List of Jewish pianists, wow...

[leahcim]

WOPS

Pollini and Brendel [partly], but Italians is probably a more politically correct description.

[vladhorwz]

Pollini and Brendel [partly], but Italians is probably a more politically correct description.

That is a very derogitive term in the states.  Anybody know what it stands for?
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With Out Papers (WOP)

[rimv2]

Jews are wrong about who is and is not a Jew?  And you know better than Jews how to determine who is and is not a Jew?

My God, that's unbelievably presumptuous and arrogant.

Not arrogant. Not presumptuous. Would you call a buddhist who eats meat and drinks wine a buddhist? Can you call someone who does not play piano a pianist?

If being a descendant of one person automatically meant you were Jewish, a vast majority of the people on this planet would be.

A person can be born into a jewish family, but to be born jewish is not possible. There is no distinct jewish characteristic that defines a child born into a jewish family from another. Every child is the same and yet every child is different. Jewish people can be blonde, brunnett, or have black hair. They can have skin as light as snow or as dark as... one from southern afrika.

And you know better than Jews how to determine who is and is not a Jew?

Can a  christian distinguish a non christian? Sometimes. Can a nonchristian distinguish a christian? Yep, sometimes. Now replace christian with jew.

Absurd. I was born Catholic and have that imprimatur regardless of now considering myself a protestant. You can convert to Catholicism, but (figuritavely speaking) you cannot convert out. I mean, you can renouce the beliefs, but the culture stays with you.

You cant swim with one foot in the water and one foot out.

And by the way, Prom and Rimv2, if you truly believe being a Chirstina is not only a cultural thing and that you can be a Christian without ever going to church or professing the believes, you have never been to Latin America, where more than 90% of people consider themselves Catholic and never do either thing.

Ahm gonna guess you meant "you can't be a Christian without ever going to church...."

These people are just kidding themselves, unfortunately. This would be the equivalent of saying "Ahm a christian because I go to church every sunday morning" then going out at night and doing nothing but drinking, partying, shagging random people and shooting hookers in the alley.

As ahve stated before, unless you follow the rituals of a religion/culture you are not really part of that religion/culture. Absolutely nothing is inborn

[hodi]

Now i see why Alfred Brendel, Pollini and Kempff are bad pianists...

i actually detest pollini's playing
it's way too mechnical and boring.
his chopin is horrible.

[rohansahai]

i actually detest pollini's playing
it's way too mechnical and boring.
his chopin is horrible.

Agree.

[Motrax]

Can a  christian distinguish a non christian? Sometimes. Can a nonchristian distinguish a christian? Yep, sometimes. Now replace christian with jew.

This is simply untrue. If you've been around Jews for a while, as I've been (I'm Jewish), you can tell with about 90% accuracy who's Jewish simply by looking. Judaism is different than other religions because Jews have very rarely inter-married with other peoples for all the 4000-some years they've been around. Of course, if a native Jamaican decides to convert to Judaism, that makes the line a bit more blurry.

If being a descendant of one person automatically meant you were Jewish, a vast majority of the people on this planet would be.

This statement is likewise ridiculous. Roughly .22% of the world's population is Jewish (https://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html). With the amount of isolation inflicted or self-inflicted upon the Jewish populations of the world, I would guess the figure would scarecely rise were you to look at things in the more general perspective.

Furthermore, if you scroll down the website you'll notice "On the high end of realistic estimates of how many people would consider themselves Jews seems to be about 15 million, but a figure this high would include a large number of non-practicing, purely ethnic Jews" (boldfacing added for emphasis). It's those "ethnic Jews" that have been the primary subject of this topic, I should think.

And to switch back to the topic at hand, I don't particularly like Pollini or Kempff or Brendel. Pollini, for the obvious reasons; Kempff, because I find he tends to "understate" everything he plays, sortof like Arrau, but he doesn't have the same "nobility" as Arrau (that's the only word I could think of! ); and Brendel for his mind-numbingly plain Schubert and earlier Beethoven (and later Beethoven to, though I think for those his dryness has a certain charm of its own).

But Michelangeli, Giesseking, and Rachmaninoff are three pianists off the top of my head who are certainly notable of mention, and none of them were gay (to my knowledge) or Jewish.

[rimv2]

This is simply untrue. If you've been around Jews for a while, as I've been (I'm Jewish), you can tell with about 90% accuracy who's Jewish simply by looking. Judaism is different than other religions because Jews have very rarely inter-married with other peoples for all the 4000-some years they've been around. Of course, if a native Jamaican decides to convert to Judaism, that makes the line a bit more blurry.

FYI: Sometimes indicates a conditional statement
Its nether wholely true, nor wholely false. 90% accuracy only

This statement is likewise ridiculous. Roughly .22% of the world's population is Jewish (https://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html). With the amount of isolation inflicted or self-inflicted upon the Jewish populations of the world, I would guess the figure would scarecely rise were you to look at things in the more general perspective.

.22% of billions is a hell of a lot. And of course the statement is ridiculous. So is the idea of a person being considered anything simply for being born in certain family. Ah exaggerate a bit to show the how it is absurd. Something absurd on a small level appears ridiculous when exaggerated.

Here's a realistic example of what ahm saying:

There's is a tribe in afrika. They all have dark skin, but have been genetically proven to be descendants of abraham. They consider themselves to be  Jewish. They practice christianity. They believe Jewishness, for lack of a better word, is inborn. They follow many of Jewish traditions and yet they follow the christian bible as well. If religion is part of the Jewish culture, how can they be Jewish and study another religion? Any race and cultural studies professor will say they are wrong for assuming Jewishness to be inborn, and that they have actually created is another way of life all together by mixing the two.

Furthermore, if you scroll down the website you'll notice "On the high end of realistic estimates of how many people would consider themselves Jews seems to be about 15 million, but a figure this high would include a large number of non-practicing, purely ethnic Jews" (boldfacing added for emphasis). It's those "ethnic Jews" that have been the primary subject of this topic, I should think.

Okay so there's Judaism as an ethnicity and Judaism as a religion? If the religious aspect of Judaism is a part of the culture, or ethinicity as they call it, how can this be true? The answer is that it can't, regardless of what one believes. Ah will regurgitate once again. If one does not practice the rituals of a culture/religion, one is not really a part of said culture/religion.

Keep arguing and ahll have to wip out superlong bernhard/treatise- esque post ya

[gorbee natcase]

There was a Jew and a Chinese sitting at the bar drinking. All of a sudden the Jew turns and punches the Chinese in the face knocking him off his stool, stunned the Chinese gets up and says, "What the hell was that for?"

The Jew replies, "That was for Pearl Harbor."
The Chinese says, "That was the Japanese, I'm Chinese."
The Jew says, "Well you have black hair squinted eyes and buckteeth, it's all the same to me."

The Chinese says "Okay" and sits on his stool and continues drinking. About a half hour later the Chinese turns and punches the Jew in the face knocking him off his stool. The Jew gets up and says, "What the hell was that for?"

The Chinese says "That was for the Titanic."
The Jew replies, "The Titanic? That was an Iceberg."
The Chinese says, "Iceberg, Goldberg, Steinberg, it's all the same to me."

[gilad]

hahahahaha

blumberg, feinberg,berger.rosenberg,wynberg.

could also apply to scandinavians.

[cfortunato]

No, it IS arrogant.   religions make their own rules - you don't make them FOR them.  If Roman Catholics say you have to be baptized to be Roman Catholic, even if you go to Mass every Sunday, then you have to be baptized to Roman Catholic.   Period.  And if Jews say that Jewishness is determined by birth through the mother, then it is.  PERIOD.  Their rules aren't for YOU to decide.  You don't have that authority.

If your mother in Jewish, you can emigrate to Israel.  And that should settle that.

[gilad]

the nuremburg laws decided that if one of your grandparents was jewish it made you jewish.even if you had been baptised and came from 2 generations of catholism or whatever.  of course had they said that you can't be born jewish it would have made things a lot easier for a lot of people,some irony for rimv2 .but i do see where rimv and others are coming from and that is freedom of choice and freedom of association, and i fully respect that that is what they believe and have every right to.

[gilad]

If your mother in Jewish, you can emigrate to Israel.  And that should settle that.

interestingly as a token to all those that were considered jewush and lost there lives for it in the holocaust i thnk that if you have one jewish grandparent you're entitled to become an israeli citizen straight away, ironically many people from russia now live in israel that aren't jewish even by their own definition and volition, in fact there are a small band(tiny) of neo-nazis operating underground that serve in the israeli army.

[prometheus]

Since I started this...


My point was that there is a difference between being ethnic jewish and being a jew because of your religion. One could even dissect this even more by adding culture and nationality.

I am not interested in defining when someone can call him or herself a jew. If someone wants to call herself/himself jewish, fine. If someone wants to disagree with that, fine. This was not my point at all. Surely the religious dogma's of judaism aren't as clear as in christianity. But this is not the point.

Surely there is no jew-gene. So considering family heritage or ethinicity as a basis for calling yourself jewish is tricky. There are no human races, every human gene pool is unique. This is all very blurry. It would make no scientific sense. Considering jewish heritage or ethnicity would be totally artificial. But this was not my point.

The point was, it is unclear what the original list talks about. Religious jews, ethnic jews, cultural jews, etc. So the point of the list is non-existant. And if all three are on the list then some people on this list will have no similarities. Then it would be a totally random list with very different people on it.

[hodi]

this conversation is endless
i live in israel and we had many discussions about it in class "define jew, who is a jew?"
there are many interpertations to this statement.

[gorbee natcase]

this conversation is endless
i live in israel and we had many discussions about it in class "define jew, who is a jew?"
there are many interpertations to this statement.

I know that is why I will keep on making jokes

[presto agitato]

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

Who Is a Jew?
Level: Basic


Origins of the Words "Jew" and "Judaism"
The original name for the people we now call Jews was Hebrews. The word "Hebrew" (in Hebrew, "Ivri") is first used in the Torah to describe Abraham (Gen. 14:13). The word is apparently derived from the name Eber, one of Abraham's ancestors. Another tradition teaches that the word comes from the word "eyver," which means "the other side," referring to the fact that Abraham came from the other side of the Euphrates, or referring to the fact Abraham was separated from the other nations morally and spiritually.

Another name used for the people is Children of Israel or Israelites, which refers to the fact that the people are descendants of Jacob, who was also called Israel.

The word "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim. Other sources, however, say that the word "Yehudim" means "People of G-d," because the first three letters of "Yehudah" are the same as the first three letters of G-d's four-letter name.

Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?

This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.

Although all Jewish movements agree on these general principles, there are occasional disputes as to whether a particular individual is a Jew. Most of these disputes fall into one of two categories.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question.

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis.

From jewfaq.org


Of that list of pianist who was orthodox?

[rimv2]

No, it IS arrogant.   religions make their own rules - you don't make them FOR them.  If Roman Catholics say you have to be baptized to be Roman Catholic, even if you go to Mass every Sunday, then you have to be baptized to Roman Catholic.   Period.  And if Jews say that Jewishness is determined by birth through the mother, then it is.  PERIOD.  Their rules aren't for YOU to decide.  You don't have that authority.

It's not arrogant. It's common sense; logic. Such rules and beliefs are founded on ignorance. Birth entails nothing - yet people use it to decide race, religion, class, and personality. Many people even make it their basis of prejudice.

A white guy talks like this. A black guy drives like this - and he loves himself some chicken. Asians are-are-are w-w-well mannerd, well disciplined, and g-good at mar-mar-mar-karate. Le french, zey are z how you say, snobs. Muslims need Jesus. Being  rich means that one must always have an air of sophistication and pompus dignity. Hispanic people are hot headed main - they'll cut you like whoa. Ahd love ta have a jew as mah investment banker, cuz you know how good they are with money. 

Let's take a person born in southeast asian. Toss this person into a Jewish community at birth. Assuming this person is not ostricized for being different (or even told its different for that matter), this person would behave and live as a Jewish person.

Take a person born a jewish community. Toss it in a community of hyper racists. Assuming the same conditions as above, this jewish person is now simply a racist.

The point: Birth entails nothing, its the environment or culture a person is raised in that ultimately affects how the person will develope. So someone born of a Jew or any other group will not always be a part of that group.

Is a criminal turned priest still a criminal?

Is a heterosexual turned homo still hetero?

Axe yourselves these simple yet thought provoking questions

If your mother in Jewish, you can emigrate to Israel.  And that should settle that.

This is nothing more than an ignorant practice. A child can either choose to become a part of a culture or have the culture forced on to it.

By ignorant ah mean unfounded.

Ahd continue but ahd just be repeating myself again and again.

If you believe meh arrogant for speaking the logical truth, then ahve overestimated your intelligence.