Important question to Bernhard RE 10/1

[daniel patschan]

Dear Bernhard,

Since i am very frequently reading your posts and since you obviously seem to be one of the most experienced guys in terms of teaching the piano on the planet (i mean it serious) i desperately need to ask you for help. One of my biggest wishes is to play the first Chopin study (10/1). I tried to play it a number of years ago but i didn't succeed. Now that i have restarted to practice the piano i really want to learn it. I can play the whole piece with 110/min. But - of course my fingers are not developed far enough i know that for sure. If i have decided to follow your most reasonable approach - playing repertoire pieces that increase the ability to (someday) play the piece of desire - which pieces would you recommend for preparing Chopin 10/1 ? It can not be pure technical work - meanwhile my right hand really hurts due to repeating Hanon and Pischna in order to increase strength. This way must be wrong.

Sincerely,

Daniel

[mrchops10]

Well, I'm not Bernhard , but I'll give it a shot anyway:

Yes, you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. Op. 10/1 is one of the most dangerous pieces in the reportoire, and I personally know someone who destroyed his hands playing this one. The way you are practicing now, it looks as if you're going to join him. First of all, you should NEVER practice until your hands hurt! I can't offer any sophisticated anatomical reason, but all you are doing is straining your tendons. This will in no way help you to play op. 10/1.

Even in Chopin's time, the story was that you had to have large hands to play this etude. Chopin dismissed this notion, saying only a supple wrist is required. Instead of playing note for note, you must roll the hand, moving the wrist upward at the end of each 4 note figure. It is very difficult to describe, and that's why you must have a teacher. Do you? And is he qualified to teach a piece like this? Have you talked with him about your problems here?

So it isn't at all about finger strength, all you have to practice is the correct movement, and then playing the notes accurately. If you can see your fingers lifting up from your hands, you are doing it wrong. To prepare, the most obvious choice would be Chopin op. 25/12, a rather simpler, though similar, technique. Also, I would recommend playing Scarlatti sonatas with a light hand and a free wrist. This may help you develop the necessary skills.

Good luck! Take care.

[steve jones]

Absolutely. I cant play this piece (it is far to advanced) but I do like it, and have read much about playing it correctly.

Apparently, the great man himself did not have large hards. He did however has extremely flexible fingers and wrists, and it is the latter which is being tested in this etude. Even with the a comfortable tenth reach, I would still much rather learn the correct technique and avoid unnecessary strain.

As for the finer points of the technique, well, I will leave that to the big boys 

[rimv2]

To prepare, the most obvious choice would be Chopin op. 25/12, a rather simpler, though similar, technique. Also, I would recommend playing Scarlatti sonatas with a light hand and a free wrist. This may help you develop the necessary skills.

Ironically

There is no preparation for this piece.

The technique gained in this piece is indispensible.

It cannot be learned from anywhere else, but can be applied virtually everywhere.

Ah've been experimenting with this piece, and ah've gotten almost to the very end at full speed without such pain. When ah feel it, ah stop, cause it means ah reverted back to the incorrect sheyat somewhere along the way.

Keeping mah elbow out a little more than usual (relaxed ), ironically seems to aid in the flow -  Ahz a weird pregnant cat . However, do not seek help fo this baddaz pregnant cat online. Not even The Big B can help you with it without being face to face (assuming he knows the tech)

Cold me down ma damie

[violinist]

I tried this piece as one of the first things to try when I decided to pick up piano again after having left it for about 25 years.  I have had 4 years of lessons from age 5 to age 9.

Needless to say.  I gave up on it.  Maybe I'll revisit it after I find some more secrets on how to play this piece!  the 10/1  legendary!

[rimv2]

The secret is that it cannot be played like any other piece in standard repertoire, unless pieced played in standards repertoire are played after learning this piece

[spirithorn]

This is indeed a remarkable Etude.  As some commentators and editors have pointed out, it will seem virually impossible at first.  The key to building accuracy and tempo for me is (as has been covered in detail elsewhere on this forum) not practicing slowly, but practicing the correct movements in slow motion.  A big hint regarding the correct movement:  if it hurts it is NOT correct.  But when it finally does flow, it is exhilarating.

[rimv2]

And another thing- Practicing those finger excersizes for more than ten minutes a day is stupid. All you are doing is repeating a pattern over and over again. There are too many ways to do them wrong and the longer you practice the more you increase your chance of doing so.

Also, let say you have a problem with double thirds in a certain piece so you do an excersize in double thirds. If the exercise only focus's on double thirds then you are better off just practicing the original piece. It not only has the double thirds in it, but it also allows you to practice the portion of the piece leading to the double thirds, which is really key to their execution.

You can do double thirds in all keys but it wont prepare you for a chord progression to double thirds to chromatics runs to double thirds to staccato leaps. Ironically, practicing this all together will

Or practice da mental preparedness shistuff

[acha114]

This is indeed a remarkable Etude.  As some commentators and editors have pointed out, it will seem virually impossible at first.  The key to building accuracy and tempo for me is (as has been covered in detail elsewhere on this forum) not practicing slowly, but practicing the correct movements in slow motion.  A big hint regarding the correct movement:  if it hurts it is NOT correct.  But when it finally does flow, it is exhilarating.

I practice this etude slowly, but what is the correct movement anyway. I've been practicing slowly for a long time and haven't progressed so I figure that something is not right. Can you describe the correct movement???

[gorbee natcase]

https://www.chopinmusic.net/library.php?w=Etudes

This may help, from some other nice piano forumer

[spirithorn]

I practice this etude slowly, but what is the correct movement anyway. I've been practicing slowly for a long time and haven't progressed so I figure that something is not right. Can you describe the correct movement???

It would be much easier to have a competent teacher show you than to try to describe it in words, but I'll give it a try.  Bear in mind that this is what works for me.  First of all, concentrate on relaxation.  This Etude is not about trying to "stretch" and reach each arpeggio as if it were a chord.  On the other hand, the "motion" is somewhat like playing a rolled chord, except you release each note as it is played and the next is struck, rather than continuing to hold the previous note (as in a rolled, or "arpeggiated" chord).  And please don't be discouraged at slow progress on this piece.  Some of the "greats" have spent literally years working on it.  When the correct motion is utilized, it is possible to play this Etude "legato", without pedal, even with small hands.  You might try setting the metronome at 100, but start with 100 per eighth note (2 clicks per arpeggio).  This is, of course, the equivalent of practicing it at 50, but practicing with a click per eighth rather than quarter will help with evenness.  Good luck, and remember:  Relax.  Keep the wrist supple and don't let the shoulders come up.  I'm an older pianist who hasn't has a formal teacher for a long time, so I had to "discover" the way that worked for me by reading (many excellent posts of this forum, for example), and experimentation.  You CAN do it!

[daniel patschan]

Thank you very much for your advices - the solution must obviously be the correct motion pattern. Propably nobody is able to play it as a 'fingerpiece'. I was just irritated by Valentina Lisitsa's video showing her performance of the studies. It looks like she is using her fingers very strongly, especially during the movements to the keybord's right end. But maybe it just looks like that . . . .

[spirithorn]

I was just irritated by Valentina Lisitsa's video showing her performance of the studies. It looks like she is using her fingers very strongly, especially during the movements to the keybord's right end. But maybe it just looks like that . . . .

She is using her fingers, of course!  But it is a matter of the origin of the motion of her fingers.

[paris]

One of my biggest wishes is to play the first Chopin study (10/1). I tried to play it a number of years ago but i didn't succeed. Now that i have restarted to practice the piano i really want to learn it. I can play the whole piece with 110/min. But - of course my fingers are not developed far enough i know that for sure. If i have decided to follow your most reasonable approach - playing repertoire pieces that increase the ability to (someday) play the piece of desire - which pieces would you recommend for preparing Chopin 10/1 ?

i'm not bernhard (obviously haha) but i've been playing this etude for some time and i could give you few advices and my experience. first of all, do learn the notes to be comletely sure and aware where fingers go on each position. its very important because when playing at full-speed, you won't have time to look at your fingers and control-i'd say it should be automatic. i even tried playing with closed eyes. its kinda fun, and can help you in certain ways. but without other excersizes won't be much help. (when i say excersizes, note-i don't refer to hanon and co.) 

everybody who is saying that only wrist and motion of moving hand are important-is wrong.well, just half correct.  this etude requires very stable 4-5 finger. and yes-you DO have to have strenght in your fingers, because if you just relax your wrist and let your fingers get flabby, it'll sound uneven and blur.
to sum up-two most important things are get your hand COMLETELY relaxed, without tension. muscle pain is ok, and you don't have to bother with that, as long as your hand and wrist doesn't get stiff and paralysed. i believe mei ting made good point on muscle pain, do some searching. when rolling your hand-be aware of your fingers, cos after all its pretty much all finger work. in real full speed, there's no time for huge motions. speeder you get, smaller motion should be. simple logic.

some advices which could help. if you're just starting this etude, don't even think of playing it fast. be sure you can get all positions easily, without effort in slow tempo. be focused on clarity. you mustn't get used on wrong notes. don't play faster if you can't play completely correctly in slower.
use different exercises (it'd be very long to write them here, and i think i've written some of them in older threads). those exercises are very helpful to me, and they (if practised properly) can help you very much. another very important thing-practise WITHOUT pedal. its good cos you'll learn to get legato by your fingers (although on some positions is impossible get perfect legato without pedal). but remember, when played faster, you won't be able to make perfect legatissimo, just try to think of arpeggios as one line.

don't get demoralised, i've spent many days, weeks on it, and many times i was desperate, and then it just something happens, like click and it improves suddenly. important thing is to play it everyday. if there's no time for practising, just go through it once.

i wish you luck!

[daniel patschan]

Thank's a lot ! 

[rimv2]

(although on some positions is impossible get perfect legato without pedal)

Agree with everything except this.

If you can reach an eight you can reach anything in this piece with legato8)

[rimv2]

Thank you very much for your advices - the solution must obviously be the correct motion pattern. Propably nobody is able to play it as a 'fingerpiece'. I was just irritated by Valentina Lisitsa's video showing her performance of the studies. It looks like she is using her fingers very strongly, especially during the movements to the keybord's right end. But maybe it just looks like that . . . .

She's actually playing it as it should be played

Or a least

The way ah play it

[paris]

(although on some positions is impossible get perfect legato without pedal)

Agree with everything except this.

If you can reach an eight you can reach anything in this piece with legato8)

well ...i don't have very small hands and they're quite stretchy and i still have problems with some positions to make legato at fast tempo. particulary one of them is on 2nd page, d#-b-a-b

[spirithorn]

well ...i don't have very small hands and they're quite stretchy and i still have problems with some positions to make legato at fast tempo. particulary one of them is on 2nd page, d#-b-a-b

Try this (just a suggestion).  This would be much easier to demonstrate than describe verbally.  After taking the d# with 5, begin to swivel the wrist to your left, take b with 4, and a with 3, continuing the swivel to take the lower b with one.  Use each finger as it strikes as a pivot for the swivel.  (Isn't this highly technical language!).  The motion repeats with each iteration of the pattern descending.  I totally agree that this is not an easy area of the piece, but it is possible to play it legato at a fast tempo.  (I can just reach a white key 10th).  Since this is pedaled, strict "legato" is not necessary, but practicing the whole piece without pedal is helpful to me.  BTW, the most difficult pattern in the whole Etude for my hand is c - eb - a - eb ascending.

[paris]

After taking the d# with 5, begin to swivel the wrist to your left, take b with 4, and a with 3, continuing the swivel to take the lower b with one.  Use each finger as it strikes as a pivot for the swivel.  (Isn't this highly technical language!).  The motion repeats with each iteration of the pattern descending.  I totally agree that this is not an easy area of the piece, but it is possible to play it legato at a fast tempo.  BTW, the most difficult pattern in the whole Etude for my hand is c - eb - a - eb ascending.

i use different fingering then you. 5-3-2-1 (d#-b-a-b)
yeah c-eb-a-eb is one of nasty ones indeed. ''a'' always sounds too weak. do you use 1-2-4-5 as its written? i find it easier with 1-2-3-5

[rimv2]

i use different fingering then you. 5-3-2-1 (d#-b-a-b)
yeah c-eb-a-eb is one of nasty ones indeed. ''a'' always sounds too weak. do you use 1-2-4-5 as its written? i find it easier with 1-2-3-5

That's slightly a little more stretching but if it work

[spirithorn]

i use different fingering then you. 5-3-2-1 (d#-b-a-b)
yeah c-eb-a-eb is one of nasty ones indeed. ''a'' always sounds too weak. do you use 1-2-4-5 as its written? i find it easier with 1-2-3-5

I stated incorrectly in my original post.  For the (d#-b-a-b) I use 5-3-2-1 just as you do.  But the comments about the pivoting still describe the method I use (works most of the time!).  For the
(c-eb-a-eb) I use 1-2-4-5.  For some reason, the movement from 4 to 5 on the a to eb is easier for me than going from 2 to 3 on the eb to a.  That's why I use 1-2-4-5.  And I have a "pivot" on the a, as described above.  You're absolutely right about the difficulty of getting the a to articulate clearly.  And I have to make sure the 4th finger is bent enough not to fall between the adjacent black keys.  Let me say that this is the most challenging piece I have studied to date, by far.  For me, it requires unwavering concentration.  I can't take any section of it for granted.  Getting all the way through, even at slower tempos, without missing a note is quite an accomplishment (for me).  I don't (at least at this time) have a goal of playing it at 176 to the quarter.  Somewhere around 132, maybe.  To my ears, it's such a masterful Etude that it still sounds great well below 176.

[rimv2]

True. But you'll be surprised awed shocked and dazzled when you hear yourselve playing a tempo. You feel even more shocked awed dazzled and amazed when you realize you are not the only one who can hear it

[chopiabin]

Bernhard, where are you?

Well, this was an etude I thought I wouldn't even consider until I'd played at least five or six other etudes in addition to the ones I have now (Revolutionary - learning, Aeolian - learning, Ocean - performing), but I was looking for a 4th etude to play for a spring recital (also op.48#1 and 3rd ballade) and was thinking about op.10#5 which is cool. But I started looking at op. 10#1 when I was bored with my usual pieces and was actually surprised how approacable it seems. I decided to just read through the right hand of the first page a few times to see how miserably I would fail, but I didn't! I was really surprised and kept going, relatively slowly until the end of the etude with only a few major difficulties.

Most of my difficulties just come in the really widespread descending arpeggios sometimes, but I think they can be worked out since today was my first attempt. It seems like one of those pieces that you won't be truly happy with for years, but that can't hurt to memorize and work on now - it's a really amazing technique advancer. I think that having a large hand could be of some advantage in this etude because a larger hand will still have a larger range when it is "contracted". Oh, does anyone ever find it easier to play some of the arpeggios 1-2-3-4 with no five involved?

Another question I have has really more to do with my teacher than me. She's an amazing and technically gifted pianist and she's an amazing teacher, but I know this is one of those pieces that she loves but I don't think has ever gotten it perfect. Whenever I even bring up the etudes she talks about the 10-1 and how hard it is. My problem is that I have a LOT larger handspan than she does, and in the other etudes I'm doing we often have fingering differences that make it easier for me because my hand is naturally larger, and I would feel kind of bad if this piece was easier for me learn than it was for her. Don't get me wrong, I have no delusions of grandeur - this piece will be hard as hell and I probably won't publicly perform it (if I even decide to do it) for 8 or 9 months or a year. I can probably get it at a moderate but not too slow speed relatively quickly, so....I'll probably try.

Should I ask my teacher? I don't want to seem arrogant or anything, but I really do want to make an attempt.

Does anyone have any more helpful links, articles, stories, tips, etc. that they can post?***Bernhard ***

PS. How does Perahia play it like that?

PPs. The ocean etude totally helps on technique in this piece.

[paris]

Oh, does anyone ever find it easier to play some of the arpeggios 1-2-3-4 with no five involved?

playing with 1-2-3-4 is like cheating. if you wanna take full advantage from this etude it should be played 1-2-4-5 cos of developing and improving 4-5 fingers. and after all accuracy and speed difficulties IMO strenghtening and developing 4-5 fingers is the most demanding to accomplish.

Should I ask my teacher? I don't want to seem arrogant or anything, but I really do want to make an attempt.

my teacher also didn't want to let me play this etude.i didn't understand why cos i wasn't familiar with chopin etudes at that time. i learned it on my own and literally forced her to listen me. finally she agreed to just go through with me, then to take it just as excercise and then she sent me on masterclass with it...
stubborness is good thing isn't it? 

PPs. The ocean etude totally helps on technique in this piece.

and opposite? does the 10/1 helps with ocean etude in your opinion?

[chopiabin]

The 10-1 seems like it will definitely help 25-12. I played through the ocean after working on the 10-1 today, and I didn't even have to think.

The 1-2-3-4 thing is only really on one of the runs, and I decided today to use 1-2-4-5 on that one.

How long did you work on it before you felt comfortable performing it? How long until you got it at full (or close to full) speed?

The end is another problem - do you HAVE to decrescendo at the end?

Do you think it's ok to perform the piece, but slowly? Or should I wait until it's speed perfect?

[rimv2]

1234 is not only cheating but will make the arps sound odd.

You should feel comfortable playing this piece after two years.

You have to crescendo and decrescendo throughout the entire piece, especially at the end. Most edition have the dynamics on the score

[chopiabin]

Thanks!! I really enjoy working on this piece and I can't wait until I don't have to use the score at all.

Now if I could only figure out the deal with my teacher...

[rimv2]

Ah was a practicing this piece today at full tempo when that same ache that creeps up came on strong. Ah decided to analyse this intensely to understand the cause of the problem. First ah raised mah wrist - a slight ache. The problem had something to do with lifting. Then ah began to lift each finger one by one. Thumb, bada. Pointer, nada. Middle finger - holy freaking hell!!! Ring, nada. Pinky, nada.

Ironically, when ah thought ah was playing completely relaxed mah middle finger was actually being lifted as the other fingers went down - something ah believe is very bad. Ah played the piece again at full temp focusing on keep 'all' mah fingers relaxed. The only thing ah felt was the natural fatigue that comes about from repeating such a sick piece at such a sick pace.

-indentify the problem - isolate the cause -  fix the problem

Ironically, this might even work with your piano teacher

[lostinidlewonder]

I have taught this etude to a few of my more advanced students and i have found most of the problems occur if the player attempts to STRETCH their fingers to cover the shape of the arpeggio. Instead the arm should move to cover the entire keyboard not the fingers.

When one tries to strech their fingers to control a large arpeggio shape they increase the tension in their hand. This of course is not desireable. One should utitlise the balancing effect of the thumb. Once the thumb plays the hand must shift over to control the other fingers above their notes, as if they where in a group by themselves and the thumb was just one note played itself (when the RH goes up the keyboard). Knowing how to use the thumb to balance the large arpeggios is the key to 10/1. When the arpgeggio in the Rh goes down then you can see sometimes the 5th or 4th takes the balancing effect of the thumb as well.