.  It could be that I'm on the right track but it just feels wierd because it's new.

[thalbergmad]

4/5 trills occur often in the works of Thalberg and are unavoidable when you are required to play a melody with other fingers.

The simple answer is to practice them.

Just as a warm up, i do trills with all combinations of fingers every day, including thirds and sixths.

I can play 4/5 trills with no discomfort and have suffered no injury.

[Torp]

The simple answer is to practice them.

I can play 4/5 trills with no discomfort and have suffered no injury.

Can you describe the movements you are doing with your fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, etc. in order to do these?

I have no difficulty with the concept of practice.  I would simply prefer to be practicing the most effective way to do them.

Just as a warm up, i do trills with all combinations of fingers every day, including thirds and sixths.

Does having 6 fingers help?

[thalbergmad]

Can you describe the movements you are doing with your fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, etc. in order to do these?

I have no difficulty with the concept of practice.  I would simply prefer to be practicing the most effective way to do them.

Does having 6 fingers help?

I have never really looked at what i do, but to answer your question i went out into my garage to my piano.

I was surprised at the lack of movement of arms, wrist etc. All of the work was being done by the fingers. The only difference to my normal stance was a slightly raised wrist.

I have not studied the concept of arm rotation and do not understand it. I can simply do 4/5 trills from years of doing the Hanon trill exercises and playing pieces which include them, such as the works of Thalberg.

This is probably not much use to you, but it is what works for me.

I am a stuck in the past miserable git.

[ted]

All right, I usually dodge these technical posts because years of faulty inculcation have given me an unusual technique. However, for what the fact is worth, I play all this sort of stuff and double ones just using finger strokes. Whether this is through using a practice clavier for years I don't know.

Some months ago I read posts here and on Pianoworld describing the right way to do these things and commenced putting the advice into practice. e.g. Chopin 25/6 and so on. What I found, after making recordings, was that I preferred the clean sound of my finger strokes over the correct way, so I have now gone back to my old habits.

I don't seem to use much weight with these trills - the action is closer to running than to walking, relying on imparting even trip-hammer impetus to the key rather than a connected motion.

All wrong, I know, but there we are. I add this reply for interest; just ignore it as far as advice goes.

[Torp]

Ted,

I will not ignore it.  I will explore what you've said.  If I ultimately find that your methodology does not work for me, at least I can make that decision based on application rather than on some sort of blind devotion to pedagog.  Thanks for your input.

Jef

[xvimbi]

Ted,

I will not ignore it.  I will explore what you've said.  If I ultimately find that your methodology does not work for me, at least I can make that decision based on application rather than on some sort of blind devotion to pedagog.  Thanks for your input.

Jef

Good attitude

[xvimbi]

Some months ago I read posts here and on Pianoworld describing the right way to do these things and commenced putting the advice into practice. e.g. Chopin 25/6 and so on. What I found, after making recordings, was that I preferred the clean sound of my finger strokes over the correct way, so I have now gone back to my old habits.

I was interested in seeing what that "correct way" is. Could you point me to specific posts? I checked out the forum, but all I found what the enthusiastic recommendation of "anchored trill exercises", which I personally don't like at all. But more importantly, I couldn't really find anything about HOW to execute those exercises. Showing a bunch of notes is useless if it's not explained what the corresponding movements should/could look like. Thanks.

[Torp]

Showing a bunch of notes is useless if it's not explained what the corresponding movements should/could look like.

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm after too, the corresponding movements.

[Nordlys]

4/5 trills is one of the pianist's biggest fear (at least for me )

I once attended a concert with Zoltan Kocsis, the famous hungarian pianist, and he played the last sonata by Beethoven, opus 111. In the last movement, there is a famous part where you have to trill with fingers 4/5 while playing a melodi with the other part of the hand. He played the most beautiful trill I have heard, with fingers 4/5! So it is definitely anatomically possible! I have to admit that was one thing I remembered from the concert, because I was a young student and interested in technical things. (But the concert was very good, beautiful playing by a great pianist).

For the question of how to manage these trills:

I was surprised at the lack of movement of arms, wrist etc. All of the work was being done by the fingers. The only difference to my normal stance was a slightly raised wrist.

I don't seem to use much weight with these trills - the action is closer to running than to walking, relying on imparting even trip-hammer impetus to the key rather than a connected motion.

I believe that Thalbergmad and Ted are correct when they notice that the arm doesn't do much work in these kind of trills. For example, with 1/3-trills, you do almost all the work with arm rotation. But with 4/5-trills it is actually the fingers working. That seems incredible, since these fingers are so weak.

My theory is this: The 5th finger is the smallest and has a weak muscle, but has actually quite good independence and a stable structure. It can be trained to be as independent as the 2nd and 3rd finger (or almost).  The 4th finger by contrast is quite strong, but lack in independence and stability. If you try to move the knuckle of the 4th finger, you will notice that it is quite loose.

If you are going to do 4/5 trills, you need a quite strong 5th-finger; it has to be trained. It can be trained quite well and can achieve great independence. The 4th finger will not be independent, but it is not necessary. At the concert with Kocsis I noticed that his 3rd finger was lifted high when he trilled 4/5. This happens automatically, because else you cannot move the 4th finger wich is connected to the 3rd. But the 5th and 4th fingers are quite independent of each other (if you have trained fingers). So the movement is: The 5th finger will move in an agile way, and the 4th will move almost nothing, and feel "connected" with the rest of the hand, while the 3rd finger is raised.

I also have noticed that these trills are somehow easier when the hand is stretched, like when you take an octave with the thumb and 5th finger. Maybe because the slightly tense hand creates more stability for the loose 4th finger. Coincidentally the cases where you need 4/5 trills are normally also where the hand has to stretch out, so this is fortunate.

This was more difficult to explain than I thought, but I hope you understood me.

[jhon]

actually, 3~4 trills should be ideally harder for a pianist - than 4~5 ones.  you see, pianists are the only people in the world who's 5th finger is stronger than the 4th.  Why?  Because of the prevalence of octaves (where we commonly use 1-5) in almost all piano repertoire

[Etude]

actually, 3~4 trills should be ideally harder for a pianist - than 4~5 ones.  you see, pianists are the only people in the world who's 5th finger is stronger than the 4th.  Why?  Because of the prevalence of octaves (where we commonly use 1-5) in almost all piano repertoire

I use 1-4 for most black key octaves though, and 3~4 trills are definately easier for me than 4~5.

[rob47]

a good way to strengthen your 5 th finger, is on push doors use your pinky, or both pinkies

or if its really heavy suome fingers and your pinkies

don't wreck your 5th finger though.

[thalberg]

Hello,

I have the solution for you--or at least my solution.  It works for me.  I learned it in variation 28 of the Goldberg Variations.

First of all, fingers should strive for inter-dependence, not independence.

The fifth finger and second finger contain opposing muscle groups.  Explore this yourself by spreading out your hand like you want to reach a big chord.  Can you spread only your second finger alone?  Only your fifth?  No.  They move together to spread the hand.

When you do a 4/5 trill, your fifth finger must not only move down, but also out with each movement. Your hand tilts to the side, so the out motion really is part of the down motion. That's just how it works, like it or not. 

So, when you put down your 5th finger, extend your 2nd finger in the exact opposite direction--2 goes up and out as 5 goes down and out.

As you lower the second finger, 4 will naturally come down.  When you raise the second finger, 5 will go down and out and 4 will go up.

Rhythmically, only give weight to the 5th finger every other time it occurs.  Otherwise you'll be fluttering your hand, and that's not efficient enough.  So you're playing 4-note groups.  Otherwise your trill will slow down.  Tell me if this helps--it's what I do and it works for me.

[rimv2]

Hello,

I have the solution for you--or at least my solution.  It works for me.  I learned it in variation 28 of the Goldberg Variations.

First of all, fingers should strive for inter-dependence, not independence.

The fifth finger and second finger contain opposing muscle groups.  Explore this yourself by spreading out your hand like you want to reach a big chord.  Can you spread only your second finger alone?  Only your fifth?  No.  They move together to spread the hand.

When you do a 4/5 trill, your fifth finger must not only move down, but also out with each movement. Your hand tilts to the side, so the out motion really is part of the down motion. That's just how it works, like it or not. 

So, when you put down your 5th finger, extend your 2nd finger in the exact opposite direction--2 goes up and out as 5 goes down and out.

As you lower the second finger, 4 will naturally come down.  When you raise the second finger, 5 will go down and out and 4 will go up.

Rhythmically, only give weight to the 5th finger every other time it occurs.  Otherwise you'll be fluttering your hand, and that's not efficient enough.  So you're playing 4-note groups.  Otherwise your trill will slow down.  Tell me if this helps--it's what I do and it works for me.

Sadly mah 2nd finger is almost complete independent of the 5th

Ironically the 5th must rely on them all

[thalberg]

Okay.

It's too bad I can't show you in person--I really do have a good 4/5 trill. Maybe my mode of expression was not good enough. 

[crazy for ivan moravec]

theres only one tendon that moves the 4th and 5th fingers, right? tilting to the right (for RH) is actually a good idea when playing 4/5 trills because i feel that the tendon is freer to move this way. but i guess tilting might also be difficult if it also involves inner melodies, dont know. hehehe, whats the point of me replying here, i dont even think im helping.

[jhon]

I have no problems with 4/5 trills except for the case of the OVERLAPPING 4/5 trill in Moonlight 3rd movt. 

Anyway, my 4th and 5th finger in RH is somwhat abnormal - they are too separate and almost form a right angle!  i suspect this is due to reaching far octaves...

[lufia]

i can do 4/5 trills now.

After about 1 year of mucking around with it.

It takes a lot of work. make sure u accent the notes, practice it till ur hand is tired than do it again when its not fatigue. Now i've got alot of muscle in the right part of my right hand. My 4/5 trill has more endurance than my 1-2 trill because i worked on it so much.

4/5 trill i helps heaps. it gives it alot of strenght to play many hard pieces. its like having fingers 2-3 instead of 4/5