Grades and assessment?

[Bob]

Is it even possible?  Or practical?

If you were assessing and grading, how would you go about doing that?  And doing so in a reasonable way -- not spending hours on one student in assessing them.

I'm thinking more of the formal assessment styles.  I know during a lesson you can tell whether the student understands, whether they can play it or not, whether they've practiced.  I'm thinking of the type of assessment you would submit to a supervisor -- academic style and all that.

I suppose the official piano grading system are more the type of assessment I'm thinking of.  I was never introduced to them unfortunately.  Maybe someone could point me in a direction? -- How it all works, how the judges assess students, etc.

And then how would you go about grading and assessing several hundred students in the public school system?

Just curious.

[quantum]

Interesting, the other day I was having a discussion with one of my frinds who also is a piano teacher.  She was complaining to me about how some of her students have passed an exam for a particular grade, yet she believes they are unacceptable students because they cannot do things that other students in that grade can. 

I explained to her that in my own teaching I stay away as much as possible from "grading" a students ability, but rather work with the student individually to help them improve on the many individual areas that need attention.  To me being in a grade means that you have passed a certain landmark in your journey of learning, but you have not necessarily taken the same path as other students have to reach that land mark.  Each student has their own path to a grade, they absorb some material quickly but yet other material needs time to mature in their minds before they completely understand them.  This process is different with every person, and therefore should be taken on an individual basis. 

The grading systems are good in that they let students know where on the path they are, just like street signs on roads.  However, the grading sysem should not be abused as a defacto standard of rigidity that all students must accomplish in the path to becoming a well learned musician. 

[abell88]

And then how would you go about grading and assessing several hundred students in the public school system?

Are there no expected outcomes (I mean curriculum standards already set by someone)? For example, my son started trombone in school last year (Gr. 6). He was expected to learn to play the B-flat scale, to read in the bass clef, to learn some very basic music theory (which he already knew, fortunately), to learn to care for his instrument, etc. If you have a list of what they should be able to do by the end of the term/semester/year, then you can judge to what degree they've accomplished that.  Can they play the scale accurately? Can they write a 4-bar rhythm pattern in 4/4 time? Do they know the meaning of piano, forte, and crescendo? Etc.

[maryruth]

Hmmm....Isn't music an art?  Can you score a piece of art?  Yeah, sure, a scale or a piece of musical theory can be graded....But really we can only grade what's not subjective--like a scale or a chord progression or knowledge of key or time signature.  Those are just simple basics...but I don't think we can grade an artistic performance.  Plus, I think sometimes getting caught up in making a grading system in music can take away the emphasis of artistry and that is very dangerous.  I don't think artistry can be graded as it can't completely be taught.  I child/adult either feels the music or he doesn't.  I think we need to get people to bond with the music--not with the mechanics.

Now, in a large school setting?  Oh, yeah, go ahead and grade them.  That's what you're there to do.  But, I was in school band and I don't remember the grades being too strict?  We'd have to play certain things, but not well...I think tests were just a way to get you to practice.  I once failed band in Middle School because I didn't turn in a practice record (my mother forgot to sign and return) even though I was the best flute player in band. 

[Bob]

I don't think artistry can be graded as it can't completely be taught.

Interesting quote.

Yes, I was thinking A, B, C grades of the public school.  Not the piano grade level system really.

I once failed band in Middle School because I didn't turn in a practice record (my mother forgot to sign and return) even though I was the best flute player in band.

  Are you one of my students?

[Tash]

this is the major issue i have with doing art at uni. i hate being graded and being told what to do- one of my painting teachers told be to get rid of this entire fat layer of crumpled tissue paper i'd put on the back of a canvas because he thought it concealed myconcept- it's MY concept!! and meanwhile, people can tellme they love my works and i'll get an unimpressive mark because it didn't completely fulfill the requirements of the assessment- honestly who cares, it's not going to make me a better or worse artist. meanwhile they completely ignore basic painting technique so resulting in a bunch of artists who have no actual talent in the traditional sense of painting but are obsessed with concept and using the most positively random materials that will rot the canvas in 50 years time anyway.

so the same applies to music performance. i'm bored of grades because they don't tell me anything. i failed my Amus but that's stopping me from playing Lmus pieces and playing them well. agh i'd add more tot his but must go, might write some more later cos this is the one thing that really irritates me!

[abell88]

Um...I'm guessing Bob is teaching a school band and required to mark his students for report cards?

So I'm honestly curious whether or not you  have a state curriculum that tells you what the expected outcomes are for each grade.

For example:

https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/nr/98.06/artsbgr.html

I now there is another page with more detail, but didn't have time to find it right now.

[Bob]

Yes, my state has goals and outcomes and all that.

But that's not quite the same thing as assessment and grading.  And every school is different.

I was just looking for more ideas.

Abell88, if you know that other page, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Thanks.

Thanks for everyone's ideas.

There's definitely a difference between the grading system and "assessing" art.    I'm looking for something better than what I've got that is practical and realistic.

[abell88]

This is the specific expectations for music for each grade.
https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/curricul/arts/arts.html#music

This is a description of the four levels used for elementary school assessments:

The achievement levels are brief descriptions of four different degrees of achievement of the provincial curriculum expectations for any given grade. These descriptions, which are used along with more traditional indicators like letter grades and percentage marks, are among a number of tools that teachers will use to assess students' learning. The achievement levels for the arts focus on four categories of knowledge and skills: understanding of concepts, critical analysis and appreciation, performance and creative work, and communication. When teachers use the achievement levels in reporting to parents and speaking with students, they can discuss what is required of students to achieve the expectations set for their grade. Level 3, which is the "provincial standard", identifies a high level of achievement of the provincial expectations. Parents of students achieving at level 3 in a particular grade can be confident that their children will be prepared for work at the next grade. Level 1 identifies achievement that falls much below the provincial standard. Level 2 identifies achievement that approaches the standard. Level 4 identifies achievement that surpasses the standard. For example, a student who applies some of the skills, concepts, and techniques taught, occasionally performs and creates in complete ways, uses tools, equipment, materials, and instruments correctly with frequent assistance, and sometimes shows awareness of safety procedures would be described as achieving at level 2 in the category of performance and creative work.

Don't know how helpful that really is...somewhere in my pile of stuff I also have some info on how the conservatory examiners decide on the marks in playing exams; if you like, I can look for it.

I suppose you can always use a bell curve...set a test (say, playing a B-flat major scale); give your best student or two an A, the majority B's or C+'s, and those who can't do it at all D's.

I'm glad I don't have to do it, Bob; I don't envy you the task.
Best wishes!

[squinchy]

Tee. Public School music teaching. Don't effort and behaviour count more than skill?

I think this is how it worked in my string orchestra class:

A+:

You appeared to care about music and playing as part of a group rather than just being there for your credits.

You happen to be the only one in your class who takes/took lessons, making you the melody and everyone else scratchy sounds.

You don't argue.

A:

You may be brilliant or even know how to hold the instrument properly, but you disagree with the teacher.

You use class as a time to finish up homework, refusing to touch your instrument.

You snap strings, shatter rosins, warp bows, and drop the teacher's fancy tuning device.

You're disruptive.

A- and below: Unheard of.

[Bob]

If you don't go to the concert, you can't get an A Squinchy.

[galonia]

When I first started teaching, it was in helping out another teacher.  He required us to write reports for each student each half-year, but the most important part of each report is to set 2 or 3 goals for each student for the following half-year.  These goals are set after discussion with the student.  Then for each half-year, each student knows the main areas on which they need to work.

I find that much more useful than concrete objective standards, because each child learns music for their own reason.

[zheer]

This is an intresting thread, i think i would fail if i took a grade exam, for a number of reasons, 1 i never practice scales or arppegios 2 i have never taken a theory exam, 3 never taken a ptactical exam or an oral exam. Acctually i have no musical qulifications Zero .

[squinchy]

If you don't go to the concert, you can't get an A Squinchy.

Oo-right. In the first and third marking periods, the concert is worth 35% of the grade. The only way to get out of it is to have a written explanation of the "conflict" 3 weeks in advance, but I've never heard of anyone getting a D before, and I'm sure that people have missed concerts...

[Bob]

This is why directors get stressed out and have heart attacks.

[pianistimo]

this may sound odd, but i agree with squinchy.  the arts are so neglected.  if you don't have enough students for classes- it gets cancelled and the arts program is nixed.  also, band/choir grades are the only part of their report card students can be sure that they can show their parents.  it gives them some kind of hope in a future (musically). 

i say - if they have a good attendance record, listen, generally do what you say and don't cause a bunch of trouble - that's an A. 

but, for piano lessons (private - or community college, college level)  there are somewhat higher standards because #1 you are working under different guidelines  #2 you can set your own standards #3 you can  put the fear in students by not even accepting them if they are not up to a certain level of performance.  you can let other teachers deal with problems and have fun teaching a higher level of students.

i like the MTNA guidelines for progress.  there are the ABRSM standards to look at, too.  take a piano pedagogy class if you are not quite sure of the levels.  ( i haven't done this yet).  copy your own piano teacher in terms of how fast or slow he/she demands progress.  for most of my own personal teachers - they were more concerned about truly learning a piece than rushing through it and learning quantities of music.  i think both are important, but if a student is self motivated - they will use other music as 'sight reading' in between practice or after practicing their lesson.