Why practice hands seperate first?

[pianolearner]

Why master a piece hands seperate first if when you come to play hands together it's like learning it all over again?

Isn't it better to break the piece down to the smallest size that you can master hands together from the start?

[bernhard]

The short answer:

Because technique (fingering/ways to move) and co-ordination are two different problems. If you start straightaway with hands together you will have all this problems at once, and will likely make many mistakes (more about that in a moment). By starting with hands separate, you can make sure that the movements and fingering are thoroughly ingrained before you move on to tackle the much more difficult problem of co-ordinating the hands.

On top of that, usually the left hand is weaker than the right. By going hands together straight away you never give the left hand a chance to develop and equal the right hand. In fact, your right hand will be limited by the left hand and working at a less than optimum speed. Meanwhile, the left hand, trying to keep up with the right will always be working in a state of fatigue. This is the perfect set-up for sloppy-sounding playing in the best case scenario and for an injury in the worst case scenario,

These are the obvious, superficial, reasons. But there is a deeper, hidden reason.

When you put hands together, in order to co-ordinate the hands, you will create system of cues and triggers where the movement of one hand triggers and cues the movement of the other. Most people are not even aware they are doing this (hence, deeper and hidden), but it is the only way you can play hands together. This system of cues will be deeply ingrained in your motor centres, and is commonly known as “hand memory”. Once something is ingrained in your hand memory, it will be there pretty much forever. If you go straight to hands together, even if it is a small passage, you will be making several mistakes (fingering, inappropriate movements – especially if you believe in slow practice – etc.). All these mistakes - which would be all right if done with hands separate – now get ingrained in your hand memory. By the time you realise what is going on, you will have to spend weeks to fix (sometimes it will not be possible) all these ingrained mistakes. So you will not save time, quite the opposite.

In fact, on the matter of time, people make the following fallacious calculation: “If I learn a piece with hands separate first, it will take three times longer to learn it than if I skip hands separate and go to hands together straight away”. This is fallacious because the real problem in playing the piano, is not playing the piano, but knowing your piece back to front. Learning it 3 times (RH,LH, HT) is going to provide you with the opportunity of a life time to truly dissect and learn your piece. So, not a bad idea at all

Now, instead of believing me, try this experiment: take two pieces of similar difficulty and learn one hands separate first, and the other hands together straightaway. If I am right, then the one you did with hands separate will be finished not only first, but it will sound much better.

Finally, you don’t need to learn a whole piece with hands separate before joining hands. It is perfectly all right to do that only on small passages (breaking a piece into smallest sections is a very sound idea), and when joining the passages to join them with hands together straight away. The only exception is counterpoint music (e.g. Bach) where you should learn not only the whole piece with separate hands but isolate each voice and learn each voice separately.

If you want more details, have a look at these threads where the subject has been discussed to exhaustion:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg27140.html#msg27140
(Hands together: when and how – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg44855.html#msg44855
(Hands together – dropping notes – when to learn HT and when to learn HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4797.msg45744.html#msg45744
(No skipped steps – Bernhard enlightens further and tells the usual places where students go wrong – Ht x HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4858.msg46087.html#msg46087
(Paul’s report on B’s method. Feedback from Bernhard including: HS x HT – Example: Lecuona’s malaguena – 7x20 – need to adjust and adapt – repeated note-groups – importance of HS – hand memory – 7 items only in consciousness – playing in automatic pilot - )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Dazzer]

well... bernhard beat me to it.
-------------------
anyway
okay here's my take on it.

if you were to learn both hands at the beginning, you would have to take in much more information from the score at once. Of course, its probably more efficient. But if you're not very experienced, or the score is very very complicated, you might run into some problems.

if you were to learn each hand separately, alot also depends on how you put them together. if you were to return to the score again, and work out both hands from there, you're basically starting from the beginning yes. But if you work it out from your own memory, and try combining each hand, you're putting together what you know.

So, i guess it all depends on your practicing technique. I use separate hands at times, as it speeds up the memorising of a certain section. But you should use it where you think it'd be helpful... and of course that requires abit of experience to know what you can and can't do.

[piazzo23]

Why master a piece hands seperate first if when you come to play hands together it's like learning it all over again?

Isn't it better to break the piece down to the smallest size that you can master hands together from the start?

If you feel you must learn it all over again, then you didn´t do all the hands separate practice that you needed.

HS practice is the aim to aquire motor memory the faster.
Practice a while Hanon Nº 1 with your RH, then practice H Nº 17 with your LH. When you do all the HS practice needed, you should be able to put them together effortlessly.
The same goes with a Bach Fuge.

[stevie]

i agree with bernhard, but are there exceptions, shouldnt easier pieces be played HT from the start?

so the degree of difficulty/complexity of the piece determines the method of learing...and this method is different for everyone, i would assume someone like libetta, berezovskjy, hamelin, are so advanced that they will not need to follow this process at all.....but at what point in your piano playing life you you stop the HS practice? how can you tell if youre advanced enough

barely possibly

[BoliverAllmon]

The short answer:

Because technique (fingering/ways to move) and co-ordination are two different problems. If you start straightaway with hands together you will have all this problems at once, and will likely make many mistakes (more about that in a moment). By starting with hands separate, you can make sure that the movements and fingering are thoroughly ingrained before you move on to tackle the much more difficult problem of co-ordinating the hands.

On top of that, usually the left hand is weaker than the right. By going hands together straight away you never give the left hand a chance to develop and equal the right hand. In fact, your right hand will be limited by the left hand and working at a less than optimum speed. Meanwhile, the left hand, trying to keep up with the right will always be working in a state of fatigue. This is the perfect set-up for sloppy-sounding playing in the best case scenario and for an injury in the worst case scenario,

These are the obvious, superficial, reasons. But there is a deeper, hidden reason.

When you put hands together, in order to co-ordinate the hands, you will create system of cues and triggers where the movement of one hand triggers and cues the movement of the other. Most people are not even aware they are doing this (hence, deeper and hidden), but it is the only way you can play hands together. This system of cues will be deeply ingrained in your motor centres, and is commonly known as “hand memory”. Once something is ingrained in your hand memory, it will be there pretty much forever. If you go straight to hands together, even if it is a small passage, you will be making several mistakes (fingering, inappropriate movements – especially if you believe in slow practice – etc.). All these mistakes - which would be all right if done with hands separate – now get ingrained in your hand memory. By the time you realise what is going on, you will have to spend weeks to fix (sometimes it will not be possible) all these ingrained mistakes. So you will not save time, quite the opposite.

In fact, on the matter of time, people make the following fallacious calculation: “If I learn a piece with hands separate first, it will take three times longer to learn it than if I skip hands separate and go to hands together straight away”. This is fallacious because the real problem in playing the piano, is not playing the piano, but knowing your piece back to front. Learning it 3 times (RH,LH, HT) is going to provide you with the opportunity of a life time to truly dissect and learn your piece. So, not a bad idea at all

Now, instead of believing me, try this experiment: take two pieces of similar difficulty and learn one hands separate first, and the other hands together straightaway. If I am right, then the one you did with hands separate will be finished not only first, but it will sound much better.

Finally, you don’t need to learn a whole piece with hands separate before joining hands. It is perfectly all right to do that only on small passages (breaking a piece into smallest sections is a very sound idea), and when joining the passages to join them with hands together straight away. The only exception is counterpoint music (e.g. Bach) where you should learn not only the whole piece with separate hands but isolate each voice and learn each voice separately.

If you want more details, have a look at these threads where the subject has been discussed to exhaustion:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg27140.html#msg27140
(Hands together: when and how – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg44855.html#msg44855
(Hands together – dropping notes – when to learn HT and when to learn HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4797.msg45744.html#msg45744
(No skipped steps – Bernhard enlightens further and tells the usual places where students go wrong – Ht x HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4858.msg46087.html#msg46087
(Paul’s report on B’s method. Feedback from Bernhard including: HS x HT – Example: Lecuona’s malaguena – 7x20 – need to adjust and adapt – repeated note-groups – importance of HS – hand memory – 7 items only in consciousness – playing in automatic pilot - )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

here is a better short answer.........



becaue Bernhard said so.

LOL

[bernhard]

i agree with bernhard, but are there exceptions, shouldnt easier pieces be played HT from the start?

so the degree of difficulty/complexity of the piece determines the method of learing...and this method is different for everyone, i would assume someone like libetta, berezovskjy, hamelin, are so advanced that they will not need to follow this process at all.....but at what point in your piano playing life you you stop the HS practice? how can you tell if youre advanced enough

barely possibly

You are randomly correct

[lostinidlewonder]

Not everyone does Hands Seperate first then go to together. In fact it is a matter of efficiency to determine which way you go. Personally I find doing it two hands together straight away cuts out a lot of time, especially if you know what sound needs to be produced and you can use that to guide a lot of your playing. Many of my students are the same, prefering two hands rather than one, especially students studying Bach.

When the music becomes too difficult to play together then you should think about breaking it into hands seperate. HOWEVER, we should question if we really should be playing pieces where hands together is not accessible without hours of seperate hands work. To me a piece which forces this upon us is too hard, move on find something where you can crack hands together more immediately. I tell my students Hand Seperate work should really be only a few minutes here or there, not hours.

Of course this does not apply to beginners or early intermediate students who should take time and study the seperate hands. They should be consistiently faced with problems, that is the way we all start out at the piano! But for students who generally know how to get their hand around the keyboard, they should be careful not to waste their time on over ambitious repetoire which evades the hands together action.

Of course this is very different for each and every person. I have students who work tirelessly on hands seperate then knit it hands together when they are confidient. I am not one to tear away peoples security blanket and if that works for them fine, but we should awlays be wary of studying pieces where getting to hand together is taking too long.

[stevie]

You are randomly correct

so i guess we should all use our own intuition to tell when we are at that kind of level?

or is there a random thing we can do to test our ability?

actually, i randomly answered my own question

[bernhard]

so i guess we should all use our own intuition to tell when we are at that kind of level?

or is there a random thing we can do to test our ability?

actually, i randomly answered my own question

(female) intuition is the result of two million years without thinking. 

It depends on your intuition. Intuition is just another name for unconscious behaviour. We know, but we are not aware how we know it. Of course once upon a time that "intuition" had to be programmed in the unconscious. Most virtuosi did that at an early age and cannot remember. They just "know". So if you are Cziffra or Rubinstein, go ahead and use your intuition. Otherwise, put some time into programming it so that eventually you can use it.

In the meantime use the 7 repeats rule. Try the passage hands together seven times. If after the end of seven times you have either mastered it or experienced promising progress keep at it HT. However, if after 7 repeats you are sitll without a clue (fingering messed up, crap co-ordination, movements chaotic), then HS isa the way to go.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.