Liberace

[gorbee natcase]

Right here goes

I was listening to liberace playing tchykovsky's 1st piano concerto 1st movement and noticed he does not follow the score I have.

Or does he arrange (did he) arrange them himself, as the version he playes I enjoy more on page 5 where it goes (tenuto)fff is where the irregularity occures and would love Liberace's own score weather he wrote it himself or not I prefere it, please help, any direction would be great. Thanks
 

[gorbee natcase]

You know them big long arpeggios running through the main theme,

[bernhard]

Here is Liberace’s philosophy:

My whole trick is to keep the tune well out in front. If I play Tchaikovsky I play his melodies and skip his spiritual struggles. Naturally I condense. I have to know just how many notes my audience will stand for. If there's time left over I fill in with a lot of runs up and down the keyboard.

(Liberace)

That should explain it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[contrapunctus]

Liberace=gay man. nobody is allowed to listen to him

[ryguillian]

Liberace=gay man. nobody is allowed to listen to him

Seriously, stop it.

—Ryan

[mrchops10]

Liberace=gay man. nobody is allowed to listen to him

Incidentally, Tchaikovsky was gay too. Can we listen to him?

[ryguillian]

Incidentally, Tchaikovsky was gay too. Can we listen to him?

As (was / is) Claudio Arrau, Vladimir Horowitz, Kaikhosru Sorabji, Pierre Boulez, Michael Finnissy, John Corligano, Aaron Copland, and Leonard Bernstein.

Alexander Scriabin was known to have his moments, too.

—Ryan

[stevie]

Liberace=gay man. nobody is allowed to listen to him

hahaha

yes

[chopiabin]

Liberace=gay man. nobody is allowed to listen to him

You are a child. And a piece of sh*t.

[vladhorwz]

As (was / is) Vladimir Horowitz


—Ryan

Rumors!  Started by people like Zheer before Al Gore invented the internet and there was such a thing as a piano forum.  Horowitz was not gay, "not that there's anything worng with that"

p.s. You forgot Van Cliburn

[bernhard]

As (was / is) Claudio Arrau

Really?

That is a bit of a surprise (I thought he was happily married). Or do you mean Jorge Bolet?

[rlefebvr]

Liberace was gay.......when did this happen.


Vladimir Horowitz, on a side note was not gay.

This is the trouble with the internet. Anyone can say anything, whether it's fact or fiction. Problem is, you say it enough and people make it gospel.

Next thing you know, people will start believing Hanon is bad for you. 
(Just a joke, B. Just a joke.)

[zheer]

Rumors!  Started by people like Zheer before Al Gore invented the internet and there was such a thing as a piano forum.  Horowitz was not gay, "not that there's anything worng with that"

p.s. You forgot Van Cliburn

AHAM.  I dont understand what were the rumors started by me.

[mrchops10]

If zheer started this rumor, he must have wide influence. David Dubal refers to it in his book on Horowitz. Dubal claimed that Horowitz would only hear his "normal" looking male students. I'm sure he just wanted to be a father figure, though.

P.S. How did this morph into another was he/wasn't he thread?

[zheer]

No horowitz was a happly married man with a daughter. However i have seen him on a video comenting on this mans good looks as he was walking on stage. Vlad was 85 at the time.

[sevencircles]

As (was / is) Claudio Arrau, Vladimir Horowitz, Kaikhosru Sorabji, Pierre Boulez, Michael Finnissy, John Corligano, Aaron Copland, and Leonard Bernstein.

Don´t forget Richter.

[vladhorwz]

AHAM.  I dont understand what were the rumors started by me.

Sorry Zheer, I didn't mean to single you out, didn't you start the is Chopin gay post?  I just meant with someone that famous and admired all it takes is someone planting the seed and over time it turns into whatever.  Look at Richard Gere, that Gerbel thing never happened. 

[arensky]

Here is Liberace’s philosophy:

My whole trick is to keep the tune well out in front. If I play Tchaikovsky I play his melodies and skip his spiritual struggles. Naturally I condense. I have to know just how many notes my audience will stand for. If there's time left over I fill in with a lot of runs up and down the keyboard.

(Liberace)

That should explain it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Is this an actual quote, or are you speaking for him? Liberace would NEVER have said anything detrimental about his audiences....

[arensky]

Right here goes

I was listening to liberace playing tchykovsky's 1st piano concerto 1st movement and noticed he does not follow the score I have.

Or does he arrange (did he) arrange them himself, as the version he playes I enjoy more on page 5 where it goes (tenuto)fff is where the irregularity occures and would love Liberace's own score weather he wrote it himself or not I prefere it, please help, any direction would be great. Thanks
 

I do not know this recording, but I have heard him play the classics and he takes many liberties and rearranges to suit himself, although I would not call it simplification; he just "Liberaceizes" it. I know he was a very silly and strange man who was vulgar and ostentatious in everything, including his playing, but his pianistic abilities were formidable, although his playing was totally and completely tasteless...

And he laughed at his critics all the way to the bank, and gave a lot of that money to charity and struggling pianists. 

[superstition2]

Being married doesn't transform a homosexual into a heterosexual. Richter was a married homosexual, for instance. As a homosexual, I can say I have been attracted to a few women during my lifetime. The attraction is not sexual, though. I could have married at least one of them and had children, but, like most men in such a position, I would have probably had sex on the side. What is better for society is a change from acceptable bigotry to the appreciation of homosexuals for their contributions.

Many many great musicians were/are homosexual. If you're homophobic, maybe you should consider another line of work. Football, perhaps.

I have no idea whether Horowitz was homosexual/bisexual. It's possible that his depression was related to dealing with homosexuality, but I doubt it. It could be related to aging and the loss of classical music's influence; he said when he was young, he was like a rock star. His daughter killed herself, I think, too. So, depression may have been a genetic problem.

[pianohopper]

Many many great musicians were/are homosexual. If you're homophobic, maybe you should consider another line of work. Football, perhaps.

There are homosexuals in any line of work.  Football, for example: David Kopay, Roy Simmons, and Esera Tuaolo were all NFL players who came out and publicly announced they were gay.  Ant -- the comedian -- played high school football.  Ed Gallagher, a college offensive lineman for Univeristy of Pittsburg.  Jerry Smith, although he never publicly admitted it, was written about in Kopay's autobiography as his first love. 

[superstition2]

How many pro football players have come out while on a team? 0
How many are out today on pro teams? 0

So, football is a good choice for the homophobic. As a homosexual, I do know that homosexuals can be found in every profession, even political homophobe.

[leahcim]

What is better for society is a change from acceptable bigotry to the appreciation of homosexuals for their contributions.

I'd have said a change to the point where it doesn't matter and it is as irrelevant to mention in the context of some other completely unrelated activity as the supposed opposite is.

In much the same way that Samual Jackson et al could be actors rather than black actors then a pianist, footballer or whatever could be just that whatever his / her sexuality happens to be. Which afaict has to do with sexual relationships, not piano playing, carpentry, football etc.

Although there's this role model thing I guess. But to me, the fact that a person who did something good happens to share any particular characteristic that I do, like my religious beliefs, the colour of my skin, my starsign, the operating system I use, the place I was born, my sexuality or whatever else doesn't make me think I get some of the credit by association - similary for any negative things they might do too, especially, as I say, when the activity itself has little, if anything, to do with those characteristics at all.

[bernhard]

Is this an actual quote, or are you speaking for him? Liberace would NEVER have said anything detrimental about his audiences....

As far as I know it is a literal quote.

[m]

Being married doesn't transform a homosexual into a heterosexual. Richter was a married homosexual, for instance.

Yes, but the key is that he was married to a lesbian. What a truly happy union!!!
In fact, his wife Nina Dorliac was a great singer, professor of Moscow Conservatory. They deeply respected each other for the whole their life.

Here is a joke. To understand it, one should know that every nation has a set about another one. One of the popular Russian ones is about Armenian radio (which is supposedly highly homosexually oriented) answering questions.

So here it is:

Somebody asks Armenian radio if it is true that Piotr Ilyich Tchaikowsky was a homosexual. The Armenian radio answers: "Yes, it is true... but we love him not only for that reason".

[superstition2]

I'd have said a change to the point where it doesn't matter and it is as irrelevant to mention in the context of some other completely unrelated activity as the supposed opposite is.

Diversity is valuable, though. There are things that make us different from the norm, and those things can be valuable to society. Einstein's brain was abnormal in shape, and that abnormality was good for society. Being perfectly average isn't anything to aspire to.

It's necessary to be careful about arguing for a future where homosexuality is not acknowledged because there's nothing special about it, because it could be a way to argue for invisibility, the closet. I'm not suggesting that's your aim at all, but it is for some people. Another danger in not recognizing the achievements/contributions of homosexuals is a future where genetic engineering may allow people to abort homosexual embryoes. Even though it's scientific fact that homosexuality is not a disorder, people will continue to behave as if it is. That makes the possibility of designer babies very scary for homosexuals like me, because it's already hard to be a homosexual since our identities are censored and we only make up a small percentage of the population, 5-10%. If the majority of homosexuals are aborted, then the few that are born will likely face even worse persecution. The human genome has been mapped. A human embryo has been cloned. We are moving toward "genetic cleansing" where homosexuals will be eradicated.

[JCarey]

As (was / is)... Kaikhosru Sorabji, Pierre Boulez, Michael Finnissy, John Corligano...

What an odd coincidence that those four composers should all be gay - maybe writing really difficult music can cause a person to be homosexual... 

Was Alkan gay too? Godowsky?

[Etude]

What an odd coincidence that those four composers should all be gay - maybe writing really difficult music can cause a person to be homosexual... 

Was Alkan gay too? Godowsky?

Shhh, or we won't get any more incredibly difficult piano music from "contra".

very apt nickname for him, isn't it?

[JCarey]

Shhh, or we won't get any more incredibly difficult piano music from "contra".

very apt nickname for him, isn't it?

Ha! Indeed!

Heh... contra.

[celticqt]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought to myself, This is going to turn into a gay discussion!

[Etude]

Congratulations anyway, Contra, you've successfully hijacked yet another thread.

[superstition2]

What an odd coincidence that those four composers should all be gay - maybe writing really difficult music can cause a person to be homosexual... 

Was Alkan gay too? Godowsky?

It's usually difficult to say how a person's sexuality influences their music. It can be easier to analyze literature or visual art. For instance, if a gay author writes a novel with a gay protagonist, the author's sexuality is certainly relevant. If a visual artist paints paintings of subtly erotic males, then that artist's sexuality influences their work. At the same time, a gay author can write a novel that has nothing to do with homosexuality and a gay painter can paint flowers. Composers can obviously infuse their sexuality into compositions (such as an opera with a gay protagonist), or not. But, since a person's sexuality is part of who they are, it's impossible to completely separate it from one's creative work.

The solution to racism isn't to pretend that everyone has grey skin, and the solution to homophobia/heterosexism isn't to pretend that everyone is the same sexually. Homosexuality does make homosexuals different from heterosexuals, and that difference enriches society, and therefore art. Ironically, prejudice can lead to diversity in art, too. For instance, if a homosexual is in a society that is heavily homophobic, that person might create art that comes out of that experience. Yet, art can be detached from the social situation to a great degree, such as the piece composed by a Jew interned in a ghetto in the Holocaust (the guy who is the subject of the film the pianist). His piece has nothing to do with the Holocaust, despite the fact that he was living in it. Some artists react in that way. Others would do the opposite and write a piece that's influenced by their environment.

[leahcim]

The solution to racism isn't to pretend that everyone has grey skin, and the solution to homophobia/heterosexism isn't to pretend that everyone is the same sexually.

Did anyone suggest it should?

I don't think it's as important as you think. I don't care if someone is black or gay even if they do.

Evidently being gay is a big issue for you and perhaps you've met people in your life who aren't gay and it's been a big issue for them, but it's not really. Being black or gay is no more significant than being white and heterosexual. That's not saying it's not different. Of course it's different

I think you'll find that most people have some aspect to themselves that they feel makes them different [either positively or negatively] and it'll be a big thing for them too when quite often no one else really cares less. There's nothing in the bible saying it's wrong etc, so there isn't a huge fuss over nothing for 2000 years to make anyone think it's a really big issue.

This will affect their art, just like many other aspects of their life will affect it and they'll go on about it at length on the south bank show, but it's still them, it doesn't lead to any conclusion that any group that shares the difference are any better or worse because of the books, music or whatever the guy did.

It sounds pretty bad that you feel you need something like that to justify being alive - but that's probably because of the prejudice. If the prejudice didn't exist, really didn't exist then would you really need to think about everything you do in terms of your sexuality? "I'm going to brush my teeth..hmm..how do heterosexual white males brush their teeth? Hmm..McCleans or Crest?"

It might even create prejudice. Look at the piles of crap that associates certain careers or activities with men or women [and thus one side effect is someone decides that despite their sex they can kick a football or fix a car or whatever and will do that activity they are labelled gay or lesbian because of it or someone makes a tv documentary about it]

To remove that prejudice of sexism you'd have to do nearly the opposite of what you seem to want to do which is to stop attributing sexuality or sex to activities. I'm not suggesting you're doing it negatively, but it would seem ironic if someone who wanted to do an activity which he might have suffered from the dumb schoolkid / teenage buffoonery of calling it "gay" might one day find the people that you would have thought abhorred that kind of prejudice questioning or discussing what his sexuality is for their own ends.

I know I haven't fully concurred with the people in other threads that have been discussing what we focus on when we're playing [or trying to] but it's certainly not whether you fancy girls or boys.

[superstition2]

Being black or gay is no more significant than being white and heterosexual.

To remove that prejudice of sexism you'd have to do nearly the opposite of what you seem to want to do which is to stop attributing sexuality or sex to activities.

One form of feminim is predicated on the belief that women and men are exactly the same. I consider that form of feminism to be illogical, just as I consider the "colorblind" rhetoric that's offered up often as the solution for racial prejudice to be illogical. Homosexuals are not heterosexuals. Blacks are not whites. Women are not men. Diversity does matter. Diversity is diversity, not monoculture. We are not an Earth populated by clones of a single individual.

Why is it appropriate to recognize so many nuances (diversity) when we're talking about things like piano technique, composition, or even when evaluating the physical beauty of people but it's not appropriate to acknowledge the diversity that having two sexual orientations entails?

There are four basic types of people, when we break people down according to sex and sexual orientation: Homosexual female. Heterosexual female. Homosexual male. Heterosexual male.

As I said, a person's sexuality can have a tremendous influence on their life and art, or it may have very little influence. The same thing is true of a persons race-ethnicity-culture, although physical features like skin color are much less important, when prejudice isn't a factor, than culture. Sexual orientation is a more important factor than skin color and other superficial physical attributes, although physical appearance is a critical factor in interpersonal situations, most of the time. Who we become as people is a combination of our DNA and socialization. A person's internal personality does not completely control how others perceive them or interact with them. Physical appearance matters a lot, too.

The thing I think you're veering toward is classic gay invisibility rhetoric. "Sexuality doesn't matter, so don't talk about it." Specifically: "homosexuality doesn't matter; I don't want to hear about it." There are many permutations of this rhetoric, like "you're obsessed".

There is a big difference between a relationship between two men and a relationship between a man and a woman. There is a big difference between a relationship between two women and a woman and a man. There is a big difference between being 5-10% of the population and being 90-95% of the population. There is something very different about living as a sexual minority.

Unlike literature, visual art, and other genres of art, music is usually less obviously influenced by a person's sexuality, although the influence can certainly be there, whether or not a listener sees it. And, please explain to me why it's wrong to think about how an opera with a gay protagonist written by a gay woman can be discussed regarding the writer's sexuality.

There has always been a form of homophobia that results in the push toward the censorship of homosexuality in artists. A prominent painter I've spoken with refuses to even consider that one of his idols, John Singer Sargent, could have been gay. I'm sure that, if he finally were to admit it, he'd say it's not important and shouldn't be talked about. Like Mapplethorpe, people would rather see the flowers and ignore the penises. Otherwise, the partriarchal social order could be upset.

https://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html

The centrality of the Strict Father model to conservative politics also explains the attitudes of conservatives to feminism, abortion, homosexuality, and gun control. In the Strict Father model of the family, the mother is subordinated to running the day-to-day affairs of the home and raising the children according to the father's direction. It is the father that bears the major responsibility and makes the major decisions. The Strict Father model is exactly the model that feminism is in the business of overthrowing. Hence, the appropriate antipathy of conservatives to feminism (although there is the recent phenomenon of conservative feminists, namely, women who function with the values of conservative men such as self-discipline, self-reliance, the pursuit of self-interest, etc.). The conservative opposition to homosexuality comes from the same source. Homosexuality in itself is inherently opposed to the Strict Father model of the family.

Yes, homosexuality is very important in my life. While it is more prominent because of the extreme level of social prejudice that exists, a person's sexual orientation is a critical part of their life, whether they realize it or not.

[leahcim]

Why is it appropriate to recognize so many nuances (diversity) when we're talking about things like piano technique, composition, or even when evaluating the physical beauty of people but it's not appropriate to acknowledge the diversity that having two sexual orientations entails?

You seem to be struggling to understand. I didn't say don't recognise or acknowledge the diversity. I didn't say that you shouldn't talk about them. I didn't say that the differences don't exist.

But I'm saying that the differences, like so many other differences, don't have relevance to the subjects to which you seem to be applying it to - especially, most especially, when you hope that if you have a characteristic it means something because someone else, in art or any other field does too. So sure, if a pianist was gay it might have affected his art [I said as much already although I didn't limit everything to a single characteristic], but it doesn't follow that it'll affect yours or anyone else who is gay in the same way or even at all.

Some art may have been influenced by the prejudices, pain, horror and misery that a person may have received in their life. Some people just fall off a ladder and go to hospital without making a song and a dance

Bottom line, you listed 4 types of sexuality, two of which are what being gay is - it isn't anything else. If someone describes themselves as gay that is what they mean - they don't mean they can play the piano or paint in a particular way.

You may disagree with that, but this idea you've formed where you seem to think I believe it shouldn't be discussed etc isn't disagreeing with what I said, it's misunderstanding it.

But TBH, from some of the paranoia you posted in an earlier message it doesn't surprise me. You seem to be looking for people to be homophobic and / or prejudiced and somehow, gay pianists are going to make everyone say "Oh yeah, gay people are useful after all" What a crock I know people who love the music of Jimi Hendrix and Bob Marley who are racist. So it seems a fallacy if only because it's an attempt to use logic and rationality to remove prejudice, but prejudice is anything but logical or rational.

Just look at the words for left-handed and the history. Being left-handed clearly affects art and many have suffered to a greater or lesser extent because of it. But not many get over excited at left-handedness these days. There are a few egos who make a fuss because they think the world has made baked beans difficult to access and they noticed,  that made them different.

Then. obviously, there are a few lists. The average list doesn't usually have "George Crinkerton - A thick #$#% who achieved nothing was left handed" as an entry. Why do you suppose that is? Using words like gauche and sinister and talking about things being "right", left-handers having to pretend or act right handed, worse, enduring years of being forced to write with the wrong hand by a misguided tutor. This is because society, dominated by right-handers is prejudiced. The solution isn't to just treat left-handed people as though they are left-handed but "who gives a monkeys?" No, that's not enough. That'd be like classic left-handed ignoring me rhetoric, and I like to give the vegetarians a run for their money when it comes to pointing out the hand I write with.

As for people killing babies with some "gay" gene or whatever - why? Where is the logic in that? Some might, of course, given the choice, but you could say the same about anything - brown eyes, big feet, hairy chests, males, females, dumb buffoons, apple mac users, left or right handedness or whatever else, what's so particular about your differences compared with others? We all have them.

[stevie]

of all composers, i really doubt alkan was gay.

[vladhorwz]

I saw Liberace in Las Vegas when I was a kid, just starting piano lessons, even then it made me NAUSEATED.  I think it was the beer barrell polka that did it.

I remember him saying or reading somehwere he didn't like classical music because it reminded him of "exercises", that the pieces were too simple and mechanical.  I guess from that "genre" Peter Nero......now that guy could/can play.