the key to interpreting Chopin?

[stevie]

in general, what are your thoughts on how his music should be played?

restrained and elegant vs. bold and dramatic

alot of rubato vs. not so much rubato..

i believe alot of people mistakenly think they should play chopin's works the way he did, while this is awesome and perfect for the noctures, and some other works, chopin simply didnt have the strength or technique of liszt, and he wished he did!

we should play chopin not the way he played, we should take note that he was amazed and in awe of liszt's playing of his etudes and other works.

this tells us that chopin was no pussy, there should be no limit to the dynamic range you can use, and no limit to emotional expression.

i think this is especially pertinent now because of the chopin competition, see what the jurors look for, are they looking for the best things that make a truly awesome chopin pianist?

honestly, i dont think so.

[zheer]

According to Horowitz we should play Chopin like Mozart and mozart like Chopin.
Am not sure exactly what that means, but perhaps he means strictly and not too freely with the tempo.Little rubato and gently.

[stevie]

gently?

when appropriate yes, but as i said, chopin was no pussy

and yes, chopin wasnt a rubato ***, he kept a steady tempo most of the time, and the rubato was mainly in the singing line...that famous trick of keeping the left hand in time and 'borrowing time' in the right.

[bernhard]

in general, what are your thoughts on how his music should be played?

restrained and elegant vs. bold and dramatic

alot of rubato vs. not so much rubato..

i believe alot of people mistakenly think they should play chopin's works the way he did, while this is awesome and perfect for the noctures, and some other works, chopin simply didnt have the strength or technique of liszt, and he wished he did!

we should play chopin not the way he played, we should take note that he was amazed and in awe of liszt's playing of his etudes and other works.

this tells us that chopin was no pussy, there should be no limit to the dynamic range you can use, and no limit to emotional expression.

i think this is especially pertinent now because of the chopin competition, see what the jurors look for, are they looking for the best things that make a truly awesome chopin pianist?

honestly, i dont think so.

Restrained and elegant and with subtle rubato.

Although Chopin’s music is now considered one of the summits of Romanticism, Chopin himself was no Romantic, being really of a Classical temperament (unlike, for instance, Beethoven, who had an overly Romantic temperament). He had an overriding preoccupation with “good taste”. And today, with the present climate of classifying divergent behaviour with medical metaphors, he would be probably diagnosed as maniac-depressive.

He might have been in awe of Liszt’s technique and strength, but he abhorred the way Liszt played his pieces. Here is one of many accounts (by Moritz Karasowski, one of Chopin's students and also an early biographer whose Life and Letters of Chopin appeared in 1879):

One evening, when they were all assembled in the salon, Liszt played one of Chopin's nocturnes, to which he took the liberty of adding some embellishments. Chopin's delicate intellectual face, which still bore the traces of recent illness, looked disturbed; at last he could not control himself any longer, and in that tone of sangfroid which he sometimes assumed he said, "I beg you, my dear friend, when you do me the honor of playing my compositions, to play them as they are written or else not at all." "Play it yourself then," said Liszt, rising from the piano, rather piqued. "With pleasure," answered Chopin. . . . Then he began to improvise and played for nearly an hour. And what an improvisation it was! Description would be impossible, for the feelings awakened by Chopin's magic fingers are not transferable into words.

When he left the piano his audience were in tears; Liszt was deeply affected, and said to Chopin, as he embraced him, "Yes, my friend, you were right; works like yours ought not to be meddled with; other people's alterations only spoil them. You are a true poet." "Oh, it is nothing," returned Chopin, gaily, "We each have our own style."


And Chopin was a bit of a pussy: He had his hair coiffured every morning by a hairdresser, and wore white gloves constantly, since he did not like to touch people directly.

Having said that, he died in 1849, so I guess anyone can play his music any way they please. (But don’t expect to win competitions judged by people of a different inclination if you do).

If, however,  you are truly interested in Chopin’s way of playing and his ideas (not Liszt’s, not Lang lang’s and not some competition juror), then I strongly suggest you read the fascinating “Chopin: Pianist and Teacher – as seen by his pupils” by Jean –Jacques Eigeldinger (Cambridge University Press). You may be very surprised at what is in there.



Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[sonatainfsharp]

Everything Bernhard said are things I have heard before, and I want to add a few things, as I studied with a Chopin specialist for a short time.

As far as embelishments, Chopin played them a lot like Bach--starting on the upper-auxiliary, embelishments during repeats, etc.

As far as Chopin's piano, it was very weak--he has lots of pedal markings in his music because he was trying to get more out of his piano; those pedal markings can't be taken as literal as many people take them. I have played a Chopin replica piano and it was extremely difficult.

Chopin was known to be the quiet guy in the corner; spoke softly, didn't like to socialize as much as he did, etc.

As far as "play Mozart like Chopin," there are definitely hints of Mozart being a very strong romantic, but for some reason, we are generally expexted to play his last works just like his early works. His c minor Fantasy, for example, is one of the most romantic pieces I have ever studied.

[prometheus]

Well, didn't Chopin say Liszt played his etudes much better than he himself did? How does this compute? Was Chopin a really afwul pianist or is Bernard wrong? Or was Chopin contradicting himself?

Chopin needs balanced rubato. The level of rubato throughout the whole piece should stay stable. The music should sound held back.

[leahcim]

Description would be impossible .... Chopin's magic fingers are not transferable into words.

Was what he said  just after that something about demonstration?

Can you recommended a recording or 3 that does it "Chopin's" way?

[BoliverAllmon]

I played the Raindrop once for my teacher. About half way through the piece he started laughing outloud. I continued a bit, but finally had to stop. I asked what was up. He thought it was funny that we were playing a Chopin prelude, but all I hear is Liszt.

Chopin is delicate, not terribly overpowering, but not pathetic either. My teacher likes to play Chopin alot like Bach. He says that Chopin admired Bach's cantabile style. Therefore he uses alot of the same techniques between the composers. Rubato is kept on the low end.

boliver

[zheer]

Hi bernard its intresting that you mention that book , am going to re read it, here is a qoute by Chopin, Time is still the best critic,and patience the best teacher.
A chopin qoute from another book, simplicty is the highest goal one can acheive when one has overcome all that is difficult. A true genious.

[rc]

Well, didn't Chopin say Liszt played his etudes much better than he himself did? How does this compute? Was Chopin a really afwul pianist or is Bernard wrong? Or was Chopin contradicting himself?

Chopin needs balanced rubato. The level of rubato throughout the whole piece should stay stable. The music should sound held back.

From what I've read, Chopin didn't like Liszt's style, was envious of Liszt's fame, and envied Liszt's strength. I think the idea is that Chopin was too weak from tuberculosis to be able to play his pieces the way he would have liked.

Sidethought; laughing at someone's interpretation is intolerably rude.

[lostinidlewonder]

Chopin always insisted upon smooth playing by his own pupils. He encouraged his students to attend or join choirs, operas so that they could understand a singers phrasing and expression. Bad phrasing on the piano in Chopin's mind was exactly like someone speaking in a language that he did not understand, a "speech" that he had been laboriously memorised.

Chopin to Karol Mikuli (Head of piano teaching at the Conservatoire in Lwów)
"The musician who phrases badly shows that music is not his mother-tongue, but something quite foreign and unintelligible to him."

So the idea of identifying a singing voice in Chopins piano music is very helpful and important to maintaining effective phrasing and smoothness of your playing.

Concerning Chopins "tempo rubato" Liszt said rather poetically,

"In his playing the great artist renders enchantingly that sort of emotional trepidation, timid or breathless, that seizes the heart when one believes oneself to be in the presence of supernatural beings..... He always made the melody undulate like a light boat borne on the bossom of a mighty billow, or else he would give it a wavering motion, like an aerial apparition suddenly arising in this tangible and palpable world. He indicates this in his compositions... by words tempo rubato: stolen, broken time, at once supple, abrupt and languishing... like a cornfield rippling under the soft pressure of a warm breeze, like tree-tops bent hither and thither at the whum of a capricious gust."

Mikuli's descrition is less poetic

"While the singing hand, either irresolutely lingering or, as in passionate speech, eagerly anticipating with a certain impatient vehemence, freed the truth of the musical expression from all rhythmical fetters, the other, the accompanying hand, continued to play strictly in time.

A music critic of the Athenaeum was quoted by Frederick Niecks (biographer of Chopin Frederic Chopin as a Man and Musician  pub:1902  It can be downloaded for free at https://manybooks.net/titles/niecksfretext04fkchc10.html )  as saying

"He makes free use of tempo rubato: leaning about within the bars more than any player we recollect, but still subject to a presiding measure such as presently habituates the ear to the liberties taken."

However Chopin did not tolerate any rhythmical sloppiness, Madame Streicher assures us that he detested any sign of languor, dragging of the time, misplaced rubato and exaggerated ritardando.

And Chopin was a very shy person, not bold brave, not a showman at all.

Chopin to Liszt
"The crowd embarrasses me. I feel stifled by their breathing, paralysed by their curious glances, mute before their strange faces. But as for you, you are intended for them by fate, for if you cannot win your public, you have the power to stun them."

Chopins playing was very delicate, often his p sounds where too soft for people to hear and he would be always criticised for playing too softly.

[mound]

Great discussion.  My two favorite composers to play have got to be Chopin and Bach. Chopin for the gut wrenching emotion, Bach for the "mind f***" as it were

"With pleasure," answered Chopin. . . . Then he began to improvise and played for nearly an hour. And what an improvisation it was! Description would be impossible, for the feelings awakened by Chopin's magic fingers are not transferable into words.

When he left the piano his audience were in tears;

To be able to do that, quite honestly, is my only goal in music.  Probably why I've been spending more time of late not learning repertoir, rather, freely improvising (in the mindless manner of "Effortless Mastery" and along the musical lines we tend to hear from our forum member Ted, as far as I've gathered)

-Paul

[stevie]

i guess i was trying to find an excuse for playing chopin fast, loud, and furious 

how can it be wrong when it sound so GOOD?!!?!

[spirithorn]

i guess i was trying to find an excuse for playing chopin fast, loud, and furious 

how can it be wrong when it sound so GOOD?!!?!

You may not win any competitions that way, but so what?  Unless you're playing for a jury of some kind, I don't think you need any excuse.  If you like Chopin fast, loud, and furious, then go for it.  He's not going to come back from the grave and chastise you for violating some "Chopin tradition".  And who knows, if he did come back from the grave, he might like it "fast, loud, and furious" (at least occasionally...). 

[mound]

Seriously, play it however you like.  I remember when I played the Raindrop Prelude at a recital, it was dripping with *my* emotion, and that middle section was pretty enormous with those crashing chords.. Did it strictly adhere to "tempo rubato" via. a rock solid left hand with the RH stealing and giving back time? Yes and no. Was it purely delicate throughout the intro and coda?  Perhaps not. But it literally brought one woman to tears, and again after when she came up to me, gushing emotion herself telling me how moved she was by my performance.

It worked for both of us. Would Cliburn jurys laugh at it? Maybe, then again, maybe not.

My teacher would always say things like "you are tempted to play it like that because you have played it so many times, and you're trying to make it more interesting for yourself, but remember that the audience is just hearing it for the first time (or again after some time) and they are the people you are trying to make it interesting for, not yourself"

to an extent there is much truth to that, and of course the degree of truth will directly relate to both your experience with the piano and how inately musical you are.

So keep it in context. Perhaps in a performance, keep in mind that it will be fresh for the listener and be aware of what is gratuitous and self satisfying, vs. musically satisfying to the listener.

But alone? Hell, play with every emotion you can muster, it'll help you explore the piece, its character, how its character relates to you.. That's the beauty in all of this. Constraint without Constraint ("a style of no style" as Bruce Lee would say) . be yourself, be adaptable with the character, and then when you are to perform it, your options will be wide.

That's just my humble opinion.

-Paul

[exigence]

Seriously, play it however you like.

^ Winner.  You can tear something apart trying to give what you think is a faithful representation of how, say, a particular piece might've been played by the man himself in 1830, but meanwhile, if you're not happy doing so...

Just my opinion, as well.  Some people liked Horowitz for what he did, and others, not so much.  "God gave us music so that we might pray without words," and I don't think everybody's prayers are the same.

[stevie]

Seriously, play it however you like.  I remember when I played the Raindrop Prelude at a recital, it was dripping with *my* emotion, and that middle section was pretty enormous with those crashing chords.. Did it strictly adhere to "tempo rubato" via. a rock solid left hand with the RH stealing and giving back time? Yes and no. Was it purely delicate throughout the intro and coda?  Perhaps not. But it literally brought one woman to tears, and again after when she came up to me, gushing emotion herself telling me how moved she was by my performance.

It worked for both of us. Would Cliburn jurys laugh at it? Maybe, then again, maybe not.

My teacher would always say things like "you are tempted to play it like that because you have played it so many times, and you're trying to make it more interesting for yourself, but remember that the audience is just hearing it for the first time (or again after some time) and they are the people you are trying to make it interesting for, not yourself"

to an extent there is much truth to that, and of course the degree of truth will directly relate to both your experience with the piano and how inately musical you are.

So keep it in context. Perhaps in a performance, keep in mind that it will be fresh for the listener and be aware of what is gratuitous and self satisfying, vs. musically satisfying to the listener.

But alone? Hell, play with every emotion you can muster, it'll help you explore the piece, its character, how its character relates to you.. That's the beauty in all of this. Constraint without Constraint ("a style of no style" as Bruce Lee would say) . be yourself, be adaptable with the character, and then when you are to perform it, your options will be wide.

That's just my humble opinion.

-Paul

sincerity moves me in a performer more than many things.

hearing a performer playing exactly the way they wish, at ease with their environment, just messing around, these are the moments when i feel the most magic happen in recordings.

an objective performance may be satisfying to some, but i love it when a performer does exactly what you says, makes the piece their own, reflects the music and emotions of the composer through themselves in a way that may not be how the composer exactly played himself, but in the most sincere way the performer can play it, the way he wants and thinks it sounds best.

poissibly.

[arensky]

restrained and elegant vs. bold and dramatic

alot of rubato vs. not so much rubato..

Both, it depends on the particular piece you are playing....

this tells us that chopin was no pussy, there should be no limit to the dynamic range you can use, and no limit to emotional expression.

Of course he wan't, and the limitless dynamics are fine but must also include ppp....emotional expression should NEVER be limited in music, as long as it's coherent...

i think this is especially pertinent now because of the chopin competition, see what the jurors look for, are they looking for the best things that make a truly awesome chopin pianist?

honestly, i dont think so.

I don't think so either. I don't think the 21st century is in tune with the 1830's and 1840's,  we have lost touch with what made this music work and how to acheive that, thanks largely to modern performance practice, which claims to be historicaly informed but in the case of 19th Century literature is way off base. The results of many competitions bear this out.

Anyway an anecdote, don't know if it's true or not, I think it is, gives your viewpoint some considerable ammo, Stevie...

Chopin was once listening to a young pianist play his "Military" Polonaise in A op.40 #1 when the young man broke a string. Embarrased, he stopped playing, stammering his apology. Chopin turned to the boy and said "Young man! If I had your strength there would not be a string left in that piano!"

Cool, huh? Of course I believe Chopin was referring to this piece, not the Nocturne op.9 #1, where this sort of playing would be innapropriate. There you go Stevie, if this is true you are in the right ballpark... I think you are anyway. 

BTW I will see all of you later, I have to prepare midterm exams and finally learn my spring program; I will be around just not very often...

[stevie]

yes, of course i dont mean to be fast and furious in random noctures.

thats the very story which i was thinking of then i made this topic.

people say you should always hold back in chopin, dotn ever go too loud...or too furious..

but look, in the score to the 10/4, what does it say at the coda?

with as much INSANE FURY as possible!

respect the chopin.

[practicingnow]

According to Horowitz we should play Chopin like Mozart and mozart like Chopin.
Am not sure exactly what that means, but perhaps he means strictly and not too freely with the tempo.Little rubato and gently.

Even though he was the greatest pianist of the last century, I would not be in a hurry to take advice on how to play Chopin from Vladimir Horowitz - not a great Chopinist...

[chopiabin]

restrained and elegant vs. bold and dramatic

alot of rubato vs. not so much rubato..

i believe alot of people mistakenly think they should play chopin's works the way he did, while this is awesome and perfect for the noctures, and some other works, chopin simply didnt have the strength or technique of liszt, and he wished he did!

we should play chopin not the way he played, we should take note that he was amazed and in awe of liszt's playing of his etudes and other works.

 For starters, I think that there is no implicit demand to play pieces "like the composer would have played." I think that you can be reserved in some pieces and more Romantic  in others  - it depends on the piece and the intentions and interpretation of the performer.

[quasimodo]

Q - the key to interpreting Chopin?

A- Preferably the one indicated on the score key signature, muhahahahaha