Opus Clavicembalisticum - Have your say...

[prometheus]

Yes, I think they are different pieces.  There are three with SIMILAR names:

Opus Clavicembalisticum
Opus Clavisymphonicum
Opusculum Clavisymphonicum (vel claviorchestrale)

You and Pseudopianist are right. Another failure for fast reading and dyslexia.

[mlsmithz]

I've never heard it and am not altogether certain I'd like to hear it yet, as I've never heard anything by Sorabji and I suspect diving straight into the OC would be a bad place to start.  However, in another thread on these boards I solicited recommendations from such Sorabjiphiles as Messrs. Hinton and Carey for better starting points to get into his work, and while I haven't yet managed to set aside the cash to purchase their recommendations, it is something I plan to get around to doing some time soon.  Though my ears are usually good at parsing multiple melodies, most descriptions I've heard of the OC have led me to believe that there's so much going on at once for most of the piece that it might be impenetrable to me!

As for the leading dissident in this thread, I've read enough tiresome posts by him insulting anyone whose musical tastes and opinions do not mirror his own (which by all appearances seem to include Rachmaninov and little else) to have learned that it's futile to get him to respect the existence of differing opinions (and the people who hold them), much less accord them any merit.  So Etude, Mr. Carey, and co., you're probably better off just ignoring him.  Besides, reprehensible though his hypocritical bigotry may be, he is entitled not to like Sorabji.

[Etude]

I've never heard it and am not altogether certain I'd like to hear it yet, as I've never heard anything by Sorabji and I suspect diving straight into the OC would be a bad place to start.  However, in another thread on these boards I solicited recommendations from such Sorabjiphiles as Messrs. Hinton and Carey for better starting points to get into his work, and while I haven't yet managed to set aside the cash to purchase their recommendations, it is something I plan to get around to doing some time soon.  Though my ears are usually good at parsing multiple melodies, most descriptions I've heard of the OC have led me to believe that there's so much going on at once for most of the piece that it might be impenetrable to me!

As for the leading dissident in this thread, I've read enough tiresome posts by him insulting anyone whose musical tastes and opinions do not mirror his own (which by all appearances seem to include Rachmaninov and little else) to have learned that it's futile to get him to respect the existence of differing opinions (and the people who hold them), much less accord them any merit.  So Etude, Mr. Carey, and co., you're probably better off just ignoring him.  Besides, reprehensible though his hypocritical bigotry may be, he is entitled not to like Sorabji.

When you do purchase a recording of Sorabji's music, I hope you find it enjoyable.  Yes I agree, the OC is not the bet place to start with Sorabji, although this is the place where most people do start listening to Sorabji.  As a consequence of poor, no, disgusting performance and unfamiliarity with his style, it is often where they contemporaneously end.  His early works are the best place to start, Fantasie Espagnole etc.  Don't go anywhere near OC unless Jonathan Powell records it, until you are familiar with his Toccata no. 1 and Fourth Piano Sonata.  These works are quite similar to OC, being examples of his "Baroque" style.  Then you will be able to see how the recordings of OC do NOT represent his style at all.  Good Luck!

Yes, I agree on everything you said about about Mr. Pitch, and yes he is entitled to dislike Sorabji, but the way he expressed his feelings of the piece's quality (as if it were common knowledge and fact) is ridiculous and unacceptable.  "I don't like Sorabji", "I don't like Opus Clavicembalisticum", "I hate OC", are statements that are fine by me, although I would find it a shame that someone can't find enjoyment in Sorabji, when to me it's truly great music, but this is what he actually said:

Sorry, but that was so bad, I couldn't listen to all of it... I heard about a minute... and bits throughout and sorry but that was disgusting... i don't know how anyone can listen to that crap.....

And once again the only reason this f***ing thread has been created is because those idiots that somehow (god only knows how, but could probably be because of drugs) like this crap love to brag about how this piece is apparently fantastic and to tell anyone who doesn't appreciate it to f*** off!!!! I'm sorry, but the only reason this thread was created is to antagonise people like me and hodi and others.

Bugger off and stop writing about your bloody precious Opus clav-icantbebotheredtorememberhowthehellyouspellthelastpart... You imagine if every single person on this *** forum posted a new thread about their favourite piece.

We all know that the stuff it weird but weirdos still listen to it.... WE KNOW THAT!!! SO STOP BLOODY REMINDING US ETUDE!!!! and listen to something else.

And if anyone feels offended by what I say... TomPlik asked for our say on the matter...

This is my say...

He states all his opinions like they are completely factual, and in short has no respect for anyone elses tastes or opinions, for which there is no excuse. 

[xaos]

One thing thats been bothering me since Ive heard of this piece: what does Clavicembalisticum mean? Ballistic piano? I dunno...it would be great if someone could explain that to me. From what i heard of JCarey's link, it actually sounds nice, not as chromatic and weird as I thought it would be...

[Etude]

One thing thats been bothering me since Ive heard of this piece: what does Clavicembalisticum mean? Ballistic piano? I dunno...it would be great if someone could explain that to me. From what i heard of JCarey's link, it actually sounds nice, not as chromatic and weird as I thought it would be...

I quote Sorabji himself:

Opus = a work: Clavicembalum = a cymbalon with keys: plus termination = isticum = adjectival indicating belonging to or pertaining to.

So it basically means:  Work for Piano.   

[xaos]

Ah. thanks.

[Etude]

You're welcome.   

[JCarey]

I agree that we shouldn't be offended by Perfect_Pitch. After all, he is probably no older than 12.

Perfect_Pitch, try listening to this (assuming it isn't past your bedtime, that is). It's another section of the OC. Tell me, how could you not find this beautiful?

[Etude]

It's absolutely stunning.  Thanks for reminding me about it John. 

[Etude]

By the way, what do you use to make these recording excerpts?

[JCarey]

By the way, what do you use to make these recording excerpts?

https://www.goldwave.com/ 

[Etude]

Thanks.   

[tompilk]

From what I have heard said in this thread, Sorabji = marmite. Love it or hate it. I love it, as you probably have realized by now, and I am not angry at the people who dislike it, but I hate people who do not give the piece a chance.

Here's a synthesized recording of the 4th movement of the OC that I made - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/fantasia.mp3

Amazing...

[JCarey]

Sorabji = marmite. Love it or hate it. I love it

But why? Why Sorabji?! I don't see composers like Schoenberg, Xenakis, Boulez, Ferneyhough, etc. getting such dislike or even hatred directed at them. And they, unlike Sorabji, were avant garde composers. Most of their works, unlike Sorabji, were atonal. So why is it that Sorabji is the one that gets all the hatred? It doesn't make sense!

And, in my experience, the majority of the people who claim to "hate" Sorabji are either idiots like Perfect_Pitch, inexperienced children, or merely ignorant, not having heard his music yet criticizing it anyway. I have seen people on this forum completely CONVERT to "Sorabjism" ever since I got here - people who first claimed that his pieces were an "insult to music", and then later claimed that he was one of their favorite composers. Even in the real world, I have introduced Sorabji to people, and he soon became a favorite composer of theirs.

So... what can I conclude?

[bernhard]

But why? Why Sorabji?! I don't see composers like Schoenberg, Xenakis, Boulez, Ferneyhough, etc. getting such dislike or even hatred directed at them. And they, unlike Sorabji, were avant garde composers. Most of their works, unlike Sorabji, were atonal. So why is it that Sorabji is the one that gets all the hatred? It doesn't make sense!

So... what can I conclude?

You can conclude that no one has yet made a few provocative threads about these composers. As an experiment try it, and you will see that they get the same amount of flack/devotion.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Etude]

But why? Why Sorabji?! I don't see composers like Schoenberg, Xenakis, Boulez, Ferneyhough, etc. getting such dislike or even hatred directed at them. And they, unlike Sorabji, were avant garde composers. Most of their works, unlike Sorabji, were atonal. So why is it that Sorabji is the one that gets all the hatred? It doesn't make sense!

I have always wondered this.

And, in my experience, the majority of the people who claim to "hate" Sorabji are either idiots like Perfect_Pitch, inexperienced children, or merely ignorant, not having heard his music yet criticizing it anyway. I have seen people on this forum completely CONVERT to "Sorabjism" ever since I got here - people who first claimed that his pieces were an "insult to music", and then later claimed that he was one of their favorite composers. Even in the real world, I have introduced Sorabji to people, and he soon became a favorite composer of theirs.

Indeed, some people are starting to discover his greatness beyond the terrible recordings of OC.

[Etude]

And I deleted your PM, Mr. Pitch.

Thank you for your time.

[perfect_pitch]

So you deleted my message??? Then it just proves that you don't give a damn about anyone elses opinion and can't be bothered reading both sides to the story, you stubborn bugger.

[Etude]

Yes, it's frustrating isn't it.

[mlsmithz]

Define: irony.

So you deleted my message??? Then it just proves that you don't give a *** about anyone elses opinion and can't be bothered reading both sides to the story, you stubborn bugger.

Amazing.

[Etude]

Define: irony.

So you deleted my message??? Then it just proves that you don't give a *** about anyone elses opinion and can't be bothered reading both sides to the story, you stubborn bugger.

Amazing.

And hypocrisy.

[tompilk]

This is getting amusing 
Tom.
P.S. Perfect_pitch is a bit odd - let's ignore him from now on

[Etude]

Sure.

Anyway, I have another game of 'spot the difference: OC version'.   
(Thanks for telling me about GoldWave, John  .)

The first half is an excerpt from Ogdon's recording of the last movement (Coda-Stretta), then after a short pause, is the same section played by Madge:

https://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2WC4J3B6KCKPU1WXOJF4ZELY7Z


This is so much fun.   

[tompilk]

This is so much fun.   

Yup

[JCarey]

I'm seriously thinking of contacting Nils about Perfect_Pitch. Perfect_Pitch deserves a warning for his behavior, if not a ban if it continues. Harassing and insulting members both in the forums and through the private message system is completely uncalled for.

[Etude]

I'm seriously thinking of contacting Nils about Perfect_Pitch. Perfect_Pitch deserves a warning for his behavior, if not a ban if it continues. Harassing and insulting members both in the forums and through the private message system is completely uncalled for.

Did he PM you?

[tompilk]

That perfect_pitch is a bad egg... 

[Etude]

This was his message (I got sent an email by the site, even though I deleted the actual message)


"So.... I'm an absolute *** moron am I???

piss of you little *** turd, I think i know a bit more about music that you ever will. The beginning of the 20th century led to the downfall of tonality and musical genius because of schoenberg and his stupid ways.

Sorabji isn't music, it's a very pithy excuse for the music to sound like something more sophisticated that it is. What is it??? It's RANDOM NOTES PEOPLE... And one day your going to wake up and realise that. Hopefully soon better than never.

You and those other idiots are like thos artistic weirdos who go into art galleries and look at paintings of something that looks like it was drawn by a blind 4 year old with finger paint and try and justify as being some imaginely creative shite that is supposed to transcend art.

THAT IS WHY I HATE THIS MUSIC AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!! Because you try and justify your music as being better than anything else. "



*Sigh*

[JCarey]

This was his message (I got sent an email by the site, even though I deleted the actual message)

"So.... I'm an absolute *** moron am I???

piss of you little *** turd, I think i know a bit more about music that you ever will. The beginning of the 20th century led to the downfall of tonality and musical genius because of schoenberg and his stupid ways.

Sorabji isn't music, it's a very pithy excuse for the music to sound like something more sophisticated that it is. What is it??? It's RANDOM NOTES PEOPLE... And one day your going to wake up and realise that. Hopefully soon better than never.

You and those other idiots are like thos artistic weirdos who go into art galleries and look at paintings of something that looks like it was drawn by a blind 4 year old with finger paint and try and justify as being some imaginely creative shite that is supposed to transcend art.

THAT IS WHY I HATE THIS MUSIC AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!! Because you try and justify your music as being better than anything else. "

*sigh*

Wow... that's all I have to say.

Well, it's obvious his profile is a lie. He's not 21, and nobody can convince me otherwise. He writes like a 10-year-old, and that's giving him a lot of credit.

He should be warned/banned for that message. I don't even know what to say to that...

[tompilk]

Im amazed that he could be so nasty about something which everyone does for fun... I'm 15 and I would never dream of insulting anyone like that - he should be banned - report him. As soon as possible please. I'm not comfortable around people like that... thanks
Tom
P.S. Sorabji is genius in my opinion Perfect_pitch. I never offend anyone - they're entitled to thier own opinions...

[JCarey]

Mr. Pitch, I've just reported you to Nils.

[Etude]

Mr. Pitch, I've just reported you to Nils.

Good.

[tompilk]

Mr. Pitch, I've just reported you to Nils.

Good.

Fantastic

[Etude]

Good.

Fantastic

Excellent.

[tompilk]

good

fantastic

excellent

Brilliant

[Etude]

Good.

Fantastic

Excellent.

Brilliant

Outstanding.

[da jake]

OK. That fantasia is pretty cool. It sounds like some kind of distorted Bach-Busoni transcription and I really like it. That Ogdon excerpt from OC was also convincing.

I'm definitely looking forward to proper recordings of Sorabji greatest works.

...But better than Bach? Please. Tone down the hyperbole. I get excited when I talk about Alkan, but I don't suggest that he's a greater composer than Schubert.

PS: This perfect_pitch guy is a cretin who should be dealt with my the administrators.

[Ruro]

P.S. Sorabji is genius in my opinion Perfect_pitch. I never offend anyone - they're entitled to thier own opinions...

Interesting, I'm not arguing you tompilk, but at dinner a few weeks ago, my brother commented on the way I dress. Then my dad is like, "Don't say that about your brother"
My brother replies, "I'm entitled to my own opinion"... but my dad replied, "Yeah, but it doesn't mean it's a good thing to share".

Atleast something similar to that. In no way am I saying your opinion is offensive, without even reading it, I can say it most likely isn't But some people do choose to abuse this "Freedom of speech" thing, that's where you get your issues :/

Sorry, I just felt like I had to address that O_o Actually, I havn't read this thread, or this page anyway, but Perfect_Pitch maybe a person abusing the power...

And on a sidenote, I swear Perfect_Pitch made some very good contributions in the past and stuff, I guess he is a changed man O_o (or woman, I dunno)

[Etude]

OK. That fantasia is pretty cool. It sounds like some kind of distorted Bach-Busoni transcription and I really like it. That Ogdon excerpt from OC was also convincing.

I'm definitely looking forward to proper recordings of Sorabji greatest works.

...But better than Bach? Please. Tone down the hyperbole. I get excited when I talk about Alkan, but I don't suggest that he's a greater composer than Schubert.

PS: This perfect_pitch guy is a cretin who should be dealt with my the administrators.

I agree on nearly everything you said;  I don't think different composers should even be compared at all.

[xvimbi]

This is a most hilarious thread. I don't even know where to start...

But why? Why Sorabji?! I don't see composers like Schoenberg, Xenakis, Boulez, Ferneyhough, etc. getting such dislike or even hatred directed at them. And they, unlike Sorabji, were avant garde composers. Most of their works, unlike Sorabji, were atonal. So why is it that Sorabji is the one that gets all the hatred? It doesn't make sense!

It makes perfect sense. If people would fervently promote works by Schoenberg, Xenakis, Boulez, or Ferneyhough, like the Sorabji-ites are promoting the OC, there would be just as much heat.

If this discussion would be about what really matters in such cases, namely whether one likes something or not, then it would be a good discussion, albeit a bit bland.

It's not a useful discussion, because the Sorabji-ites try to force the OC down the throat of everyone around, claiming it's the greatest piece of music and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant.

It's not a useful discussion, because the anti-Sorabji-ites try to spit the OC back out again, claiming it's the greatest piece of *** and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant.

And, in my experience, the majority of the people who claim to "hate" Sorabji are either idiots like Perfect_Pitch, inexperienced children, or merely ignorant, not having heard his music yet criticizing it anyway.

This is what I mean. That's not a way to win over people. Mind you, the anti-Sorabji-ites are not a bit better, either.

When you do purchase a recording of Sorabji's music, I hope you find it enjoyable.  Yes I agree, the OC is not the bet place to start with Sorabji, although this is the place where most people do start listening to Sorabji.  As a consequence of poor, no, disgusting performance and unfamiliarity with his style, it is often where they contemporaneously end.

I highly doubt it would make a difference if one listens to Madge, Ogden, or Powell. Who would notice whether Madge played a C# instead of a C, whether he played the wrong chord, or even improvised entire sections. The character of the piece is recognizable in any case and does allow to determine if one wants to look into it further or not.

It is not helpful to say, "well, you are telling me you don't like the OC. Wait until you hear a real recording. In the meantime, believe me, it's the greatest piece ever written."

I don't participate (anymore) in talking about the piece itself (I simply don't like it that much that I would again devote several hours of my undivided attention), I am only trying to point out some flaws in how this discussion is being conducted. Now, continue to bicker.

[Etude]

It's not a useful discussion, because the Sorabji-ites try to force the OC down the throat of everyone around, claiming it's the greatest piece of music and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant

We have never done anything like that.  We're not trying to shove OC down anyone's throat, and we don't accuse other people of being ignorant because of their personal tastes.  We are saying it's ignorant to say things like this:

This thread should be burned as well as the moron who started it. (No offence, but it's true).

Well lets see.... from the passages i have heard and what I have read aobout the piece these things come to mind:

        Almost no melody
 +  nearly random bunch of hyper virtuosic notes (you cannot really call them musical)
+  the fact that the only reason why people say they like it is to make themselves feel
     special

= piece of ***

Sorry, but that was so bad, I couldn't listen to all of it... I heard about a minute... and bits throughout and sorry but that was disgusting... i don't know how anyone can listen to that crap.....

And once again the only reason this f***ing thread has been created is because those idiots that somehow (god only knows how, but could probably be because of drugs) like this crap love to brag about how this piece is apparently fantastic and to tell anyone who doesn't appreciate it to f*** off!!!! I'm sorry, but the only reason this thread was created is to antagonise people like me and hodi and others.

Bugger off and stop writing about your bloody precious Opus clav-icantbebotheredtorememberhowthehellyouspellthelastpart... You imagine if every single person on this *** forum posted a new thread about their favourite piece.

We all know that the stuff it weird but weirdos still listen to it....  WE KNOW THAT!!! SO STOP BLOODY REMINDING US ETUDE!!!! and listen to something else.

And if anyone feels offended by what I say... TomPlik asked for our say on the matter...

This is my say...

"So.... I'm an absolute *** moron am I???

piss of you little *** turd, I think i know a bit more about music that you ever will. The beginning of the 20th century led to the downfall of tonality and musical genius because of schoenberg and his stupid ways.

Sorabji isn't music, it's a very pithy excuse for the music to sound like something more sophisticated that it is. What is it??? It's RANDOM NOTES PEOPLE... And one day your going to wake up and realise that. Hopefully soon better than never.

You and those other idiots are like thos artistic weirdos who go into art galleries and look at paintings of something that looks like it was drawn by a blind 4 year old with finger paint and try and justify as being some imaginely creative shite that is supposed to transcend art.

THAT IS WHY I HATE THIS MUSIC AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!! Because you try and justify your music as being better than anything else. "

I respect the opinion of anyone who doesn't like OC, but these comments are ridiculous.

[tompilk]

We "Sorabji-ites" arenot in any way forcing you to listen and love Sorabji, but some of ou anti-Sorabji guys are offensive. Hae your own opinion, but don't hurt anyone with it.

[Etude]

I prefer the word "Sorabjian".   

[prometheus]

It's not a useful discussion, because the Sorabji-ites try to force the OC down the throat of everyone around, claiming it's the greatest piece of music and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant.

I called Perfect Pitch a close minded bigot because his reasoning is flawed and he attacks people personally and agressively, even insulting people. He said he cannot accept people liking things like Sorabji because he hates it. And therefore he hates those people too. I still don't think he is ignorant. That was Contrapunctus, I think. He should know one can't write a fugue without a subject.

I highly doubt it would make a difference if one listens to Madge, Ogden, or Powell. Who would notice whether Madge played a C# instead of a C, whether he played the wrong chord, or even improvised entire sections. The character of the piece is recognizable in any case and does allow to determine if one wants to look into it further or not.

Pardon me? Firstly, I am amazed at this. I always though I didn't hear every well. But playing wrong notes is going to be lethal. Surely, most people not interested in music wouldn't hear the difference. But serious musicans with trained ears? Either, I am superior to most people in terms of musical perception. Or I am delusional. Also the musicality and intelligence that Powell brings to Sorabji give listening Sorabji a whole new level of depth compared to Madge and Odgen. I can't imagine someone with a good ear not noticing this.
 
Most people have been pointing to the Powell and Haberman recordings instead of to the OC. So how are we pushing this piece? We aren't. We may be pushing Sorabji though.
It's just that the fact that the OC has the reputation of being the must difficult piano piece attracts the attention of people unfamiliar with Sorabji but interested nonetheless. It is not the ideas that Sorabji brings to music that attracts people. Though some people may find they are very interested in these nonetheless.

It is not helpful to say, "well, you are telling me you don't like the OC. Wait until you hear a real recording. In the meantime, believe me, it's the greatest piece ever written."

I agree this is really unsatisfying. Thats why I have been pointing people to other Sorabji works which do have very good recording. People should get the Toccata No.1, if they are interested. It's only one CD so its about 4 times as cheap. The recording is excellent and it is much shorter. The Powell performance is truely musical and it is a totally different experience compared to Ogden playing OC. I never dared to listen to Madge. Also, I haven't seen anyone claim it to be the greatest piece ever.

I don't participate (anymore) in talking about the piece itself (I simply don't like it that much that I would again devote several hours of my undivided attention), I am only trying to point out some flaws in how this discussion is being conducted. Now, continue to bicker.

I agree that discussion is not going anywhere in terms of pro and anti-Sorabji. But surely your post is quite flawed for someone who wants to point out flaws.

I also do wonder why there isn't such a Schoenberg, Boulez or Xenakis fanbase? Also, lets note that Sorabji is much more similar to Bach than to these three. Sorabji hated Schoenberg, for the same reason as Perfect Pitch, yeah the irony(again!). Sorabji also disliked Stravinsky for similar reasons. Sorabji liked order and structure, eventhough his order was extremely thick and maximalistic. He disliked randomness, structurelessness and lack of form, so it seems. But I haven't read any of his essays, so I can't be too sure.

[Etude]

There is a HUGE difference between the interpretations of Sorabji by Powell, and Madge.

xvimbi, do you have any other recordings of Sorabji's major works.  You can't argue there isn't a huge difference from Madge's OC.

[Etude]

Pardon me? Firstly, I am amazed at this. I always though I didn't hear every well. But playing wrong notes is going to be lethal. Surely, most people not interested in music wouldn't hear the difference. But serious musicans with trained ears? Either, I am superior to most people in terms of musical perception. Or I am delusional.

Indeed.  The sheer amount of dissonance Madge adds to OC is enough to put people off for life.

[JCarey]

It's not a useful discussion, because the Sorabji-ites try to force the OC down the throat of everyone around, claiming it's the greatest piece of music and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant.

You must not have read the thread, then... I don't recall anybody on this thread saying that it was the greatest piece written. Surely not I or Etude. If somebody did, then at least I can safely say that it was not me. Nobody tried to force the piece down anybody's throat. My "ignorant" comment included the phrases "in my experience" and "the majority of", therefore, I did not accuse "everyone", as you said, of being ignorant. Leave it to people like you and Perfect_Pitch to make people like Etude and I look like Nazis.

It's not a useful discussion, because the anti-Sorabji-ites try to spit the OC back out again, claiming it's the greatest piece of *** and accusing everyone who doesn't agree as being ignorant.

You are absolutely right. They have done so. I can even go back and quote all the instances of this. But we, the "Sorabji-ites", have done no such thing.

And I hardly consider calling somebody ignorant an "accusation". Being ignorant is not a crime. However, criticizing a piece of music when you most likely haven't even heard it (which I believe to be the case with Perfect_Pitch) is.

I highly doubt it would make a difference if one listens to Madge, Ogden, or Powell. Who would notice whether Madge played a C# instead of a C, whether he played the wrong chord, or even improvised entire sections. The character of the piece is recognizable in any case and does allow to determine if one wants to look into it further or not.

That isn't really true. People get an entirely false impression of the character of the piece based on Madge and Ogden's recordings. It sounds monotonous and random. And neither of those descriptions fit the piece when played correctly (I know this because of the work I have done entering the piece, note by note, into Finale 2006)

It is not helpful to say, "well, you are telling me you don't like the OC. Wait until you hear a real recording. In the meantime, believe me, it's the greatest piece ever written."

Nobody said it was the greatest piece ever written.

I am only trying to point out some flaws in how this discussion is being conducted.

Perhaps you should fix the flaws in your own argument before attempting to shoot holes in ours.

[prometheus]

Well, I haven't heard Madge so I am not sure how bad it is. But certainly this must make a difference.

Also, I am not telling xvimbi, or anyone else to listen to the suggested good Sorabji discussions before they say they don't like Sorabji. But it shouldn't flaw arguments made. If you haven't heard it, don't assume things.

[tompilk]

I am now officially a "Sorabjian". Thank-you all.
Anyway, I have the Madge recording - I really want to hear Powell after everyone has raved about it.

Sorabji liked order and structure, eventhough his order was extremely thick and maximalistic. He disliked randomness, structurelessness and lack of form, so it seems. But I haven't read any of his essays, so I can't be too sure.

I think that this is one of the proofs and comments that makes Sorabji great for me.
Madge hasn't put me off for life but I still want to hear Powell.

[Etude]

You are absolutely right. They have done so. I can even go back and quote all the instances of this.

Ahem, I believe I already did this in your anti-Madge thread.   

Well, I haven't heard Madge so I am not sure how bad it is. But certainly this must make a difference.
 you haven't heard it, don't assume things.

Look up the page, where I posted a comparison between GDM and JO, and on John's thread: "GD Madge and the OC".