Question About Key's and Time Signatures

[fuel925]

Everyone knows that to find a key of a piece, you have to look at the key signature. This is all very well and good, but the key signature tells you it could be one of 2 keys... but not specificially which one. How do you find out if it is the major key, or minor key?

About time signatures... I understand that the notes and rests in a bar will add up to the time signature, but I dont understand how this affect the playing.. i.e. why a piece in 4/8 will sound different to 2/4.

Basic stuff I know, but im just trying to tie up some loose ends, and would appreciate the help. Thanks!

[will]

About time signatures... I understand that the notes and rests in a bar will add up to the time signature, but I dont understand how this affect the playing.. i.e. why a piece in 4/8 will sound different to 2/4.

A piece in 4/8 may sound the same as one in 2/4, depends how one counts and plays.
4/8 is generally counted 1 2 3 4 per bar. 2/4 is generally counted 1 2 per bar.
So 4 eighth notes (quavers) in 4/8 would be counted '1 2 3 4', each note of similar intensity.
4 eighth notes in 2/4 would be counted '1 and 2 and', perhaps resulting in notes following more of a loud soft loud soft.

[fuel925]

A piece in 4/8 may sound the same as one in 2/4, depends how one counts and plays.
4/8 is generally counted 1 2 3 4 per bar. 2/4 is generally counted 1 2 per bar.
So 4 eighth notes (quavers) in 4/8 would be counted '1 2 3 4', each note of similar intensity.
4 eighth notes in 2/4 would be counted '1 and 2 and', perhaps resulting in notes following more of a loud soft loud soft.

Good advice, thanks! Any info on my question about keys?

[xvimbi]

Often, the last chord in the piece gives away whether it is major or minor. Also look at the modulations throughout the piece to find out if the piece is centered somwhere in minor or major.

[nightmarecinema]

Often, the last chord in the piece gives away whether it is major or minor. Also look at the modulations throughout the piece to find out if the piece is centered somwhere in minor or major.

In addition to this, your ear is usually a good indicator.

[casparma]

for the time signature:

2/4: you count 1 and 2 and. There is an accent on 1.


4/8: you count 1,2,3,4. There is an accent on 1 and another weaker accent on 3.


Does this help?

[sonatainfsharp]

Yes, with 3 being weaker than 1 (otherwise they would sound the same).

Time sig's are how the music is "felt."
Key sig's are about what your ear hears.

For example, Bach's Clavier Toccata in d minor (urtext) has NO B FLAT in the key sig. But every b is flatted throughout the score.

[nightmarecinema]

Yes, with 3 being weaker than 1 (otherwise they would sound the same).

Time sig's are how the music is "felt."
Key sig's are about what your ear hears.

For example, Bach's Clavier Toccata in d minor (urtext) has NO B FLAT in the key sig. But every b is flatted throughout the score.

But that's not really what he's asking. It's more, if there are no sharps or flats in the key signature, how do I know  I'm in C major and not A minoir? In your example, the key signature says c major, but the actual score suggests that it's d minor, which is a little different.

Although, along the same lines - if I'm in A minor, but every G is raised, then I'm really in A harmonic minor.

[phil13]

Yes, with 3 being weaker than 1 (otherwise they would sound the same).

Time sig's are how the music is "felt."
Key sig's are about what your ear hears.

For example, Bach's Clavier Toccata in d minor (urtext) has NO B FLAT in the key sig. But every b is flatted throughout the score.

Mozart's Fantasia in C minor has no key signature either. All you can do is try to discern the main chord with your ear, as the people above me said. I n'normal' key signatures, the feeling of a major key or a minor key is pretty easy to figure out once you have some practice at it.

Try, for example, first hitting a Bb major chord. The hit a G minor chord. Both have the same key signature, but they sound very different. For further contrast, hit first an F major, then a Bb major- dominant and tonic. Then hit a D major followed by a G minor. Looking for these chords can help you find out.

Often, the last chord in the piece gives away whether it is major or minor. Also look at the modulations throughout the piece to find out if the piece is centered somwhere in minor or major.

True. Sometimes, though, a piece will end in a Picardy third, the major chord of the minor key. Others, like Chopin's Ballade in F major or the Fantasy in F minor, change key. This makes it pretty tough (that is, unless you know that they are the Ballade in F major and the Fantasy in F minor.) 

Just believe what you think is right.

Phil

[fuel925]

Thanks for all the advice I read somewhere that you can tell if what appears to be C Major is actually A Minor if the 7th is raised in the score. I'm not sure if thats exactly what it said, but it was something along those lines. Could someone clarify?

[abell88]

I read somewhere that you can tell if what appears to be C Major is actually A Minor if the 7th is raised in the score. I'm not sure if thats exactly what it said, but it was something along those lines. Could someone clarify?

In minor keys, the 7th note is often raised a semitone. This helps establish the tonality, as the "leading note" (a semitone below the tonic) leads to the tonic very strongly.

In A minor, the 7th note would be G, according to the key signature. Very often, you will see G#s in the music. (The 6th note is also sometimes raised in the minor.)

[silvaone]

Hi

I also have a question on time signatures.....

I have learnt a few songs (yes songs not pieces) with the time signature 12/8 but this is only because I have heard the original recordings and played along to help me learn......

now Im learning a new song (Ray Charles' You Dont Know Me) Its not a perfect transcription of piano, it implements double bass and strings and the time signature is really confusing me

does it count something like this

1, 2 and 3, 4 and 5, 6 and 7, 8 and ..... etc.

very confused 

thanks in advance

- Silva

[fuel925]

In minor keys, the 7th note is often raised a semitone. This helps establish the tonality, as the "leading note" (a semitone below the tonic) leads to the tonic very strongly.

In A minor, the 7th note would be G, according to the key signature. Very often, you will see G#s in the music. (The 6th note is also sometimes raised in the minor.)

very very helpful, thanks!!

[xvimbi]

now Im learning a new song (Ray Charles' You Dont Know Me) Its not a perfect transcription of piano, it implements double bass and strings and the time signature is really confusing me

I'd love to have the score for this one. Where did you get it, and what do you think about it?

[maryruth]

SILVAONE:  About 12/8 time....It should feel like 4 beats to the measure.  So, If there are a bunch of dotted quarter notes in the bass then each of these get 1 beat.  (but the 8th note gets one count).  Subdivide the 8th notes into groups of three and count like this.  1 dotted quarter note = 3 8th notes.  A quarter note would then get 2 counts.  Any quarter notes would have a real syncopated feeling in this time signature, which can sometimes be diffcult.  

 1 & a   2 & a   3 & a    4  &   a
 1 2 3   4 5 6    7 8 9   10 11 12

[sonatainfsharp]

My point about the key signatures is that you have to hear it more than anything because often the signature means nothing beyond which notes to play:

"one sharp in the key signature" for example can mean EIGHT different keys: G maj, a dor, b phry, c lyd, d mixo, e minor, or F# loc, or any synthetic key sig someone might have made up.

*Edit* You can always look at the first or last note of a piece, but does that say something? Check out the opening bar of Brahm's Rhopsody in g minor. It seems to start on the V in g minor, but the first full bar begins on an E-flat major chord, first inversion, or are those actually non-harmonic tones suspending the entire phrase to the first cadence in.... G Major? Golly-gee. This piece happens to clearly end in g minor, though with a lot of emphasis on D major (if I recall), so we accept "g minor" in the title, although Brahms never said that--he just said "I have these here two Rahopsodies, published as Op.79."

"nothing in the key sig" can mean absolutely anything.

Also, Shubert's Impromptu D.899/4(?) "says" A-flat Major in the key sig, but it starts in a-flat minor, but it ends in A-flat major and that is how he wrote the key sig, so we accept "Impromptu in A-flat Major" as an accepted title.

Also, it doesn't have to be this complicated: Only very early music and modern music has stemmed away from two choices for each key signature, with few exceptions in between.

Regarding the counting of the time sig you presented, measures that can be counted in multiple ways utilize "compound time sig" because the counting in compounded, and Maryruth wrote out.

This confuses kids because it proves that 6/8 does NOT have to = 3/4 like they learned in math class! And it drives them NUTS! I had a kid tell me that he literally argued with a teacher and said that 6/8 = 2/4 because you count 6/8 in two, yet you reduce the fraction in math to 3/4.

[silvaone]

wow thanks MaryRuth that really helped

xvimbi I got it from www.sheetmusicdirect.com.... it is nice to have it as a transcription especially since it has all the chords so anyone well versed in the world of chords could easily play it chordally instead of the way in which it is written and get that real piano solo feel to it (Ray Charles Style)

If you want, put your email here and Ill scan it for you and send it to you

I have many many many many Ray Charles songs.....

here is the first page -
www.ukbboys.homestead.com/files/youdontknowme1.jpg

here is a tiny wav file of bar 5 and 6 (2 notes form bar 7) from the same page
www.ukbboys.homestead.com/files/bar5and6.wav

am I keeping correct time?

thanks

- Silva