Is classical music dying?

[contrapunctus]

Is it?

Lets consider some things. I am the only person in my school that listens to classical music intentionally, even the other piano players at my school don't even listen to it. I don't even think half of them even know what classical music is, and I go to a upper-middle class school. If the upcoming generations do not know what it is how will it survive?

This could also be a reason as to why classical piano competitions have such low prizes, when everything else is getting rich (like golf or pool).

I think the decline in classical music is parralled with the dumbing down of the world  (or at least america). I am starting to beleive that one has to have a decent IQ to be able to enjoy classical music.

[4tissimo]

Darn.  I had a lengthy response typed to this query and hit a wrong key and the whole thing disappeared.  What I'd said was that you're quite right, that classical [with a small "c"] music may be dying.  Most of the students at my school don't know what it is and the few that do know, probably don't like it a whole lot.  And that may well be due to a general dumbing down of education, culture, and the arts in general in the U.S. 

  Having said that, however, I was a music librarian briefly at the Interlochen Arts Academy in Michigan which was once ranked by Money magazine as one of the Top 5 private secondary schools in the U.S.  Everyone there, staff and students, not only knew what classical music is but placed a very high value on its performance, interpretation, and preservation. 

[leahcim]

It sounds like you're saying Classical music is for intelligent, posh people.

Which is bizarre - not the least because you can't even write, yet you listen to it

I don't see how you can blame the school or your country for that. Don't give them ideas, they want to make buying chips illegal here.

Intelligent people are such, school or not - the only useful aspect to having a system at all is giving girls and poor people a chance for an education. Dumb people still are - although if by dumbed down you meant they now get a pass certificate I see your point.

How much use you want to make of your intelligence - i.e how educated you want to be -  is pretty much down to your attitude, the school system doesn't matter, certainly not if you've got money.

Classical music isn't dying, no more than English is. Whether you learn either, and to what degree, is up to you.

[Bouter Boogie]

I know what you mean by saying that classical music is dying. I think I'm also the only person at my school who listens to classical music and I have to say that I really thinks that's a pity. Many people think that classical music is dull and that it's meant for dorks At least, a lot of young people have that opinion. Tough luck they don't know better.

- BB

[lostinidlewonder]

"Classical Music" never will die. There is always interest inspired in people, some people find interest in classical music later in life, some like it from the start. But everyone can be inspired to enjoy classical music, they just need to see peformance that give them insight into the meaning behind the music, the why and what, which then offeres a new dimension to their listening capability. How can voiceless sound can inspire a story or human emotion.

I have had people come to me after my concerts and say things like "I was dragged to this concert by my wife, girlfriend etc, but I actually enjoyed it once I understood what I was listening to." I really think the key to the non-classical listeners interest comes from a classical musician giving them some insight into what classical music is about in laymens terms, or at least reflect what the music means to the musician themselves. Once that is presented then the physical action to produce it all and bridging the understanding of how voiceless sound can inspire story or emotion, really starts to empower people. Most people like to experience new dimensions to their senses, understanding HOW to listen to classical music can really inspire interest in someone who otherwise would never listen to it.

[bearzinthehood]

I used to have a preoccupation with whether or not my tastes in music were "cool" and "popular".  Now I don't give a ****.  Classical music will never die so long as there are people like us who appreciate it.  The masses can continue on with whatever inane activities they choose to participate in.  If they'd rather eat at Burger King than have a gourmet meal then it's their call.

[rc]

How much use you want to make of your intelligence - i.e how educated you want to be -  is pretty much down to your attitude, the school system doesn't matter, certainly not if you've got money.

Agreed. Sometimes I get the impression that the 'dumbing down' of the world is just a myth and the world's more or less intellegent as it's ever been, you just see more dumbed down in the media for mass appeal.

For a lot of people music just isn't a very important part of their lives. They'll take whatever's played on the radio as background music to work or dance to and go no further than that. But everybody considers themselves a music fan .

I have had people come to me after my concerts and say things like "I was dragged to this concert by my wife, girlfriend etc, but I actually enjoyed it once I understood what I was listening to." I really think the key to the non-classical listeners interest comes from a classical musician giving them some insight into what classical music is about in laymens terms, or at least reflect what the music means to the musician themselves. Once that is presented then the physical action to produce it all and bridging the understanding of how voiceless sound can inspire story or emotion, really starts to empower people. Most people like to experience new dimensions to their senses, understanding HOW to listen to classical music can really inspire interest in someone who otherwise would never listen to it.

Absolutely! I consider it a sort of duty we have as performers to help people see what's good in the music we play. Even as a listener, though lending out CD's isn't as fun and effective as playing in person. I'm constantly (inconspicuously ) trying to share the music with everyone around me, we all are. Even if you just manage to have someone truely listen and appreciate, it plants the seed that may one day grow into curiousity and maybe even interest.

It may be a niche market, but classical will never die. The people who love it, love it for good reason.

[Etude]

Most new 'popular' songs are listened to for only a few weeks before something else comes along and they are forgotten.  With classical music, it has existed for Centuries and people are still enjoying and listening to the same pieces today.  Popular music is the one dying, but it is constantly being resuscitated.

Classical music is often thought of as being boring by non-classical lovers, although a great deal of it is some of the most exciting, and interesting music you can hear.  I was once listening to classical music at high school and someone asked me how I could listen to it.  What is strange though, is that a while after that happened, someone else asked to listen to what I had on, and they remarked that it was actually good.  I think this shows that it's not classical music in general that would be seen as boring, but it IS the pathetic, weak introductions most non-classical people have to it.  Who here would choose listening to Für Elise over listening to the Liszt Sonata in B minor? 

[prometheus]

To me classical music was never alive. So it can't die either.

[sevencircles]

I find it strange how classical music can survive in the US without any support from taxpayers.

Here in Sweden the labels only dare to support commercial music among the new artists since non commercial music sells to bad.

The taxpayers money is essential for new classical composers and artist even though the fourth largest radiochannel in Sweden play classical music all day long.

[arensky]

Agreed. Sometimes I get the impression that the 'dumbing down' of the world is just a myth and the world's more or less intellegent as it's ever been, you just see more dumbed down in the media for mass appeal.

For a lot of people music just isn't a very important part of their lives. They'll take whatever's played on the radio as background music to work or dance to and go no further than that. But everybody considers themselves a music fan .

You have a point, but it's my observation that people are stupider than they used to be, because the society lets them and the media encourages it. It makes them better targets for those who would take advantage of them, corparations, governments, religious leaders (not religious people!), wingnuts and fanatics left wing and right wing and a myriad of other evil powers who seek to control us and take our money livelihoods and souls.

Ooops, off topic....sort of. Yes for most people music is just "there", we are specialists and addicts, we can't leave it alone. So our view is not so great either, we are often looking at the grains of sand, not the beach and the ocean. But you are right, everyone likes music and is a fan, and today despite all the "dumbing down" people are more open minded and receptive to different things, and there lies the hope, not just for classical music but for all art. I find that more people than ever are listening to classical music and enjoying it,there's a lot of it around (thanx Naxos and Vienna Pilz and Infinity and ITunes) and there is much less of an "uncool" stigma attached to it for young people than when I was in high school, when I had to learn "Beth" by Kiss to be cool at the piano; and was that so bad or awful? Yes it was, but then people would stay and listen to my classical project de jour. I think I changed a few minds.

But to answer the original question, is classical music dying? No, but it is redefining itself, as all art forms do periodically as society shifts and changes. Think of the differences in classical music, performance practice, repertoire, dress and attire, taste and style in playing, etc., in 1900, 1950, 1975 and 2005. All very different. But right now there is cause for concern, perhaps we have to redefine ourselves and the way we are and appear to the public, who still can think of us as geeks, bookworms and nurds. I'm not advocating Elvis' gold lame suits or Boy George's facial "art", but maybe if we tried to appear like more normal people and less like SNOBS (yes, it's true we often come off that way) we might make more friends; guess who is being very successful at this, many of you don't want to hear it but LANG LANG is a hit with with the general public. MY neighbors who are repairmen, insurance agents truck drivers firemen nurses etc. all ask me who the SMILING Chinese pianist is, and what's his story. I remember reading one of his first reviews about 3 years ago, and the critic (can't remember who right now), while not altogether entranced with the artistic quality, was bowled over by the technical mastery and energy. And then he pointed out the real reason for Lang's sucsess; he said (out of my memory, don't quote me) "most audiences see a soloist come on stage and condescend to them; Lang Lang walks on the stage and invites you into his world; and they love him for it."(or something like that) This is very important, folks...

This is a heavy topic, and an important one; I'l be Bach...
                                                                           

[pianowelsh]

NO!! This argument always gets me! The very fact that we are still listening to it and selling millions of cds pa 200+ years after most of it was written suggests to me that it might just be fairing that little bit better than most of the popular trash that has come between which has been so highly praised at the time but has soon died into oblivion.  Good music doesnt really die - it may go through fashions but it always survives.  People who tell you otherwise are scare mongering.  There is no reason on earth why classical music should die - unless we who are charged with its safe keeping murder it of course

[arch0wl]

Classical music will never die, but that's because it has never really been alive either. The public's impression of classical music is a composition of about 100 movements that they know of, but other than that, it's unknown to them. Things like this examplify that.

[rc]

You have a point, but it's my observation that people are stupider than they used to be, because the society lets them and the media encourages it. It makes them better targets for those who would take advantage of them, corparations, governments, religious leaders (not religious people!), wingnuts and fanatics left wing and right wing and a myriad of other evil powers who seek to control us and take our money livelihoods and souls.

Hahah! Yeah, it's still a cut-throat world, nothing has changed there. Those in power prefer sheep.

I'm not sure about using the word stupid... ignorant maybe, certainly lazy. I don't really have a lot of experience with the people who conform to those standards (aside from what we can't really escape, government). I've caught glimpses into the livestyles of room mates and certain branches of family that could probably be considered as good sheep; work all day to come home and be pacified with reality TV. Buying what's 'cool', pride in being able to drink and eat a lot, good consumers. But I wouldn't say any of them are stupid, some very quick minds with their own strengths. Very conformist though, which may be the reason they've become ignorant and lazy and good consumer sheep. But I wonder how well society would run without these people...

Just some thoughts. An interesting topic.

But right now there is cause for concern, perhaps we have to redefine ourselves and the way we are and appear to the public, who still can think of us as geeks, bookworms and nurds. I'm not advocating Elvis' gold lame suits or Boy George's facial "art", but maybe if we tried to appear like more normal people and less like SNOBS (yes, it's true we often come off that way) we might make more friends; guess who is being very successful at this, many of you don't want to hear it but LANG LANG is a hit with with the general public. MY neighbors who are repairmen, insurance agents truck drivers firemen nurses etc. all ask me who the SMILING Chinese pianist is, and what's his story. I remember reading one of his first reviews about 3 years ago, and the critic (can't remember who right now), while not altogether entranced with the artistic quality, was bowled over by the technical mastery and energy. And then he pointed out the real reason for Lang's sucsess; he said (out of my memory, don't quote me) "most audiences see a soloist come on stage and condescend to them; Lang Lang walks on the stage and invites you into his world; and they love him for it."(or something like that) This is very important, folks...

I couldn't agree with you more on that one! Snobbery doesn't do any good for anyone, and is a major obstacle in people being able to relate to classical music. As you said, we're simply the specialists and addicts, no reason to hold ourselves above others (who are likely specialists/addicts in some field of their own, that we're ignorant to). I saw a show on TV following a young cello/piano duo across Canada, who acted like regular human beings - making jokes, having fun, connecting with the audience, then blowing them away with incredible music . Their tour was very succesful and audiences loved it. Wish I could remember who they were .

Most new 'popular' songs are listened to for only a few weeks before something else comes along and they are forgotten.  With classical music, it has existed for Centuries and people are still enjoying and listening to the same pieces today.  Popular music is the one dying, but it is constantly being resuscitated.

A friend once spoke a good term for that: disposable pop-culture. It speaks for itself

Classical music is often thought of as being boring by non-classical lovers, although a great deal of it is some of the most exciting, and interesting music you can hear.  I was once listening to classical music at high school and someone asked me how I could listen to it.  What is strange though, is that a while after that happened, someone else asked to listen to what I had on, and they remarked that it was actually good.  I think this shows that it's not classical music in general that would be seen as boring, but it IS the pathetic, weak introductions most non-classical people have to it.  Who here would choose listening to Für Elise over listening to the Liszt Sonata in B minor?

I have no idea where the notion of classical music as boring comes from. I doubt it's from the introductions to classical music people get, because I can't think of anyone ever getting an actual introduction to classical music. They just somewhere get the idea that's it's lame (maybe as Arensky said, from us being such geeks), and that's all there is to it.

Liszt Bm > Fur Elise is a bit of a pianist perspective, I'm sure the general public would prefer Fur Elise, generally.

I find it strange how classical music can survive in the US without any support from taxpayers.

Here in Sweden the labels only dare to support commercial music among the new artists since non commercial music sells to bad.

The taxpayers money is essential for new classical composers and artist even though the fourth largest radiochannel in Sweden play classical music all day long.

I'm not sure about the US, but I can say that here in Canada the radio stations that will play classical or jazz are publicly funded, so far as I've heard.

Things like this examplify that.

Oh damn! That's hilarious!

HIGHLY REKOMMENDED!!!!!!!, September 29, 2005
 Reviewer:    Mark Twain (U S OF A) - See all my reviews 
 
WHY WASTE YOUR TIME AND MONEY LOOKING FOR ALL THESE ALBUMS WHEN YOU CAN GET THIS C.D. FOR CHEAP AND IT HAS ALL THE GREATEST CLASSICAL SONGS YOU'LL EVER NEED TO OWN. WANT TO IMPRESS THE LADIES? JUST PUT IN THIS C.D. AND OFFER HER A COLD ONE AND WATCH HER MELT!! DON'T FORGET TO PUT A PILLOW CASE OVER THE LAMP SHADE TO CREATE THAT MOOD LIGHTING. WORKS EVERY TIME!!!

 

I dunno if it's joking or not, still hilarious!

This is why we're needed - somebody could take this sort of thing seriously! 

[arch0wl]

To be honest, I thought the guy who said

TO IMPRESS THE LADIES? JUST PUT IN THIS C.D. AND OFFER HER A COLD ONE AND WATCH HER MELT!!

was joking to the extreme, but you never know. Putting on something like Für Elise for a romantic evening would make my girlfriend laugh at me

[pianowelsh]

Classical music is like a well built standard cut suit - It never goes out of fashion precisesly because it was crafted with real attention to quality.  A distinguishing feature sadly lacking in a lot of popular music.

[perfect_pitch]

I want to move to the heart of Classical Music - GERMANY!!!! I wonder if I'll have to learn German though, I've heard that the Germans are incredibly fluent English Speakers...

If anyone thinks Classical Music is dying in their country - come over to Australia and you'll see how I FEEL!!!! It's all sports orientated here and it makes me sick...

I'm not saying that sport isn't good (it helps maintain exercise and a healthy life - and I like sports like track running, hurdles, shotput - sports of stamina and concentration...) not like Football and Grand Prix racing....

None of that...

[abell88]

I'm not sure about the US, but I can say that here in Canada the radio stations that will play classical or jazz are publicly funded, so far as I've heard.

CJRT in Toronto is not publicly funded. They switched from mainly classical with a little jazz a few years ago to totally jazz, because the jazz donors gave more.

[contrapunctus]

I am not talking about whether classical music is popular or not, which doesn't really matter. I am talking about how Classical music will have such a small amount of followers in the future that it will not matter itself: here's how.
 
1)To be able to enjoy classical music you need to have an attention span ( I know it seems simple but walk into a public high school and try to have a conversation and you will get what I mean),

 2) you also have to have some sort of intellegence to be able to follow the melody lines in most pieces (pieces like fur elise do not need intelligence to follow the melody line which is why they are popular).

3) You also need patience, classical music pieces are not entirely composed of exciting climaxes. You have to wait for them.

As we all know, these qualities are diminishing because of todays instant gratification oriented society and the fact that society accepts people who never choose to develop their intelligence. And since people do not have these qualities they do not have the attention spans or the intelligence to follow more than the first few notes which is why it seems 'boring' to them.

We will die, and once whe die someone else will have to pick up the torch that is classical music. What if, because of today's society, there is no one else?

[leahcim]

As we all know, these qualities are diminishing because of todays instant gratification oriented society and the fact that society accepts people who never choose to develop their intelligence.

No we don't all know that - teenagers saying this and that is boring isn't particulary new - [although these days there is research trying to explain some of that] and this idea that everyone is "stupider" is, frankky ridiculous, people are as stupid as they've always been and the intelligent ones are still that.

Here are a few things to do

(a) Ask piano teachers whether they are still teaching 6-16 year olds and universities whether they are still getting undergraduates.
(b) Read a history book concentrating on the general population of the time, not the wig-wearing ponces writing music for this and that king.
(c) Look outside your own little world for (b) and for the present day.

[contrapunctus]

No we don't all know that - teenagers saying this and that is boring isn't particulary new - [although these days there is research trying to explain some of that] and this idea that everyone is "stupider" is, frankky ridiculous, people are as stupid as they've always been and the intelligent ones are still that.

Here are a few things to do

(a) Ask piano teachers whether they are still teaching 6-16 year olds and universities whether they are still getting undergraduates.
(b) Read a history book concentrating on the general population of the time, not the wig-wearing ponces writing music for this and that king.
(c) Look outside your own little world for (b) and for the present day.

But, back then the general population was not capable of getting an education, so most of them were not able to develop their intelligence. Nowadays, it is the law it get an education, but as you say the problem is still the same as it was along time ago. Get my point?

[leahcim]

But, back then the general population was not capable of getting an education, so most of them were not able to develop their intelligence. Nowadays, it is the law it get an education, but as you say the problem is still the same as it was along time ago. Get my point?

I understand what you're trying to say, yes, but I don't agree with it.

Not the least because if I accept what you've just written, classical music must have died a long time ago if, as you say - not me [see your name at the top?] "the problem is still the same as it was "along" time ago"

I didn't say the problem is still the same, I didn't say there was a problem at all afaict.
I wasn't giving you homework, but I was hoping you'd look for yourself at my suggestions.

[prometheus]

e radio stations that will play classical or jazz are publicly funded, so far as I've heard.

Oh ***! That's hilarious!

Yay, November 4, 2004
Reviewer:   rattfink (San Fran, CA) - See all my reviews
Thank God these people took the time to compile this collection, now I can just get this and don't have to bother figuring out what's good and what's not good. Everything classical that's worth listening to is here. If it's not included, it must not be worth listening to. Even if it is, who cares, I'll never waste my time trying to find out. And to all you snobs who think you're so intellectual and know every friggin symphony number and composer that ever existed, give yourself a pat on the back for being better than everyone else.

[yamagal]

No, it is not.  It experiences ebbs and flows in popularity in the broader culture, similar to jazz music.  For example, when the film Amadeus came out, there was a spike in popular interest in classical music.

There will, in my opinion, always be a strong classical music subculture, even if society at large is generally ignorant of classical music.

[Floristan]

There was a great shift in classical music between the Romantic and Modern periods.  Modern communications is a large part of it.  Thanks to the phonograph and the radio (which have developed into the iPod and the Internet), people can access music without performing it themselves.   Music went from being an activity to being a passive pleasure.  There were hundreds and hundreds of piano manufacturers at the turn of the last century (1900).  Now there are 50 or so.   In the 19th century amateur involvement with classical music was extremely high.  The middle class all owned pianos, and they played music of the great composers.  As soon as Schumann, for example, published a new piece, it would be purchased and played by amateurs throughout Germany and Austria (and much of the rest of Europe).  Symphonies were always released in 4-hand or 2 piano transcriptions, and that's how people became familiar with them.  Amateur choirs were common.  Music, specifically classical music, was THE pasttime of the educated middle class.

Once the phonograph became available, it was no longer necessary to make music oneself, and so it essentially stopped.  The mass dissemination of music that came about through radio led almost immediately to a great democratization of music, so that all sorts of music became available, and much of it was not from the middle class.  Music had ceased to be what people did in their homes and became what people listened to in their homes.  Naturally classical music, which has a level of complexity that requires some study, became less popular.

Also, composers starting with Schoenberg took classical music to a place that most people just couldn't follow.  In freeing music from harmonics, it became difficult even to listen to for most people.  Even intelligent, caring, educated people could not abide atonal music.  Music had gone from being a middle-class activity and product to being an activity and product of a few elite.   Composers no longer cared what the public thought of their work -- they weren't composing for the public at large anyway.

How composition got to this point in the early 20th century is probably very complicated.  At least part of it was World War I, which fractured the Western world's sense of connectedness and made every man a cynic overnight it seemed.  Part of it was the natural development through the Liszt and Wagner lines -- both in terms of the music itself (increasingly chromatic and verging on atonal) and in terms of the attitude of the composers (it's all about me, me, me).

Huge books have been written about all this.  Bottom line for me -- in a very real sense classical music is dead.  We are it's museum keepers.  Sure there are millions of us, but we are as nothing compared to the billions to whom classical music means nothing and to whom mass market music IS music.

Dumbing down is the ultimate result of all democracy, and democracy is the result of the free and easy flow of information.   If everyone is an arbiter of taste, and if everyone gets a vote, then the most popular forms of entertainment will always win out.  Capitalism merely rewards those who get the most votes.  Classical music can only be preserved in strong socialist countries where it is subsidized by the state.

I read somewhere recently that some organization representing the symphony orchestras of the Western world (North America and Europe) forsees a severe shortage of performers on certain instruments (viola, French horn, oboe, bassoon, etc) to the point that they believe there just won't be enough players to go around in 10-20 years. 

If classical music isn't dead, it's certainly moribund.  We are but acolytes at the crypt! 

[leahcim]

There was a great shift in classical music between the Romantic and Modern periods.  Modern communications is a large part of it.  Thanks to the phonograph and the radio (which have developed into the iPod and the Internet), people can access music without performing it themselves.

This is true - but it gives a longer shelf life to good pianists' performances, beyond their lifespan as well as providing an audience for musicians. The premise was that classical music was either unheard of, or never listened too, not that it wasn't played.

There were hundreds and hundreds of piano manufacturers at the turn of the last century (1900).  Now there are 50 or so.

Slightly disengenous, there are less of many things as industry tends towards creating large opolies.
You could determine that people in the UK are eating less because there are less shops selling food like bakers, grocers and butchers [with a far greater swing than a few hundred to 50 or so]...until you see that the few remaining are huge

In the US for example :-
https://www.pianonet.com/saleshist.htm

The sales of grand pianos aren't flagging. Digitals are growing, Uprights are floundering a bit over the latter 20th / 21st Century, but still high. I don't think its fair to say that everyone used to play and now they don't - where did they get the pianos from? Because afaict they weren't buying them

in the 60s / 70s / 80s much of what you said caused the decline, had happened, yet sales were far more than 1900.

AIUI, the US was about 50% of the world market in piano sales in the 1900s. So, there aren't a few million European sales missing from those stats although the only stats I could find for worldwide units made only go up to the 1980s, with a similar trend to what I said above. PIano sales were anything but bad in that period.

Of course, those pianos might not have played classical, but if classical music has ever been alive for it to be dead now, I can't see how that can be measured by piano sales. Perhaps the other instruments are
more indicative though.

If upright piano sales are to decline more and more, rather than just dipping [some of which is digitals appearing] - it started around 10  years ago afaict, long after the alleged causes of democracy, cup cakes, crumbly apple pie and gramophone / radio had been invented It must be the internet's fault 

[prometheus]

There are 50 million kids playing piano in china. Surely thats more than in 18th century europe.

[Floristan]

From Wikipedia:

To understand the rise of the piano among the middle class, it is helpful to remember that before mechanical and electronic reproduction, music was in fact performed on a daily basis by ordinary people. For instance, the working people of every nation generated a body of folk music, which was transmitted orally down through the generations and sung by all. The parents of Joseph Haydn (1732-1809) could not read music, yet Haydn's father (who worked as a wheelwright) taught himself to play the harp, and the Haydn family frequently played and sang together. With rising prosperity, the many families that could now afford pianos and music adapted their home-grown musical abilities to the new instrument, and the piano become a major source of music in the home.

Amateur pianists in the home often kept track of the doings of the leading pianists and composers of their day. Professional virtuosi wrote books and methods for the study of piano playing, which sold widely. The virtuosi also prepared their own editions of classical works, which included detailed marks of tempo and expression to guide the amateur who wanted to use their playing as a model. (Today, students are usually encouraged to work from an urtext edition.) The piano compositions of the great composers often sold well among amateurs, despite the fact that, starting with Beethoven, they were often far too hard for anyone but a trained virtuoso to play perfectly. Evidently, the amateur pianists obtained satisfaction from coming to grips with the finest music, even if they could not perform it from start to finish.

A favorite form of musical recreation in the home was playing works for four-hand piano, in which the two players sit side by side at a single piano. Sometimes members of the household would sing or play other instruments along with the piano.

Parents whose children showed unusual talent often pushed them toward professional careers, sometimes making great sacrifices to make this possible. Artur Schnabel's book My Life and Music (reprinted 1988; Mineola, NY: Dover) vividly depicts his own experience along this lines, which took place in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the late 19th century.

The piano's status in the home remained secure until technology made possible the enjoyment of music in passive form. First the player piano (ca. 1900), then the home phonograph (which became common in the decade before World War I), then the radio (in the 1920s) dealt severe blows to amateur piano-playing as a form of domestic recreation. During the Great Depression of the 1930s, piano sales dropped sharply, and many manufacturers went out of business.

Another blow to the piano was the widespread acceptance in the late 20th century of the electronic keyboard. This instrument, in its cheaper forms, is widely considered to provide only a poor substitute for the tonal quality of a good piano (see piano for why), but it is much more flexible and in many ways better suited to the performance of popular music.

Nevertheless, the piano survives to this day in many 21st century homes. The pianos being bought today tend to be of higher quality and more expensive than those of several decades ago, suggesting perhaps that domestic piano playing may have concentrated itself in homes of wealthier or better-educated members of the middle class. It is unlikely that ability to play the piano contributes much these days to the marriageability of daughters, but many parents still feel today that piano lessons teach their children concentration and self-discipline, and open a door into the world of classical music.

About 100,000 pianos are sold yearly in the U.S. (including digital pianos) -- a number which has changed little over the past 25 years.  This sounds like a lot, but over 300,000 pianos were sold in the U.S. in 1914 (for example), when the population of the U.S. is 1/3 what it is now.  That's an immense decline in sales per household.

The huge drop in the number of piano manufacturers is not primarily due to consolidation of smaller parts of the industry into bigger parts.   Manufacturers just went out of business for lack of business.  Only the strongest survived.

Numbers, of course, don't begin to tell the story.  Classical music is moribund.  We keep it alive and on display like paintings in a gallery.  It is a barely living art.  That makes me love it all the more, I think.  

    

[leahcim]

About 100,000 pianos are sold yearly in the U.S. (including digital pianos) -- a number which has changed little over the past 25 years.

The stats I've seen beg to differ. But I agree, piano numbers don't really address the original question.

[rc]

Yay, November 4, 2004
Reviewer:   rattfink (San Fran, CA) - See all my reviews
Thank God these people took the time to compile this collection, now I can just get this and don't have to bother figuring out what's good and what's not good. Everything classical that's worth listening to is here. If it's not included, it must not be worth listening to. Even if it is, who cares, I'll never waste my time trying to find out. And to all you snobs who think you're so intellectual and know every friggin symphony number and composer that ever existed, give yourself a pat on the back for being better than everyone else.

That's more sad than hilarious... 

I have to wonder what made this guy buy the compilation when he clearly has no interest in classical music anyways... ?? But it is evidence in the detrimental effects of snobbery. Either this guy is very insecure that when somebody knows their music he feels dumb, or he's run into a snob who made him feel dumb and tarnished his notion of classical music.

To take it literally, classical music is dead. Any music of an era dies as the era passes, so yeah classical is dust. But there is still new 'art music' being made today, very much in line with classical (genre) aesthetics. It will never make it into popular view, which is understandable. But it's still being composed, and there's still an audience for it.

I still don't entirely subscribe to the idea of democracy actually making people dumber, but it is true that it caters to the "lowest common denominator", which gives the appearance of dumbing down (that's all we see!). That's fine too, let them have their entertainment. If everyone were educated and intellectual, who would do the grunt work? Building homes, transporting goods, take out the trash... The foundation of society.

There are and always will be those more inclined towards intellectual activities, and among them are those who will be interested enough in music to get into classical and even learn to play it. My teacher is currently overloaded with piano students and is having to refer some off, even in my city which I consider to be culturally numb. My young cousin has taken up violin, young sister has taken up flute, one brother took up trumpet, other brother asked me about the circle of fifths last weekend, and none of us have musical parents. A friend whose primary love is punk music suddenly has a mozart disk in his collection, and asked to borrow a CD of Beethoven Sonatas. Classical music is still important enough to be taught at the university, which says there's enough demand for them to maintain that faculty, I would guess by the amount of staff that it's no marginal class either.

I'm not basing this on something some scholar wrote in a book, this is what I see around me. It's not widely appreciated, and we may be part historians, but I just don't see it ever going away.

You know why they call it classical? because it's good enough to stand the test of time.

[stevie]

Most new 'popular' songs are listened to for only a few weeks before something else comes along and they are forgotten.  With classical music, it has existed for Centuries and people are still enjoying and listening to the same pieces today.  Popular music is the one dying, but it is constantly being resuscitated.

popular music is superior to classical music in many ways, few people realise why this is.

the difference between classical music and popular music is not quality, the only reason most of the classical music we listen to nowadays is of such high quality is because of the time-filtering process...naturally.

essentially the only difference is complexity vs simplicity, subtlety vs blatantness...

neither is outright superior to the other....

complex music will always have an audience, whatever form the music takes, as long as people are hungry they will seek to eat.

[lau]

Yes, it is. If you listen to it your not considered cool.

[stevie]

Yes, it is. If you listen to it your not considered cool.

reheheheheally
well i consider a person cool, when they do things in spite of what other people think is cool, because they have a passion for it.

thats what i call cool, and yes, it includes cannibalism.

[lau]

Stevie, your weird

[eye]

I  appreciate Stevie's words

[arch0wl]

essentially the only difference is complexity vs simplicity, subtlety vs blatantness...

Wrong.

You're also forgetting that classical music takes great skill to perform. With popular music, this is not really the case.

[stevie]

Wrong.

You're also forgetting that classical music takes great skill to perform. With popular music, this is not really the case.

is that relevant to the music itself?

anything that is more complex will be more difficult and most often require more skill and hard work, but i would say that there are quite a few artists in popular music that have natural talents that exceed that of many classical musicians.

[arch0wl]

i would say that there are quite a few artists in popular music that have natural talents that exceed that of many classical musicians.

Who?

It also really depends on your definition of "popular music". I highly doubt you think that top 40 billboard artists have "talens that exceed that of many classical musicians".

[Dazzer]

I was thinking about this recently. And i had a thought.

In the old old times, most of the general public didn't really even have a clue about music. That's my impression. seriously, if the society then is supposedly... less intelligent to society now, how'd they possibly understand?

Now, so how did music manage to expand? Alot of composers had patrons. Everyone else just tags along. Just like in the movei Amadeus. Mozart writes a very long opera. Could have been a good one, but after the emperor yawns once... boom its a bad thing. Everyone just judges it from one person.

In the non imperial years, some musicians were given due notice from Stalin. However, stalin knew crap all about music. In fact, prokofiev often mocked the government in his music.

Nowadays, this doesn't really happen anymore. There isn't anyone to follow. And most of the population isn't educated in music, and hence don't understand it. Therefore, they simply go with what the general people around them listen to.

its 1am, so very sorry if its a little confusing, i can't explain it clearly myself. Just a feeling i have.

[pill]

Classical music is, sadly, dead. 

Pop music makes me want to puke and I would gladly stick a finger into my mouth  . 

Classical music takes much more skill to perform.  I play the guitar a little bit, and I'm amazed to see that I can play the tunes of songs on the radio in a day, perfect it a couple more days.  Classical music.. takes months to perfect.

[ravel]

to quote etude:
Most new 'popular' songs are listened to for only a few weeks before something else comes along and they are forgotten.  With classical music, it has existed for Centuries and people are still enjoying and listening to the same pieces today.  Popular music is the one dying, but it is constantly being resuscitated.

i dont think any one can put it better. thats what i tell my friends as well. when they like a new song, i tell them," i ll ask you if you like this same song after a year, or even a month"  , most of them just forget about it, as if the song never existed.  with classical, people still love chopin almost 200 years later.  and i can never get over his pieces.  they will never sound boring to me. 
we ll see how much of today's music is alive in the next 20 years.  and then one realises. that classical has lived much more, it is very much alive and in good health,  because , this might not be true for every one, but i feel that people who love classical music, IN GENERAL, love their music much more than  people who love other kinds of music,  ( unless they are professional musicians),  my friends who like pop, like it, but they are not obsessed with it, the way i am with my music. and although i dont listen to classical exclusively, and think that there is a lot of good music even outside classical   ( i used to listen to rock and heavy metal , before  i got "converted" to classical music hehe),  i still think i feel closest to classical music.

[rc]

Who?

It also really depends on your definition of "popular music". I highly doubt you think that top 40 billboard artists have "talens that exceed that of many classical musicians".

The Beatles come immediately to mind of incredible pop talent. More recently, Red Hot Chili Peppers.

The thing is to judge pop music by pop standards. Pop isn't classical, obvious, but that's not a reason to condemn it. Another common error is to be too instrumentally-minded, condemning music for not being difficult, when it may still be great music. I saw this a lot in the world of guitar. It's understandable to value difficult music as you look for challenges on your instrument, but it can blind one to simple listening.

Playing pop music is nothing, the art is in writing a good tune. Creatively, effectively communicating a message in a short form. A good pop tune is a masterpiece as in any other style.

Yeah, there's a lot of crap, always something that I can hardly wait for the world to forget. A lot of those top 40 'artists' are just figureheads, celebrity for the TV screen. Most of it will be thankfully forgotten, some is good and will survive. But even some of the pop-diva tunes are well written, by someone behind the scenes mind you, the real artist. Classic rock is the tunes that have survived the decades up to now, and a lot of that will likely stick around. There's something timeless about good music.

Just don't go disregarding pop music because the industry craps out a lotta turds and that it's not classical. Pop, as a style, has value.

[rc]

CJRT in Toronto is not publicly funded. They switched from mainly classical with a little jazz a few years ago to totally jazz, because the jazz donors gave more.

...If a station relies on donations, I consider it publicly funded. In Albera we have CKUA which is the same deal; public donations, some advertising, no government. CKUA has to do a fundraiser twice/year, where they push for donations on-air which is a bit of a pain, I'm not sure if CJRT has to do this.

[bernhard]

The Beatles come immediately to mind of incredible pop talent.

Yet, when Paul McCartney got over ambitious and decided to write "classical" music, he found himself completley out of his depth and produced, well, crap. ("The Liverpool Oratorio").

Actually, this just reminded me of a quote by Dennis Leary:

"We live in a country where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest. Yoko Ono is standing right next to him. Not one F**king bullet. Explain that to me! Explain that to me!" 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

i know all about this, bernhard....it doesnt affect my opinion that he has a raw talent well beyond that of many classical musicians.

was that composition a failure because of his lack of talent or simply because he was so used to composing popular music that it ended up sounding like orchestrated pop?

his trade is short relatively simple tunes, its hard to say if he grew up and was cultured into writing more complex music would he be great.

also, what about many of today's classical composers, could they write a pop tunes thqat could reach no1 and earn them tons of money?
im not so sure they could, its a special ability to write that kind of stuff, perhaps.

possibly.

[prometheus]

Pop music isn't meant as an art form. There are different intentions. If you are going to judge music based on how succesful the intentions are forfilled then the point that pop music hasn't got standard or memorable works is irrelevant.

[arch0wl]

Please keep in mind I am pretty young. I am 17. I know all about pop music today and there is very little of it with composition talent like The Beatles or whatnot, given that my peers pretty much force all of this down my throat.

You're right in that the composition skills required is completely different depending on the style of music. A perfect example is Electronic music. Here's an analyzation by someone who, prior to listening to it, has only listened to Jazz and Classical: here. The composition of electronic music is largely based around the production value of it, a good, blatant example of this would be one who goes by the stage name "BT".

I am probably going to get lynched by saying this, but I actually listen to rap sometimes. The composition of it is completely different and is not really so much musical as it is a more poetic stance. The best advice I can give you is to go here. I seriously hope none of you instantly disregard what I say from now on because of this, given that it's apparently impossible for someone to like it and like Sorabji or Rach at the same time =\

What stevie is saying is that you can't really compare the Opus Clavembalisticum to a Beatles album. Granted, I think Sorabji has more talent in his pinky than pretty much every pop musician/group has with all their efforts, but I'm just taking a guess at what stevie's point is here, at the risk of losing some of my credibility.

[leahcim]

Yet, when Paul McCartney got over ambitious and decided to write "classical" music, he found himself completley out of his depth and produced, well, crap. ("The Liverpool Oratorio").

Actually, this just reminded me of a quote by Dennis Leary:

Bill Hicks probably said it first

I mentioned before seeing a Jools Holland program with PM, this must have been it :-

"Jools Holland's Piano - Jools Holland presents a personal history of the piano in popular music over the last 100 years.

The two-part series features exclusive interviews and performances from some of the world's piano greats and takes Jools around the globe as he catches up with the likes of Jerry Lee Lewis inMemphis, Billy Joel in North Carolina, Ray Charles and Billy Preston in LA and Paul McCartney, George Shearing and Herbie Hancock in London."

I'm about to make up a rumour that PM won the Grammy for most transparent bluffing "ay, ay, calm down, calm down, now I like sort of, you know..me and john...err, get my drift, and, well, started piano because I wanted to play this...Em chord IIRC..and then, I kind of, well, y'know, and, err, well, like, yeah and took it from there" "Thanks Paul" "You're welcome Jools"

By comparison, most of the others, jammed with Jools, talked about their influences, doodled around - unless I missed some clips with Paul as they'd spliced up most of the other interviews so it was going back and forth between the same people.

I think most of the talent for pop is behind the scenes, the producers and muscians etc, with a few exceptions, but that's generally the impression I get when these "famous rock album" documentaries go through track by track.

[lostinidlewonder]

About 100,000 pianos are sold yearly in the U.S. (including digital pianos) -- a number which has changed little over the past 25 years.  This sounds like a lot, but over 300,000 pianos were sold in the U.S. in 1914 (for example), when the population of the U.S. is 1/3 what it is now.  That's an immense decline in sales per household.   

I think thats because there are a lot more second hand pianos nowadays than there where in 1914.

[steve jones]

Is it?

Lets consider some things. I am the only person in my school that listens to classical music intentionally, even the other piano players at my school don't even listen to it. I don't even think half of them even know what classical music is, and I go to a upper-middle class school. If the upcoming generations do not know what it is how will it survive?

This could also be a reason as to why classical piano competitions have such low prizes, when everything else is getting rich (like golf or pool).

I think the decline in classical music is parralled with the dumbing down of the world  (or at least america). I am starting to beleive that one has to have a decent IQ to be able to enjoy classical music.

I couldnt agree more my friend. In the UK, the establishment are trying every trick in the book to send the working classes back into mud huts. And having a developed appreciation for music doesnt fit into that profile unfortunately. Classical music will never die imo, but its presence in the lives of common people will diminish. It will become reserved for those cultured folk who live among the upper classes, and considered stiff and snobbish by the masses.

An addition aspect (that applies to the UK) is our governments efforts to denationalise the general masses. Anything links to our fine heritige are being severed, persumably to rid us of our perskey national pride. I mean, I know very few people who comprehend the significance of Western classic music. Most are (in their extreme ignorance) convinced that everything we hear today is from pure black / African decent... 

So yes, I agree, classical music is on the decline. But I dont believe it has anything to do with peoples capacity to appreciate this music - it is part of a much bigger picture or social change. Where I come from, it isnt part of the demographic profile to be artistic - I would argue that is margin on becoming socially unexceptable (for a man atleast).

Consider it another way though, from the business perspective - classical music is not easy to pen and produce. It can take years just to write a single piece, and will then cost insane amounts of money to record. In a nut shell, it isnt economically viable to have everyone listening to classical music. Hip Hop on the other hand, is VERY economically viable - hence why the US and now UK / Europe are welcoming it with open arms. Hip Hop has to be the most economic music there has ever been, as it cost nothing (in terms of money, time, and arguably talent) to pen and produce an album full of salable music. In addition, Hip Hop goes straight for the jugular when it comes down to pleasing its youth market, while classical music takes a little more effort!