questions about perfect pitch....

[casparma]

1, for cdefgab, they have their names as follow:

do re mi fa so la si

why different name??


2, secondly, as the topic implies that I am training myself perfect pitch. what's the difference between  a middle c and a c which is an octave higher? I mean, one is higher in pitch of course, but since they are both called c, what property do they have in common??


thanks alot for response

[prometheus]

Why Do for every note? That wouldn't make sense? Is there another alternalive?

Do, Re, Mi aren't really names. They are a syllables used for singing. This is called solmization. The origin of solmization is India. Today indian classical music uses Sa Re Ga Pa Dha Ni Sa. So they have different syllables.

Do is the first note of the scale or tonality. In D major, Do is the D note. There is no C and C# is the Ti.

An octave is a doubles frequency. We use 261.6 Hz for the middle C. So the C an octave higher will be 523.2 Hz. Two octaves above middle C is 1046.4, etc.

I don't see what this has to do with perfect pitch.

[casparma]

Thanks prometheus for the response...

the reason I ask this in regarding perfect pitch is that I learn that from a lecture that perfect pitch is a skill to hear the color of a pitch... like we can visualize color, and call it, eg, orange, red, or blue. However, in visual color, red is red, there is no such thing as "higher" or "lower" red, but in music, as there is higher c, or lower c, but distinguish them as same color, but indeed, they are different sounds....so...

can any one describe the puzzle I am facing??

thanks alot

ps, please do reply if my question is not yet clear....

[prometheus]

I don't have perfect pitch but I do hear a difference in all the notes of the western chromatic scale (A A# B C C# D D# etc). All notes have a different twang, or hum or character. Call it pitch colour.

When you get very high or very low on the piano the 'colours' stay the same. But the high notes are brighter, more white. And the low notes are darker, more grey.

[casparma]

thanks prometheus, but I am little perplexed that you said that you can hear a difference between notes on chromatic scale but you dont have perfect pitch...

Do you mean that you can hear a difference between them, but you cant distinguish what note it is when only a note is pressed individually??

[prometheus]

Yeah, I have no idea what note is which. I don't have the 'pitch colours' in my memory. I can't retain and recall the quality. But then again, I never did hard practice on this subject. But there is also the problem that I don't know a good method to learn it. Plus, I have lots of time to spend on my relative pitch.

I think most people can hear that F# is quite twangy and sharp while Eb is really laid back. There is a tension in the F# while Eb is stable. This is the same to all people, which suggests this is really just like colour. Assosiation real colours with pitches, synaesthesia, seems to be totally random. Each person assosiates totally different colours to pitches. This is also the case with other forms of synaesthesia. One person may think the number eight is red while another thinks it is blue, etc.

So, I only hear 'pitch colour' when I sit behind the piano and play a note to hear its pitch colour and then compare it to another notes 'pitch colour'. I do know that I remember that Eb is laid back and stable, but I have absolutely no memory of this actual colouration of the pitch Eb.

I think I do remember the sounds of very important notes in pieces I really know well. I heard using this is a way to learn perfect pitch.

[abell88]

I think most people can hear that F# is quite twangy and sharp while Eb is really laid back.

Well, what about G flat (seems like it should be mellow to me) and D# (all pointy)? I don't think *most* people hear things that way at all.

Regarding perfect pitch (which has been recently discussed in great detail somewhere else on the board), I don't have it, but my understanding is that some people with perfect pitch  do associate pitches with colours and others don't.

[violinist]

Pitch and color?  I don't know what that's all about.  I'm not sure what is perfect pitch.  I've had many friends and other musicians say that I have perfect pitch.  I have no real idea what that is though.  I was probably born with this ability whatever it really is.  I'm sure there are different degrees of it as well.

[casparma]

hmm..

I was always thinking how did I learn to recognise color and memorise its correct name...and the conclusion is that it just comes so naturally, if you are exposed to an environment where you need to be able to recognise color....

btw, when I say "pitch color", I mean not something red, blue, orange, etc.. but metaphorically compared with color...


whatever, thanks for all the replies.

[xvimbi]

Perfect pitch, better named as absolute pitch, is the ability to identify a note by name without the benefit of a reference note. It essentially means being able to tell the frequency of a note with great accuracy.

Relative pitch is the ability to identify a note in reference to another given note. This is essentailly interval recognition.

If a person has any other sensation when hearing a tone, then this is called synaesthesia. Some see colors, other smell smells, etc.

If someone says 'Eb sounds laid back', then this person must have either perfect pitch as well as synaesthesia, or must have synaesthesia combined with relative pitch as well as must have heard a reference note whose pitch was given, or is simply pulling your leg.

The term 'color of a pitch' is often used, but confusing and probably comes from the fact that pitch is physically best described as the frequency of a sound wave. Color is the frequency of an electromagnetic wave. Sound and light thus share the property 'frequency', but they are fundamentally entirely different.

[bernhard]

The term 'color of a pitch' is often used, but confusing and probably comes from the fact that pitch is physically best described as the frequency of a sound wave. Color is the frequency of an electromagnetic wave. Sound and light thus share the property 'frequency', but they are fundamentally entirely different.

Nice definitions.

However I am not sure the one in the quote is what most musicians mean by it. The frequency of a sound wave is of course its "pitch", not its "color".

Abby Whiteside used to be very annoyed about the mention of "colour" which she regarded as a inappropriate and useless metaphor.

Then you have some who talk about "colour" when they are actually talking about "volume", that is how loud or how soft a note is played. (which depends on the height of the wave)

But I believe that most musicians when they talk about "colurs" and use sentences like "so and so has a varied pallette of colours", they are referring to "timbre", which is a very non-intuitive concept and is the particular pattern of overtones of an instrument (which is why a clarinet sounds different from a tuba even though both may be playing the same pitch at the same volume). In a clarinet (or a tuba) the "colour" is pretty much fixed, and in an orchestra "colour" is obtained by combining the different overtone patterns of the different insturments. In the piano it can be varied throuh register, pedal use and specific combinations of notes, so a piano can actually emulate (to a certain extent) the colours of an orchestra - if the pianist knwows what he is doing.

PersonallyI tend to agree with Whiteside. Talking about "colour" confuses the issue, and is similar to wine critics talking about wine (which I find mildly irritating)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

But I believe that most musicians when they talk about "colurs" and use sentences like "so and so has a varied pallette of colours", they are referring to "timbre", which is a very non-intuitive concept and is the particular pattern of overtones of an instrument (which is why a clarinet sounds different from a tuba even though both may be playing the same pitch at the same volume). In a clarinet (or a tuba) the "colour" is pretty much fixed, and in an orchestra "colour" is obtained by combining the different overtone patterns of the different insturments. In the piano it can be varied throuh register, pedal use and specific combinations of notes, so a piano can actually emulate (to a certain extent) the colours of an orchestra - if the pianist knwows what he is doing.

I didn't want to mention that meaning of 'color' (timbre), or any other metaphorical ones, but wanted to restrict my comments to pure notes.

Talking about "colour" confuses the issue, and is similar to wine critics talking about wine (which I find mildly irritating)

Was that a typo, or intended (I mean the wine critcs talking about WINE)

[prometheus]

We are talking about the spectrum of pitch. Both light waves and sound waves have frequencies. Humans are very able to distingush the frequency of light waves. But not for sound waves. But apperently this is just as possible.

Xvimbi, as far as I know I don't have perfect pitch nur the natural ability to learn it really fast, though I am not sure about the last. But I do hear differences in the character and properties of each note. I was under the impression everyone has this ability. Sure, it is the first step to perfect pitch. Are you telling me you don't hear this? Or Bernhard? Or anyone else?
Sure, it is very sublte but still I can hear it if I get the chance to really focus on it.

If you look as the assosiations people make with different keys. F# major is a bright sharp key. Eb major is often called soothing. Think about the idea of more sharps making a key  more bright and lively, and more flats making a key darker and passive. This seems universal. Though colours assosiated with keys and notes aren't.

Of course we aren't talking about timbre. But different instruments/timbre, high range and low range, soft and hard, do confuse the perception of the 'pitch quality' in terms of its position in the spectrum.

I don't hear colours in music. But for synesthesia in music, perfect pitch is a requirement. Otherwise, the colours you 'hear' would be random. But this is just a brain defict, not a skill per se. Though it can ignite creativity and unique perspective.

[bernhard]

We are talking about the spectrum of pitch. Both light waves and sound waves have frequencies. Humans are very able to distingush the frequency of light waves. But not for sound waves. But apperently this is just as possible.

Xvimbi, as far as I know I don't have perfect pitch nur the natural ability to learn it really fast, though I am not sure about the last. But I do hear differences in the character and properties of each note. I was under the impression everyone has this ability. Sure, it is the first step to perfect pitch. Are you telling me you don't hear this? Or Bernhard? Or anyone else?
Sure, it is very sublte but still I can hear it if I get the chance to really focus on it.

If you look as the assosiations people make with different keys. F# major is a bright sharp key. Eb major is often called soothing. Think about the idea of more sharps making a key  more bright and lively, and more flats making a key darker and passive. This seems universal. Though colours assosiated with keys and notes aren't.

Of course we aren't talking about timbre. But different instruments/timbre, high range and low range, soft and hard, do confuse the perception of the 'pitch quality' in terms of its position in the spectrum.

I don't hear colours in music. But for synesthesia in music, perfect pitch is a requirement. Otherwise, the colours you 'hear' would be random. But this is just a brain defict, not a skill per se. Though it can ignite creativity and unique perspective.

I always had excellent relative pitch, and never bothered much about absolute pitch.

However, in the last ten years I have been consistently using digital pianos both for practice (headphones are a must if you want to practice at one in the morning) and for teaching. As a result I can now identify isolated notes with facility. I have also developed an uncanny ability to hear wrong notes even when the piece is unknown to me. I often write pieces on a notation software before playing them (as part of my way to get intimate with the piece before going to the piano). Playing back the midi is now for me the most efficient way to see if I have made mistakes when copying. I am a bit surprised at this myself, since it is not something I had ten years ago.

This leads me to speculate that perfect pitch may not be inborn after all, or if it is, thenit is far more widespread than we may believe, and many people may have it and not know. The real difference is that pianos are always out of tune, while a digital piano is always in tune, so frequent exposure to a perfectly tuned instrument will do the trick. (I can also now tell straightaway when a piano is out of tune – even though it may have just been tuned – and by how much it is off – again not something I was aware of being able to do years ago).

The matter of naming the note is of course relative to whatever standard pitch is being used in a certain culture at a certain time. We may hear middle C, but Bach would call it C#.

As for the character of each note, I find this to be most definitely masked (in tonal music) by the key context. A G in C major, will sound very different from a G in G major.

I have not experienced any synaesthetic effects (except that time with magic mushrooms  ;D), with music, although music is powerfully evocative for me (landscapes, conversations. situations and so on). It is like a soundtrack: whatever the music, my mind always provide (in a total unconscious and spontaneous fashion) a movie to go with it.

I also find difference in keys. I know I should not (after all it is equal temperament, right), but I do. However in conversation with a number of tuners, they all assured me that no one (except for digital pianos) actually tunes a piano perfectly according to equal temperament, so maybe that is what it is.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

We are talking about the spectrum of pitch. Both light waves and sound waves have frequencies. Humans are very able to distingush the frequency of light waves. But not for sound waves. But apperently this is just as possible.

People can distinguish sound waves just as easily. The difference between red and blue is as pronounced as between C and C an octave higher. The difference between C and C# is not large, and people without perfect pitch are not able to distinguish these notes, just like we can't distinguish two similar shades of red. However, put next to each other, both the reds and the C's can be easily distinguished. BTW, sound perception is probably more accurate than color perception. We are all familiar with optical illusions that make us believe we are seeing a particular color, but that's not the case, because the surrounding colors/patterns are confusing us. I haven't heard anything as drastic as that in terms of sound.

So, in other words, it is quite possible to assign the 'ballpark' range of both sound (soprano, alto, tenor, etc.) and colors (red, blue, green, etc.), but naming the exact shade or pitch is not easy in either case.

Xvimbi, as far as I know I don't have perfect pitch nur the natural ability to learn it really fast, though I am not sure about the last. But I do hear differences in the character and properties of each note. I was under the impression everyone has this ability. Sure, it is the first step to perfect pitch. Are you telling me you don't hear this? Or Bernhard? Or anyone else?
Sure, it is very sublte but still I can hear it if I get the chance to really focus on it.

Quite frankly, I don't hear differences in the quality of individual notes, and I doubt that the majority of people do so.

If you look as the assosiations people make with different keys. F# major is a bright sharp key. Eb major is often called soothing. Think about the idea of more sharps making a key  more bright and lively, and more flats making a key darker and passive. This seems universal. Though colours assosiated with keys and notes aren't.

Now, you are talking about keys, not individual notes. It is the intervals that create different moods, and that only in unequal temperaments. Anybody who claims s/he can feel different moods depending on the key in equal temperament either has perfect pitch and makes associations, or knows the key of piece somehow and makes associations, or is simply imagining things (which is the case for the majority of people). It's one of the biggest and most annoying myths in music (even worse than 'Hanon is good for you').

[prometheus]

People can distinguish sound waves just as easily. The difference between red and blue is as pronounced as between C and C an octave higher.

To me this is the difference of black and white, or light blue and dark blue.

The difference between C and C# is not large, and people without perfect pitch are not able to distinguish these notes, just like we can't distinguish two similar shades of red.

Yes, but if you listen to the pitch quality, so to the 'colour' of the pitch, then this quality will be a lot different. If you can hear it. Sure, the notes will sound very similar because the frequency is very close. But when you hear the pitch like you see a colour then it is way different while an octave is exactly the same.

However, put next to each other, both the reds and the C's can be easily distinguished.

If this analogy is the correct one, what is pitch quality in colour?

BTW, sound perception is probably more accurate than color perception. We are all familiar with optical illusions that make us believe we are seeing a particular color, but that's not the case, because the surrounding colors/patterns are confusing us. I haven't heard anything as drastic as that in terms of sound.

Maybe because the average music is a lot less detailled than a view of the world. There is much more data comming from the eyes than is in a music piece.

So, in other words, it is quite possible to assign the 'ballpark' range of both sound (soprano, alto, tenor, etc.) and colors (red, blue, green, etc.), but naming the exact shade or pitch is not easy in either case.

I never said it was easy. It isn't. Otherwise everyone would have perfect pitch.

Quite frankly, I don't hear differences in the quality of individual notes, and I doubt that the majority of people do so.

I find this hard to believe actually. But I'll take your word anyway. I am either imagining things or I do have a the ability to learn perfect pitch without absurd amount of time. I will try to find out which one is true.

Now, you are talking about keys, not individual notes. It is the intervals that create different moods, and that only in unequal temperaments.

I am talking about the 'pitch colours'/pitch qualities of all notes of the key, in the right hierarchical amounts mixed together. So basicly a key will sound like its tonic note.

Anybody who claims s/he can feel different moods depending on the key in equal temperament either has perfect pitch and makes associations, or knows the key of piece somehow and makes associations, or is simply imagining things (which is the case for the majority of people).

Well, if you transcribe a piece to a new key, then it will sound very different. Not that a sad piece will start to sound happy. But it has a new feel to it, a new, I have to use the word, colour. Like it has a different texture. Eventhough the intervals are the same, the piece is now in a different part of the pitch spectrum. So the pitch colouration is different. Surely most people will notice it when their favorite piece is played in a totally different key. Or they will notice a sharp, but undefinable, difference between an unknown piece of music in totally different keys. But it does seem some kinds of music are less affected by this. The more big chords and rich harmonies, the bigger the difference. I guess tonality is also a requirement. But if you say I am wrong when I think most people observe this I am starting to doubt these ideas.

It's one of the biggest and most annoying myths in music (even worse than 'Hanon is good for you').

If you mean "D minor is the saddest key of all" then I can relate to that. But when we are talking about the pitch quality radiated by the music there is a difference. I have seen a big list with all kinds of feelings and other things assosiated by all kinds of keys. I am sure people are just assosiating things with keys based on experience or imagining things.

Maybe I am imagining things also. I also thought everyone knows in theory everyone can learn perfect pitch. Since it is required for some asian languages(either Thai, Vietnamese or both and probably some more too). Otherwise not all people would be able to learn the languages. That still doesn't mean every serious musican would benefit from spending time and learning this skill. I agree relative pitch is a lot more important.

I once listened to a sales talk by David Lucas Burge (of the PP Supercourse thingy, a waste of money btw). He compared listening music with PP to watching colour TV compared to watching black and white tv. I wonder about this. I have always felt that developing relative pitch is important for enjoying music. Could the same be true with PP? Since I listen a lot of Sorabji and other stuff, I could imagine perfect pitch would add a lot of detail to my listening experience, and thus enjoyment. Makes me wonder, even though David LB is a slick salesperson with a sweet tougue (are these the proper expressions?).

[casparma]

well, I have tried to link the sound I play on a piano with its note in certain way, but I just cant make a sense out of it... I cant describe why....


I think linking a sound with its characteristic will help....


What is each of you's oppinion on ear training? I mean, is it better to start relative pitch, and then perfect pitch, or the other way around? It seems to me relative pitch is easier and handier to start with, since most of you proclaimed that you dont have perfect pitch, but relative pitch...


any help??

thanks alot

[prometheus]

You have to listen to the notes like you never do. Pick one note and play it over and over and try to hear how it sounds. Then play a different note and try to hear how it sounds. Just let this experience flow over you, don't try to focus or find something. Just releax and hear deed.

You have to learn how to pick out this specific element. Surely all these notes sound different in some way while this quality is retained throughout the octaves.

Apperently at one time the ear/brain learns to pick out these very suble qualities of the pitches. It isn't memorising all these tones. Just a new way to hear. At least that is what I have been told.

Since I don't know a good way to learn perfect pitch, if you don't hear anything then I can't help you.

Perfect pitch isn't related to relative pitch. They are different ways of listening. I suggest you learn relative pitch. Then learn perfect pitch if it comes natural to you.

Maybe try and play two keys next to each other(minor seconds, or maybe more easy major seconds with one key inbetween your two keys) and try to hear both notes in the sound. You have to hear the element in the sound of these two notes that is totally different. One element in the sound of the note 'flips around' so to say, instead of shifting a little higher or lower. You have to focus on this part of the sound.

Maybe someone that does have perfect pitch can help here.

[violinist]

Some more insight into perfect pitch.

I'm not sure how it affects learning to play the piano, but when I was learning violin.  My teacher didn't have to teach me intonation - playing in tune.  I automatically knew when the notes were out of tune, right when I picked up the violin.  I could also tune the violin without referencing it to a piano or other instrument.  I don't even own a tuner that a lot of orchestra players have.  I used to tune the orchestra (when I had the opportunity to be concermaster) with my ear - I just gave the oboe player thumbs up for tune it higher or thumbs down or a wink when I thought it was just right.

But I never struggled to figure out the definition of perfect pitch.  Just like I don't figure out (usually) how to walk.  So, it's hard for me to give insight.  But I find it fascinating that people talk about this.  Perhaps it can be developed?  I'm not sure.

Good luck!

[bearzinthehood]

I have also developed an uncanny ability to hear wrong notes even when the piece is unknown to me.

I have this ability too.  I think it comes from attending piano recitals for years and years.