Chopin Op. 32 no 2

[librisgeek]

I posted about this before, but my teacher and me (hehe I still can't get used to saying this "me" here instead of "I," as they are now teaching), anyways, my teacher and me are still disagreeing about how to play this piece.  If anyone knows this piece, I have a question for you:
In bar 29, I am playing the mordent as B-flat,C,B-flat, with the first two notes coming before the beat.  This is how I THINK I've heard it played by virtuosi... but it goes so fast that I am unsure.  My teacher is asking me to play it C,B-flat,C,B-flat and this sounds weird to me.  I suppose the people I've heard play it could have made those two Cs in a row sound smooth and with a rolling effect, but I'm doubting that they did.  Plus, that would be a trill, right??? and this is a mordent sign, right??? Is there any kind of trill sign that looks like a mordent?  I thought it was always just "tr" above the note...  I have combed every music dictionary/theory book that I could find and apparently different composers played the mordents differently so that is why I am still unsure.   This has been pretty frustrating for me.  I want to trust what my piano teacher says... but it just sounds too weird to me.  Any help?

[iumonito]

Good question.

The correct answer is you can play it either way.  I like your way better than your teacher's.

Now the long explanation why:  Baroque and classical trills and mordentes are often played starting in the upper auxiliary note because there are several sources suggesting this is how to play a trill (e.g., the little table J.S. Bach made for W.F. Bach, etc.)  A rule that inflexibly does this, though, I think overlooks that particularly during the baroque era the score was very much a starting point (almost like today's method of notating jazz, the score is a mere sketch that the performer is expected to flesh out).  Hence my opinion that you can start on the principal note or below if it makes sense musically (for example because you are already coming from the upper auxiliary in the melody, or because you achieve a better melodic line).

Why this detour, you may ask, as you asked about Chopin and not Bach or Scarlatti?  Chopin was quite conservative in his taste (even though his pianistic writing is indeed quite revolutionary), and your teacher is not entirely crazy by suggestin gthat you incorporate this, by then anachronic, upper auxiliary note in your mordentes.

In the particular case you ask about, though, you are coming already from teh upper auxiliary note, so even in a baroque piece I would suggest starting on the principal note.

The other trills, which start with a two-note appogiatura (a flat, b flat) are a better candidate for upper auxiliary trills.  For those I would say play it one way on Thursdays and another on Saturdays (meaning, be a little improvisatory and play it either way as the inspiration of the moment dictates).

There is a book on Chopin ornamentation, but the author escapes me at the moment.  I want to say is Dontington, but I think that's wrong.  Bernhard, you there?

[librisgeek]

Thanks for the input.  I like the idea of playing the other trills however the current mood dictates.   I'll look around for this Chopin book.  Thank you again for your input.  Like I had said, this was getting frustrating for me.   I don't have a lot of experience playing this stuff (Chopin) or even mordents and trills.  So I appreciate the input. 

[phil13]

Mordents have a slash through them, while the sign Chopin uses has none.

It makes the most sense in that particular passage to start on the principal note (Bb-C-Bb) because it keeps the melodic line unbroken.

In Bach, however, you start on the auxiliary if there is no slash because he used a different sign to indicate beginning on the principal- the squiggle with a slash through it.

Phil

[iumonito]

Phil, I think you need to check your sources.  The sign you describe may start under the principal note and revisit that lower auxiliary at the exit of the ornament.

And mordente, like grupetto, can be used generically for a short ornament, not necessarily one with the lower auxiliary.


 

[librisgeek]

Not all mordents have slashes through them, do they?  I thought that was just the reverse mordent where you start on the note below the principle note.

[contrapunctus]

Okay this is the Law: In Baroque and classical (before Beethoven) Everything startes on auxillary. A trill sign is Tr. or the squigally line. A mordent is a squigally line with a vertical line through it. This is always. In romantic(Beethoven and after) you always start on primary note and the signs mean the same. There is no such thing as an inverted mordent in baroque or classical.

This is C. P. E. Bach's table of ornaments for Baroque and classical:

https://members.aol.com/kjvisbest/jsb_ornm.htm

[iumonito]

Contra, I hope you mean that in jest.     I think you do.

Thanks for the link to J.S. Bach's table I was mentioning before as a starting point.  Would you agree that in pre-romantic music (and certainly in Chopin) the performer may improvise and vary the ornamentation according to good taste?  That being the case (as it is), then to say that ornaments must be performed in one way or another sounds anachronic and narrow-minded.  Ornamentation is an area of great freedom, there is not one right way of doing it.

And, btw, you would still need to grapple with different national schools on the subject.  French, Spanish and Italian sources are not entirely consistent.

[contrapunctus]

Contra, I hope you mean that in jest.     I think you do.

Thanks for the link to J.S. Bach's table I was mentioning before as a starting point.  Would you agree that in pre-romantic music (and certainly in Chopin) the performer may improvise and vary the ornamentation according to good taste?  That being the case (as it is), then to say that ornaments must be performed in one way or another sounds anachronic and narrow-minded.  Ornamentation is an area of great freedom, there is not one right way of doing it.

And, btw, you would still need to grapple with different national schools on the subject.  French, Spanish and Italian sources are not entirely consistent.

Wether or not you use an ornament is an area of great freedom; however, the ornament itself has many rules on how it shoulf be performed.

A performer in the Baroque era would play a trill on the auxiliary because it was the exceptable method of performance and because playing a trill on the primary had not been conceived yet. So, obviously a modern performer would research the piece and its composer to determine how the ornaments should be played.

[iumonito]

Conceived?  This is absurd.  Simple proof: if starting with the upper auxiliary note would result in parallel 5th, the ornament must not start with the upper auxiliary.

I am wasting my time no more with you.

Cheers and good luck,
H

[contrapunctus]

Conceived?  This is absurd.  Simple proof: if starting with the upper auxiliary note would result in parallel 5th, the ornament must not start with the upper auxiliary.

I am wasting my time no more with you.

Cheers and good luck,
H

Then one would not use that ornament, if that were the case.