List of Jewish pianists, wow...

[orlandopiano]

It's a pretty impressive list:

Charles Alkan
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Emanuel Ax
Victor Babin
Gina Bachauer
Dmitri Bashkirov
Daniel Barenboim
Simon Barere
Boris Berman
Lazar Berman
Victor Borge
Alexander Borovsky
Alexander Brailowsky
Yefim Bronfman
Ignaz Bruell
Shura Cherkassky
Harriet Cohen
Bella Davidovich
Misha Dichter
Samuil Feinberg
Vladimir Feltsman
Annie Fischer 
Leon Fleisher
Yakov Flier
Claude Frank
Ignaz Friedman
Emil Gilels
Grigory Ginsburg
Leopold Godowsky
Alexander Goldenweiser
Richard Goode
Gary Graffman
Mark Hambourg
Clara Haskil
Myra Hess
Vladimir Horovitz
Eugene Istomin
Byron Janis
Joseph Kalichstein
William Kapell
Julius Katchen
Mindru Katz
Louis Kentner
Evgeny Kissin
Vladimir Krainev
Lili Kraus
Wanda Landowska
Ruth Laredo
Josef Lhévinne
Rosina Lhévinne
Radu Lupu
Hephzibah Menuhin
Benno Moiseiwitsch
Ignaz Moscheles
Murray Perahia
Menahem Pressler
André Previn
Michael Roll
Moritz Rosenthal
Anton Rubinstein
Artur Rubinstein
Nikolai Rubinstein
Harold Samuel
András Schiff
Artur Schnabel
Peter Serkin
Rudolf Serkin
Abbey Simon
Solomon (Cutner)
Wladyslaw Szpilman
Mark Taimanov
Carl Tausig
Sigismund Thalberg
Rosalyn Tureck
Isabella Vengerova
Alexis Weissenberg
Paul Wittgenstein
Maria Yudina

...oh, and orlandopiano

[zheer]

I think you may be wrong, Andras Schiff, a hungerian Jew, Radu Lupu , Shnable an Austrian jew, Kissin might be jewish .

[prometheus]

Are we talking about the religion, ethnicity, cultural background, parents or nationality?

[tds]

and uchida......


heh...life is listful

[tds]

sorry, i might've been drunk. please carry on......

[rimv2]

If they dont wear beanies or celebrate jewish holidays, they are not jewish.

Judaism is a religion. No one is born jewish.

[orlandopiano]

If they dont wear beanies or celebrate jewish holidays, they are not jewish.

Judaism is a religion. No one is born jewish.

First off, it's called a yarmulke (or kippah), not a beanie.  I don't wear one in public, but I am still Jewish.

Secondly, we have no idea which ones on this list go to services, celebrate holidays, and which ones don't. Yes many of them are probably considered Jewish because they were born into a Jewish family but they may not practice it. But then again, none of them ever publicly stated that they converted to another religion, so that's why they are on the list.

The list btw was obtained from jinfo.org

[rimv2]

First off, it's called a yarmulke (or kippah), not a beanie.  I don't wear one in public, but I am still Jewish.

Secondly, we have no idea which ones on this list go to services, celebrate holidays, and which ones don't. Yes many of them are probably considered Jewish because they were born into a Jewish family but they may not practice it. But then again, none of them ever publicly stated that they converted to another religion, so that's why they are on the list.

The list btw was obtained from jinfo.org

Starting a post with "first off" makes one assume you are arguing. Don't want to argue but will state - If a person does not actively practice a religion that person is not really a part of the religion. No one is a part of a religion simply because they were born into a family that practices the religion as following the rituals of religion are what make the religion.

[orlandopiano]

Starting a post with "first off" makes one assume you are arguing. Don't want to argue but will state - If a person does not actively practice a religion that person is not really a part of the religion. No one is a part of a religion simply because they were born into a family that practices the religion as following the rituals of religion are what make the religion.

Well, sir, you're the one who started the argument by bringing up speculation.

No one really knows how much or how little these people practice Judaism, if at all.  But one can be considered a Jew based on any number of things: their religion, their nationality, their ethnicity, their culture... Judaism can include three types of people: Those who practice it and have a Jewish ethnic background, those without Jewish parents but have converted to it, and those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jewish by virtue of their family's Jewish descent and their own cultural and historical identification with the Jewish people. Most Jews regard themselves as a people, members of a nation, descended from the ancient Israelites.

If it makes you feel better, you can ask the website to make a new list of "Pianists Who Are Hardcore Jews, Keep Their Heads Covered At All Times, Consume Only Kosher Food, Never Perform On Shabbat, etc..."

[gilad]

If they dont wear beanies or celebrate jewish holidays, they are not jewish.

Judaism is a religion. No one is born jewish.

orlando piano is correct, being jewish is more than purley a religion.
I'm jewish, yet i dont believe much in the relgious aspect.
Jews share a heritage that dates back thousands of years and we are a nation as much as a religion.
like italians, greeks, norwegians, or spaniards, jews are a nation.

[prometheus]

Therefore, the adjective 'jewish' is so ambigious it is practically meaningless, making this list and topic meaningless.

[leahcim]

Therefore, the adjective 'jewish' is so ambigious it is practically meaningless, making this list and topic meaningless.

Not really, it seems the same as Christian...lots of them that don't fit any strict definition lucky it is that way for the huuge traffic jam there'd be here on a Sunday if all 70% that claim to be one actually did any of the things you'd expect.

The main difference is that, aiui, being Jewish or gay seems to require you mention the fact at least 4 to 6 times during any conversion that has nothing to do with either subject

I feel left out.

"How did your piano lesson go dear?"
"I'm heterosexual, like this list of people...interesting eh?"
"Err..."
"...and I'm an atheist like that Dawkins chap..."
"..but...."
"Sorry, what were you saying?"

[franzliszt2]

Horowitz once said........."Theres 3 types of pianist, Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists"

[hodi]

i'm jewish

[da jake]

Me too, heh.

As far as I know, Alkan was the only notable orthodox Jewish composer-pianist in history.

[mrchops10]

I don't want to appear insensitive, but wouldn't being an orthodox Jew create real problems for your career? I mean if you can't play on Friday nights...

[rimv2]

Well, sir, you're the one who started the argument by bringing up speculation.

No speculations.

Facts

Merely pointing out a general misconception that has led to much badness in the past.

[da jake]

I don't want to appear insensitive, but wouldn't being an orthodox Jew create real problems for your career? I mean if you can't play on Friday nights...

I'm not orthodox!

Alkan was. I doubt he would have played on Fri-Sat night.

[prometheus]

Not really, it seems the same as Christian...

Not really because it is the same as christianity? First of, what does this similarity have to do with my point?

Secondly, there is no real similarity. If someone talks about christianity we know they are talking about a religion. If someone tells me 'I am jewish' I have no idea what they are talking about. Being 'jewish' is meaningless. If someone tells me they are christians now I actually know something.

There are jewish atheists, jewish arabs, jewish americans etc. So what is jewish? Surely those three fictional people don't have similarities per se.

[leahcim]

Not really because it is the same as christianity? First of, what does this similarity have to do with my point?

Your point was that your belief that there's an ambiguity in the meaning of what "Jewish" is meant that it's a meaningless word and a pointless thread. My point is that, if Jewish is meaningless [it isn't] then for similar reasons "Christian" would be too.

Secondly, there is no real similarity. If someone talks about christianity we know they are talking about a religion.

Not when it comes to someone saying they are Christian, nor especially when you look at their beliefs and their actions [and indeed the beliefs and actions of people who say they aren't Christians]

Some people believe they are Christian because they live in a particular country that they consider Christian. You could say that "Christian" means you've been baptised as one - which covers a lot of non-believers. You could say it's following a religion, but there are many believers who don't actively go to church etc. There are plenty who get married, get their kids christened and get buried in a Christian manner who aren't Christians from the pov of their behaviour or stated beliefs. There are gay people who claim to be Christian and Christians who don't accept premises in the bible about women and gays and ones that do. There are Christians who don't believe the bible literally and ones that do.

In short, someone saying they are Christian doesn't tell you much unless they expand.

I don't see much difference w.r.t someone saying they are Jewish, albeit I expect the person who says it has a clear meaning. Equally there are thousands of other labels and words that people apply to themselves and others that I could have used as an example other than "Christian" that, from your pov, must be meaningless.

This bit of the world isn't black and white either.

Mebbe someone could start a thread on Zebras?

[prometheus]

Jew Pronunciation Key  (j)
n.

   1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
   2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
   3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.


Chrisˇtian Pronunciation Key  (krschn)
n.
   1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
   2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Evenly ambigious? Surely you are very wrong here. If we are talking about religion then christianity is very clear. Judeaism isn't. And christianity only refers to the religion. While jew/jewish can be about nationality, ethnicity, culture and religion. And in the case of religion it isn't as clear as christianity either.

[leahcim]

Jew Pronunciation Key  (j)

<sigh> Look up maths. You won't learn what maths is from a dictionary. Why do you expect to learn what Jewish or Christian is from it better than you can from Jewish or Christian people?

Perhaps you should look up "dictionary" and see that the book isn't pretending to be what you hope quoting it will make it.

[prometheus]

Well, I already knew this. And most people do. Why didn't you believe me? Or did you fail to understand? What choice did I have? I had three options, scream 'you are wrong' really loud, find an objective source and proof it or give up.

Do I need to show you the context of every time 'jew' and 'jewish' in literature so that you can extract the meaning yourself?

What is your point. Surely Jewish refers to all tthese four things mentioned, while christianity is just the religion of Jesus Christ.

[leahcim]

Well, I already knew this. And most people do. Why didn't you believe me? Or did you fail to understand? What choice did I have? I had three options, scream 'you are wrong' really loud, find an objective source and proof it or give up.

Keep the dictionary open then. Look up the word "set". Hopefully you'll see that, according your "logic" it's meaningless because it is aiui an English word that has more meanings than any other.

There are, sadly, many ugly uses for the word "Jew" in history in literature - that clearly isn't what the posters here used to word for though, so words can have more than one meaning, yes?

Can you not grasp the simple concept that "Jewish" can have more than one meaning and yet still have meaning? You can do that and still hold dear to the concept that the dictionary is authorative in some way if you like. Although I think once people start using words to communicate  they don't necessarily have exact dictionary definitions in mind - that's not the way language works, but let's stick to easy concepts.

[gilad]

Keep the dictionary open then. Look up the word "set". Hopefully you'll see that, according your "logic" it's meaningless because it is aiui an English word that has more meanings than any other.

There are, sadly, many ugly uses for the word "Jew" in history in literature - that clearly isn't what the posters here used to word for though, so words can have more than one meaning, yes?

Can you not grasp the simple concept that "Jewish" can have more than one meaning and yet still have meaning? You can do that and still hold dear to the concept that the dictionary is authorative in some way if you like. Although I think once people start using words to communicate  they don't necessarily have exact dictionary definitions in mind - that's not the way language works, but let's stick to easy concepts.

well said leahcim.

[bernhard]

"Oh, I could spend my life having this conversation - look - please try to understand before one of us dies."
(John Cleese)

 

[prometheus]

Leahcim, slowely you are getting there, it took you a while but still.

So, if words can have different meanings, how does one know which one applies? Maybe you should thing about this for a while and how this relates to this topic.

 You have been on the retreat this whole discussion, adapting new views in an attempt to win this discussion. Maybe if you stop thinking about how you can beat me in a discussion and focus on the real issue you will get somewhere.

I am done lecturing. If you still refuse to get it, well thats too bad. This really isn't rocket science. Surely one does not have to understand the nature of human language ability to know one cannot extract useful information from the list mentioned.

[rimv2]

Ironically, ah opened a can of worms...

Ironicallly, they all went back in by themselves...

[leahcim]

So, if words can have different meanings, how does one know which one applies?

You ask, like you did - and afaict, the reply is there from the person who made the list, describing the origin of the list, and from others with definitions matching your own, and some perhaps slightly different ones too.

From that, I conclude it's a list from a site of Jewish pianists and if I cared what they meant by Jewish, I'd know where to start looking

The thing is, you decided that Jewish could have more than one definition when you asked, by listing some potential ones - but after the replies you decided that "the adjective 'jewish' is so ambigious it is practically meaningless" - which, as you can see, I didn't concur with but, afaict, neither did you 8 posts before when you listed some, nor a few posts later when you started c&p from dictionary.com

I think this site explains it https://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

[stevie]

only thing i dont like about jews is the lack of foreskin.

[mrchops10]

Can I propose a truce? A person is a Jew if they say they are a Jew! If Horowitz or whoever claims to be a Jew and eats pork and performs on a Friday night, he obviously wasn't orthodox, but to claim he isn't a Jew is ridiculous. Ultimately, being a Christian is the same way. But, given the history of the Jewish people in Europe and America especially, I can't imagine anyone would claim Jewishness except if it comes from great conviction. Being a Jew has not usually been very convenient, so I'm prepared to take any "Jew" at his word.

[orlandopiano]

Can I propose a truce? A person is a Jew if they say they are a Jew! If Horowitz or whoever claims to be a Jew and eats pork and performs on a Friday night, he obviously wasn't orthodox, but to claim he isn't a Jew is ridiculous. Ultimately, being a Christian is the same way. But, given the history of the Jewish people in Europe and America especially, I can't imagine anyone would claim Jewishness except if it comes from great conviction. Being a Jew has not usually been very convenient, so I'm prepared to take any "Jew" at his word.

Excellent thoughts.

[prometheus]

I never said anything about when someone can call her or himself a jew. Or about the level of orthodoxy required.

No one has any idea about how this list is composed. This list is just as stupid as the homosexual list a way back.


About the list. There is no real explenation of how this list is put together. But, the foot notes suggest the people on the list are jewish if they have a parent who is considered 'jewish', again I have no idea what this means. One of the footnotes explains the basis for putting pianist Istomin on the list is an article in the WP with this line in it: "Istomin's parents were 'of Russian-Jewish ancestry.'" So Istomin had parents with a russian-jewish ancestry, whatever that means. So he is jewish. Sure. I don't really understand, but maybe it is me.

Even Bobby Fischer has made their list. I guess he is a 'secret jew' then.

I get the impression that in 200 years everyone is 'jewish'. Surely if you follow your heritage tree down there must be someone who is 'jewish' somewhere.

[mrchops10]

Actually, I have to say if Bobby Fischer was labeled a Jew by the thread, I would also have some serious doubts. I don't know that the Jewish people would want to claim this person:

Pablo Mercado: Why do you have this thing about the Jews?
Bobby Fischer: I have no thing.. They have a thing about me.
Pablo Mercado: *laugh*
Bobby Fischer: Study the history.
Pablo Mercado: Really?
Bobby Fischer: Are you a Christian?
Pablo Mercado: Yes, I am.
Bobby Fischer: Well, you know. the Catholic Church. the Catholic Church taught for a long time about that they're guilty of the murder of Christ, right?
Pablo Mercado: Yes. So? *laugh*
Bobby Fischer: You know.

This quote comes from an interview in light of a minor scandal that Bobby Fischer claimed was a conspiracy by Jews. Most of the rest of the interview is to vile to even post, but you can get the point. You can find it here: https://www.ishipress.com/fischer1.htm

At best, then, the thread is inconsistent. How could they claim Bobby Fischer, and not mention Mendelssohn? His grandfather was a prominent Jewish intellectual, and Wagner's viciously anti-Semitic attack on Jewish influence in German music was largely aimed at the (ostensibly converted) Mendelssohn. Just a thought.

[gilad]

At best, then, the thread is inconsistent. How could they claim Bobby Fischer, and not mention Mendelssohn? His grandfather was a prominent Jewish intellectual, and Wagner's viciously anti-Semitic attack on Jewish influence in German music was largely aimed at the (ostensibly converted) Mendelssohn. Just a thought.

very true.
this thread has been great in my opinion, very stimulating.

[rimv2]

very true.
this thread has been great in my opinion, very stimulating.

Ironically,

If you can understand what certain peoplre are saying,  that is

Example:

You ask, like you did - and afaict, the reply is there from the person who made the list, describing the origin of the list, and from others with definitions matching your own, and some perhaps slightly different ones too.

From that, I conclude it's a list from a site of Jewish pianists and if I cared what they meant by Jewish, I'd know where to start looking

The thing is, you decided that Jewish could have more than one definition when you asked, by listing some potential ones - but after the replies you decided that "the adjective 'jewish' is so ambigious it is practically meaningless" - which, as you can see, I didn't concur with but, afaict, neither did you 8 posts before when you listed some, nor a few posts later when you started c&p from dictionary.com

I think this site explains it https://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

Learn to use a period mah friend, and learn to use it well

[hodi]

read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi

[cfortunato]

If they dont wear beanies or celebrate jewish holidays, they are not jewish.

Judaism is a religion. No one is born jewish.

I believe that according to Jews, Jewish status is, indeed, conferred by birth, through the mother.

[steve jones]

Orlando,

It might have been easier to compile a list of non-jewish pianists, to be honest 

[rimv2]

I believe that according to Jews, Jewish status is, indeed, conferred by birth, through the mother.

Unfortunately they is wrong. As anyone can become Jewish. If anyone can become jewish then being Jewish is choice rather than something born with.

You cant be born with something you have to choose.

[prometheus]

See, this proves my point.

[gilad]

See, this proves my point.

No, the only thing it proves is that different religions and cultures have differing beliefs about what constitutes being of that culture or religon. it's that simple. this sort of thing isn't a natural science with laws, it's about religious conventions that were set up by religious leaders. the same way that i found it interesting that one isn't born a christian, you find it unbelievable that according to judaism a jew is born a jew.

As for being a jew being a choice, it is a choice, if you want out you can convert to christianity or islam or whatever you wish, but that person will most likely tell you they were born jewish and converted. a person can also convert to judaism obviously, but as Bernhard said^^^

[prometheus]

I don't think you understand.

[iumonito]

Unfortunately they is wrong. As anyone can become Jewish. If anyone can become jewish then being Jewish is choice rather than something born with.

You cant be born with something you have to choose.

Absurd.  I was born Catholic and have that imprimatur regardless of now considering myself a protestant.  You can convert to Catholicism, but (figuritavely speaking) you cannot convert out.  I mean, you can renouce the beliefs, but the culture stays with you.

And by the way, Prom and Rimv2, if you truly believe being a Chirstina is not only a cultural thing and that you can be a Christian without ever going to church or professing the believes, you have never been to Latin America, where more than 90% of people consider themselves Catholic and never do either thing.

[cfortunato]

Unfortunately they is wrong. As anyone can become Jewish. If anyone can become jewish then being Jewish is choice rather than something born with.

You cant be born with something you have to choose.

Jews are wrong about who is and is not a Jew?  And you know better than Jews how to determine who is and is not a Jew?

My God, that's unbelievably presumptuous and arrogant.

[presto agitato]

Horowitz once said........."Theres 3 types of pianist, Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists"

Now i see why Alfred Brendel, Pollini and Kempff are bad pianists...

[Motrax]

But they are bad pianists! 

[zheer]

Now i see why Alfred Brendel, Pollini and Kempff are bad pianists...

Three of the most successfull pianists you randomly consider as bad painists, if you only new what you are talking about we could have a discussion. I think the only reason you say that is because you think it may make you sound intelligent.

[presto agitato]

Three of the most successfull pianists you randomly consider as bad painists, if you only new what you are talking about we could have a discussion. I think the only reason you say that is because you think it may make you sound intelligent.

I was joking idiot.

I just trying to say that  not all the great pianists have to be homosexuals or jews.

[zheer]

I was joking idiot.



WOPS