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Topic: 'Flying' fingers and young learners - what do u do...or not do?  (Read 3335 times)

Offline green

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This seems to be a problem with just about every student. But is it a problem that can be solved when dealing with young learners? About 5-12 years old?

One talented 7 year old - her fingers are everywhere, she plays beautifully, but it is not focused, it is not 'concentrated'. This would seem only a problem if it is interfereing with what she wants to hear, or if it is actually determing what she hears? If it is determing, then it is a limitation, at some point it probably then should be over come...but when?

 Is it something young learners must live with, or can it be solved through specific practice?

I have found that as soon as fingers are 'glued' to the keys, the pinky knuckle raised to produce an even curve to the fingers and a flat back of hand (elbow naturally moving out from the body), they have no 'strength' to play above a quiet dynamic and much less speed. With some students, they do gain greater 'control', but at the expense of 'expresiveness', which appears to be 'taking' something away from them. From their perspective.

I realize that this age group cannot really distinguish between elbow, wrist, knuckes, and usually are playing from the elbow with the fingers and wrist acting as a single unit. Again, is this then a physical limitation, in which case can we inform students how long they will have to wait?

Is it a physical inability, meaning the hand has not yet developed the strength or coordination to focus one finger to play while the others do not, can this be solved through training at an early stage?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: 'Flying' fingers and young learners - what do u do...or not do?
Reply #1 on: October 18, 2005, 04:15:46 AM
One talented 7 year old - her fingers are everywhere, she plays beautifully, but it is not focused, it is not 'concentrated'. This would seem only a problem if it is interfering with what she wants to hear, or if it is actually determing what she hears? If it is determing, then it is a limitation, at some point it probably then should be over come...but when?

Young students usually rely on the teach to explain what is good and bad in sound production in the given pice they are studying. It is because of their listening inexperience to piano music and as a whole. However even novice musical students should have some sense of what sounds good and what sounds bad (I call it an inner musical ear). If you demonstrate a "bad" way to play the piece she is studying then demonstrate a "better" way to play it, if she can explain to you what factors she observe that contribute to both ways of playing, then she her inner ear should lined up right.

Of course this takes practice and persistence on the teachers behalf especially if the student doesn't listen to a lot of piano music. Ask questions, express small sections of the piece in a good/bad manner and ask her to explain what went right/wrong. At least that way you can gain some insight into her decision making and get her musical brain working, if she doesn't understand the why to good or bad expression at the piano in the given piece then you must take time to explain it and make it seem obvious/logical to her. But definatly get her to say with her own words what she hears is right or wrong in your demonstration.

I have found that as soon as fingers are 'glued' to the keys, the pinky knuckle raised to produce an even curve to the fingers and a flat back of hand (elbow naturally moving out from the body), they have no 'strength' to play above a quiet dynamic and much less speed. With some students, they do gain greater 'control', but at the expense of 'expresiveness', which appears to be 'taking' something away from them. From their perspective.

With little kids sometimes their 5th finger is so fragile and weak it takes a lot of strain just to press down a key! Any isolated movements for the 5th is really out of the question for most beginners. I find we have to try to make them understand how to use the weight of the hand to give energy to the 5th when it needs to play. I tell them to imagine the entire side of their hand which connects to the 5th finger and down to their wrist acts as a weight to give the little finger support/balance and energy. Of course this has to be goverened with the teachers eye watching that they don't distort or do anything which looks inefficient or uncomfortable.

I also drill a few basic Hanon Excersises which gets the fingers moving and strengthens essential basic movements usually the ones that aim to strengthen 4 and 5 coordination which is the biggest problem for most beginning students.

Furthermore I like to make sure kids know the difference in touch when they drop onto a note, push off, control a centre above a group of notes/chords/arpeggio. Let them have a basic idea that when they reach a cresendo start softer then you normally would and grow louder, decresendo start much louder than you would and get softer. Big contrasts, then they later down the track it refines itself. Better than playing weakly and maintaining weakness, play exaggerated and tone it down.
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Offline green

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Re: 'Flying' fingers and young learners - what do u do...or not do?
Reply #2 on: October 18, 2005, 04:42:28 PM
Quote
Of course this takes practice and persistence on the teachers behalf especially if the student doesn't listen to a lot of piano music. Ask questions, express small sections of the piece in a good/bad manner and ask her to explain what went right/wrong. At least that way you can gain some insight into her decision making and get her musical brain working, if she doesn't understand the why to good or bad expression at the piano in the given piece then you must take time to explain it and make it seem obvious/logical to her. But definatly get her to say with her own words what she hears is right or wrong in your demonstration.

Play good and bad and ask what was wrong? How would she know? I'm speaking technically what is making the difference, and i'm assuming that the difference between good and bad playing is the performers technically facility, depite how good an ear they have.

What i am asking,  is whether 'correcting' flying fingers at an early stage makes any difference or not?

Quote
With little kids sometimes their 5th finger is so fragile and weak it takes a lot of strain just to press down a key!

I very seriously question this assumption, because i do have students for which it is not a problem, 5 years old.  Just how much 'strength' does it take to press down a key? IMO, the issue has absolutely nothing to do with strength (unless you're playing Rach 3rd), but the ability to co-ordinate the fingers to act inter-dependantly. 

what i am asking is whether others have found it benificial to begin at an early stage with something as simple as having stds slow down and try to keep the fingers 'down'...I find it nearly impossible with most stds, and so wonder if it matters at this stage...

Quote
I also drill a few basic Hanon Excersises which gets the fingers moving and strengthens essential basic movements usually the ones that aim to strengthen 4 and 5 coordination which is the biggest problem for most beginning students.

What is being 'strengthened' in these exercises? 4+5? But what exactly is being 'strengthened' in 4+5?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: 'Flying' fingers and young learners - what do u do...or not do?
Reply #3 on: October 19, 2005, 02:12:08 AM
Play good and bad and ask what was wrong? How would she know? I'm speaking technically what is making the difference, and i'm assuming that the difference between good and bad playing is the performers technically facility, depite how good an ear they have.

To me I have believed that producing good or bad sound almost totally depends on what you actually hear from within. We do not memorise what sound to produce in a given piece by memorising PHYSICAL action. These things are observed, studied, practiced and refined at first but we eventually put them aside and focus on the sound production. Or what action moves towards a better sound production.

We cannot let students get stuck in that observation of the physical action however. We must push them to listen to themselves and forget the physical action for the moment. If they know what an even sounding scale sounds like then they will see that if their fingers fly all over the place that ideal even sound is disrupted. In a string of single notes there will be always one note frustrating the student or causing discomfort, the teacher must pick it out and demonstrate to the student tools to deal with these difficulties. This is sometimes too interlectual for younger students to remember and apply so then you just spoonfeed them instead of trying to explain it.

A problem can arise if observing bad sound production is not worrying the student enough to make changes to their physical action. I have some younger students for instance who just like to play the notes, like typing keys on a keyboard or playing computer games, this button then that then these two. Sometimes young children just do not care enough about the right and wrong sound, it doesn't interest them. This is where musical immaturity can effect their progress. All good musicians care a great deal about the sound they are creating and constantly listen to themselves closely when they play, if this habit is not started somewhere then you are not going to get very far in the quality of your playing. You also cannot force this care that isn't the teachers responsibility. I am happy that none of my students now are like that though *phew* :P

The physical action is controlled by what you hear, that is hard to describe but the beginniner student should accept it as true. Eventually they will realise what it means. For all experienced pianists if we say to them, play the opening chord of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, that Cminor chord, they all can imagine the shape of their hands and how they would excecute it. They all can sense the force that their body will push into the keyboard before doing it. But a beginner has no concept of this. They know it would sound loud but they don't have that automatic response or sense of their physical action as a more experienced player would. This is why we must let them observe action and sound as much as possible and practicing making decisions.

The teacher must demonstrate to the student so that the student can start to making decisions and observe "right" and wrong" sound and action at the keyboard. I can imagine a student who never listening to themselves while playing will play like a robot, relying on physical action to produce the sound rather than their ear which controls their sound thus controlling the physical action.

In such a subjective issue as piano playing we have to be guided by compasses, good and bad, rather than laws which are set and inflexible (eg: the old fashioned idea of keeping constantly curled fingers while playing as opposed to flattened fingers which changes shape but always maintains a "relaxed" form.)  This idea of relaxed is very subjective and fits perfectly with music, it is a flexible tool to use yeilding with the bends and contortions of music. So too is the tool of LISTENING to yourself a subjective tool which moves alongisde music all the time. We can only improve our listening tool by being exposed to observing good/bad piano playing both in sound/action. Sound is usually much more obvious, action is harder for beginners to pick out of course and thus the teacher is responsible for laying some foundation for their understanding as to what is good and bad physical action.

What i am asking, is whether 'correcting' flying fingers at an early stage makes any difference or not?

If correcting it changes the sound then it will. I have a beginner student who first kept her fingers that didn't play curled up into her hand. It did not effect the quality of sound because the pieces she played at first did not demand that they stay open. Of course when we moved to harder pieces which demanded more of the fingers to work she hear how the sound was disrupted with her curled up fingers and how uncomfrotable it was, so we worked out a way to make it feel more comfortable with a few experiments and at the end of the lesson she knew logically how to deal with the new idea of using more of her fingers and knew how to work against her fingers curling up even though they did now and then but she knew, oops! shouldn't do that because it makes this bit harder.

Correct things if it effects the sound of pieces she is studying. The teacher must make a judgement as to if it does or not.


I very seriously question this assumption, because i do have students for which it is not a problem, 5 years old. Just how much 'strength' does it take to press down a key? IMO, the issue has absolutely nothing to do with strength (unless you're playing Rach 3rd), but the ability to co-ordinate the fingers to act inter-dependantly.
Notice that I said sometimes in my assumption not always. Finger independance, using the finger to press down a note with only the isolated action of the finger is not something I would teach beginners. But being able to control a string of notes and play it even and balance utilising the 5th is very important. How you do it of course there are many ways but I would avoid asking them to find energy isolated in the muscle of the little finger alone to play the notes. That is why the idea of using the weight of the hand to give the 5th more strength is a good tool to give beginner students. It is only a tool which i have found beneficial for students with weakened fingers, know how to use the weight of the hand to support weak fingers. Of course these fingers develop in strength but all beginner are faced with the weakness in some fingers at first. I don't like to shrug my shoulders and say, well as you learn more pieces your fingers will get stronger. I like to think we can take action and actively impove their fingers. Hanon then to me have been like Weight training for the fingers of my beginners rather than scales. Alterations to hanon excersises to practice and strengthen students personal physical weakness is a matter for the teacher to consider.
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