Is there a God?

[gruffalo]

i became a christian at the age of 15. i am 17 now. i was an ordinary teenager, and i still am. however my belief for the first year came from a friend of mine who was having religious experiences all the time. it took me about half a year before i started connecting properly with God, but all that time God was answering my prayers. i never read the Bible until recently where i find it very inspiring. basically my belief in God didnt come from any influence from Church. in fact, the catholic church makes it so boring its hard to believe that people do go there. i go to some evening masses on sunday night and we sing with guitars and stuff to make it better.

God wont come into your life unless you let him.

just try it, a little prayer.nothing big and dont be synical about it. if you want it to happen, post me before you do it and i will pray for you.

maybe something might not happen aswell. i also believe that everyone has a different point in their life where God will call them, so you might not be ready for it. but try it.

[leahcim]

just try it, a little prayer.nothing big and dont be synical about it. if you want it to happen, post me before you do it and i will pray for you.

Ok, let me know tomorrow if your hair has turned pink. I'll photograph the Steinway when Madonna brings it around.

[Perhaps others could pray for the same thing to add the extra oomph required to the experiment]

I'll sell the Steinway for charity afterwards, of course, in case some feel that God might have an issue giving grand pianos away.

So c'mon God, the children at GOSH are looking forward to your gift. AMEN.

[gruffalo]

its not about praying for something. i meant pray to see if you can experience God.

ok answer this. why would a 15 year old with now interests in being controlled by religion or Law randomnly become a Chrisitian? and no, its not all in my mind. im still the same person, the same character, i just try and be better towards people. God isnt just there to give you a pink steinway.

[gruffalo]

i apologize if my post sounded like praying for something. i meant pray to receive God. oh, and if your going to be synical about the prayer, leachim, it aint going to happen so dont come crying if it doesnt work. im not talking about praying for a present. im talking about praying for presence. big difference.

[pianistimo]

i like that, gruffalo!  praying for presence!  because we don't always get what we are praying for otherwise right away.  some prayers take years.  some are seconds or minutes.  and, i believe as you do that the 'true church' is a community of believers that actually encourage one another and pray for one another.  'where two or three are gathered together...' 

our church has an e-mail and daily scripture read program on e-mail, too.  i usually go on early in the morning and pray for those who ask for a specific prayer or to heal a sickness and read at the computer.  this seems really bizarre compared tot he way i used to pray and study years ago - but, it's easier sometimes and i still think God hears our prayers no matter where or what tech we are using.

i agree, too, that when you are younger - it's really impressive just to have one prayer answered.  then, you start seeing that God even cares about details you never even thought of - and does those too.  And, then there's times he 'chastises' us - and what we might think of as 'bad things' happen.  but, it's still for good.  He gives us patience and endurance that otherwise we wouldn't have.

there have been several times that i prayed for a critical answer. once i was on the freeway and my daughter (who had been sick and throwing up after visiting a friend in another town - threw up and passed out in the child seat).  i had to pull off at the nearest exit.  get out.  i bent her over my knees to clear her airway first.  she was limp as a rag doll.  that was probably more scary than me passing out (as long as i'd be able to pull over and stop).  i was so panicked, that after turning her over and raising her hands above her head up and down to get her to breath.  i started waving MY hands in the air and just praying to God - please please let someone stop - and also, let them know where in this strange area is a hospital.  well, this guy in a white truck stopped, got us in the truck quickly, and told me he was on his way to the hospital and assumed that's where i wanted to go.  he was going for chemotherapy, i found out!  also, my daughter recussitated in his car - but still needed the critical attention of the hospital.  i will never forget that day and how FASt the prayer was answered.  prayed also for the man - and thanked God for his mercy and to show it back to the man.

[pianistimo]

for more prayers from soldiers from WWII - right after the war had ended - the japanese still had a load of us prisoners (?trying to remember where they were located) and had them stripped, lined up, bent over and about to shoot each one who knows how many times.  several of the men had obviously prayed well, because before a shot was fired, the japanese admiral? commander? drove up, got out, and announced that the war was over and that according to the emperor they were to have clemency.  they all survived!

of course, in war, not everyone gets every prayer answered - but sometimes just being alive is an answer.  also, in survival stories, you hear sometimes that people defied the 'odds.'  what really happened is they had their prayers answered - or God intervened for them.

[zheer]

.  also, in survival stories, you hear sometimes that people defied the 'odds.'  what really happened is they had their prayers answered - or God intervened for them.

  possibly, i have personaly been runover by a car three times in my life, thank god i walked away without a scratch.

[rob47]

for more prayers from soldiers from WWII - right after the war had ended - the japanese still had a load of us prisoners (?trying to remember where they were located) and had them stripped, lined up, bent over and about to shoot each one who knows how many times.  several of the men had obviously prayed well, because before a shot was fired, the japanese admiral? commander? drove up, got out, and announced that the war was over and that according to the emperor they were to have clemency.  they all survived!

of course, in war, not everyone gets every prayer answered - but sometimes just being alive is an answer.  also, in survival stories, you hear sometimes that people defied the 'odds.'  what really happened is they had their prayers answered - or God intervened for them.

it's true the Japanese are not important to god, (they don't have souls), which is why he didn't intervene when the US decided to incinerate not one but two cities, killing almost entirely civilians and poisoning that same number of civilians over years to follow. I am happy those soldiers didn't have to die though. respect god

[gruffalo]

Pianistisimo you are obviously more experienced than me, but i am learning everyday. i liked that story. another thing that strengthened my faith was my best friends mum (the guy i learned about being a christian from), ive known him since we were 8 so we both trust eachother a lot.

well basically, his mum got seriously ill (the nurses said she had less than 1% chance of survival). she was a perfectly healthy person. but we all prayed everyday. lots of christians came and visited and prayed. all her organs (except her heart) were on life support, and within a week they came off. the doctors and nurses didnt know what had happened (except for one christian nurse) but it was a miracle. since then she is still in a wheel chair and has made half day visits home. also, she was unable to talk because she had blood clots in her intestine and her leg, and at the same time had a stroke. now that is some serious illness. a lot of people dont survive strokes on its own. so basically, on her birthday she told me that she asked God that the greatest present that she could have would be her voice back. and guess what? she spoke. tell me thats coincidence then eh?

[rob47]

nope that was god. but a different god then the one your thinking of.

it was Anansi the african spider god. by far my favourtie, with his cunning and trickery and stories. a really big heart underneath it all though.

[leahcim]

big difference.

There's a big similarity too. It doesn't work in either case

[pianistimo]

dear rob 47,

you'll notice i NEVER said the japanese people are any less important or did anything more wrong.  killing is killing.  and, having read about nagisaki and hiroshima through they eyes of people who were living there - and seeing pics - i'm sure many people would say -there must be another way!!!  but, AT THE TIME, it seemed that there was no other way.  when your country is attacked - most countries defend themselves. 

that's where God comes in.  i find the 'battle of armageddon' quite interesting because God says 'their eyes will rot in their sockets'  - i'm not wishing it - it's just that for people that want and declare war to be the best solution - they'll get what they wish on others.  yet, God declares his soverenty by protecting whomever he will.

to zheer - i'm really happy that God is showing his sovereignty in your life, too.  when people are young they tend to dismiss it, until it happens again and again - and you start thinking 'someone's looking out for me.  why?'  i have had at least three times in my life pretty much known that unless i had had supernatural help or protection - i would have been dead.  God can cause attackers to lose interest (i had a bad car chase after a late night trip to the grocery store, and i just decided to slow down, check for traffic, and run a four way stop to get away from them), or for you to 'feel those pin pricks on the back of your neck' when something isn't right,  or to check on a door that might be unlocked, etc. etc.

and, it's really great when you hear about people who are sick getting better so fast.  being on dialysis and stuff must be really depressing. doctor's don't always acknowledge God and sometimes learn just as much by patients they interact with.  if you outright say - wow, that looks so much better - i think my prayers have been answered!  i try to always thank them for their knowledge, too.  even though in my head - i know God has power over life and death and healing.  my leg could have been much

[leahcim]

well basically, his mum got seriously ill (the nurses said she had less than 1% chance of survival). she was a perfectly healthy person. but we all prayed everyday. lots of christians came and visited and prayed. all her organs (except her heart) were on life support, and within a week they came off. the doctors and nurses didnt know what had happened (except for one christian nurse) but it was a miracle. since then she is still in a wheel chair and has made half day visits home. also, she was unable to talk because she had blood clots in her intestine and her leg, and at the same time had a stroke. now that is some serious illness. a lot of people dont survive strokes on its own. so basically, on her birthday she told me that she asked God that the greatest present that she could have would be her voice back. and guess what? she spoke. tell me thats coincidence then eh?

In your last post I thought you said he didn't give presents?

With the greatest respect to your friend's mother, what you describe - someone being very ill in hospital and making a bit of a recovery but clearly still being very ill, is hardly a miracle cure.

Neither is it unusual for someone who is very ill or someone who has someone close to them very ill to find themselves looking for anything at all to help.

But rather than look at the hospital, the Doctors and Nurses who treated the lady with the respect and thanks they deserve. You prefer to proclaim them all clueless buffoons unaware of the real reason she's alive, which is attributed to some mystic magical power that the band of manipulative clowns taking advantage of your friend's distress supposedly used to cure her.

[Worse, there are some buffoons who'll go a stage further, and proclaim that you can sit at home believing that the hospital isn't necessary or demonstrate fake cures on American TV]

Of course when it comes to something _after_ the fact "it's a miracle cure".

When it comes to testing this alleged power then all the usual excuses are trotted out.

[Torp]

About 5 minutes ago I decided to pray so I would live forever...so far so good.

Here's a good test.  Stop eating or drinking or doing anything to sustain yourself and rely solely on your faith in god to provide.  Surely your faith in god is great enough that he will see this and provide for you.  I mean, you're willing to die for him.  If/when you die from starvation you'll be comforted in knowing either your faith was insufficient, your god was not omnipotent, or your god just didn't care.

[gruffalo]

well, as far as im concerned, i believe God is there 100%. now leachim, what you have to understand is that basically, after a long time of thinking "how can all this be possible, the earth, the universe, human biology without something behind it? (still not thinking there is a god)". so i sat down and i said "god, if you are there i want to know it". from there more things began to piece together in my faith.

now leachim, while i was saying those words, i meant it. i was not trying to prove a point to myself or to anyone. i even felt slightly daft doing it, but i did. so its never going to work with you if you think like that. as i said, God isnt just some belief, it is an experience. if i didnt have experiences i wouldnt be believing in God right now. why would i have? like i said before, i was just a 15 year old not really wanting any part in religion.

in reply to Torps suggestion, faith is not just some thing that you get and it stays there. it is continually growing. let me rule out that faith is a bit different to belief. my belief in God is 100%, but i wouldnt be prepared to do something like that for God. i have only been a real christian for two years and i dont know if my faith would lead me to do something like that (i believe everyone has different paths through God in life), but if that was my path right now quite franckly i wouldnt do it.

[paris]

Is there a God?

Yes

[lisztisforkids]

About 5 minutes ago I decided to pray so I would live forever...so far so good.

Here's a good test.  Stop eating or drinking or doing anything to sustain yourself and rely solely on your faith in god to provide.  Surely your faith in god is great enough that he will see this and provide for you.  I mean, you're willing to die for him.  If/when you die from starvation you'll be comforted in knowing either your faith was insufficient, your god was not omnipotent, or your god just didn't care.

Actually, there are many people that go months without food. But these are confined to REAL spirtual people, that meditate for very long periods of time. These people are almost completley confined to Tibet and India. God answers his most true worshipers. Not hypocrites. I dont think I have met one Chrisitian (or any other religon fo that matter, except Buddism) that dident have hypocrisy written all over thier face.

So you pray a few minuets every night and go to church on sunday. This means nothing. If people really lived the way Jesus wanted them to, the world would be a much better place. No bias, no rich and poor, no war, no discrimination. The Church should be ashamed of itself.
As Gandhi said "I like your Christ but not your Christians, your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

[semme]

someone described the possibility of evolution like that:

"An ape coming to a market place in bagdad writing goethe's faust on a type writer."

well, thats zero.

i believe there is a god.

[pianistimo]

agreed about thanking doctors and nurses for all they do.  but, imo, they cannot control what happens in your own body or the bodies of other patients.  some react well to certain treatment and others do not.  sometimes they basically go with the tried and tested methods, even though in a certain percentage of cases, that solution doesn't work.  that's where a person prays 'give my doctor the knowledge that he needs.  guide his hands to properly do this or that (for me, it was to set the bone - which was tricky because fragile bones can break in other places and i had some fractures on my tibea plateau as well as the tibea and fibula).  when you are actually in a situation it is much different that when you are just talking about it.  or, if it is your OWN mother - or your own relatives.  believe me, you DO start praying even if you are not religious. 

even for things that don't seem super critical - because other things can happen.  for instance, my husband had to go in for rotator cuff surgery quite a few years ago.  i wasn't half as concerned about the surgery as his going under anesthesia.  he's always had some breathing stuff going on - and was so i was pacing back and forth and praying - please don't let the nurses leave his breathing tube and monitor (as well as mentioning my concerns beforehand).

in terms of fasting proving who's christian, it doesn't.  if you survive a fast you are no less christian than a person who gorges themselves all year.  God approves of whomever He does and that is the ONLY determining factor.  He looks for people's willingness to obey his words and listen.  if he doesn't tell us to fast for days and days - why should we?  but, if he tells us to love our brothers/sisters - then that is way more important.  I think Christ gave us an example of fasting to show us humility. that HE, as God of the entire universe, would humble himself - to the point of testing in weakness - and prove Himself strong over evil (Satan).  Satan of course, went at him like a bat out of hell but did nothing to destroy Christ. 

The first thing satan said was 'if you throw yourself down...'  so you can see where suicidal tendencies come from.  then, 'i'll give you all these things that you see ...'  also, he wanted Christ to test the angels (to see if they'd catch him) - but in every response Christ used God's own word.  that is why it is so important to know.  it is our sword.  sounds funny to use words as swords - but, it's only after you experience the power of God's word that you begin to believe there's something to it. 

God's word comes as a gentle whisper in your concience (this is right, or this is the way).  He always give us a way to follow and doesn't leave us completely helpless in this life - unless we just insist on our own way.  sometimes it's advice He helps others tell us outright.  sometimes, it's just a nagging thought - that leads to follow a course that is different than others or that helps others.  and, the same will happen to others that are supposed to help you.  much different than the techniques the demons use. they are so full of confusion and fear and dread - that they are paralyzed by the words 'God rebuke you satan'  or, 'in Jesus Christ's Name i command you to leave.'  once i tried this where i was convinced a woman was really crazy - but i said the words in my head without speaking them outloud.  suddenly it was like she was a different person.  you can't explain this until you experience truly believing in God and his power.

[brewtality]

No, I don't believe in god, at least in the traditional sense. After having religion shoved down my throat in high school, I've had just about enough of it.

[leahcim]

what you have to understand is that basically, after a long time of thinking "how can all this be possible, the earth, the universe, human biology without something behind it? (still not thinking there is a god)". so i sat down and i said "god, if you are there i want to know it". from there more things began to piece together in my faith.

You also clearly believe and have told me a couple of times that if you are cynical and don't believe in God then prayer won't do anything. If what you say now is true you must have believed in God in the first place. At which point shouting "YAGGOT PRINGLE SPIZZCOT" or throwing your piano out of the window would have no doubt meant you continued to believe in him in the same way that you say praying didn't change anything.

Once someone believes something it's not unusual for them to twist everything to fit, especially if they are surrounded by people who are willing to perpetuate the myth and accept their explanation for what happened or have made no attempt to look for another explanation.

Kids who believe in Santa accept the most ridiculous story, and ignore blindingly obvious evidence that their parents are going to the shop, buying presents and wrapping paper and putting them under a tree. Similarly they attribute the most mundane and everyday occurances to "Santa" on Christmas day. My son once said "I know Santa had been because my bedroom door was open and I closed it when I went to bed" - My so looks at me at this point because she can see the look on my face because I should say "FFS, it's a door, anyone can open a door", but, no, so long as the people around him continue to perpetuate the myth or sit their silently rolling their eyes until the other adults grow out of it, he'll accept crap like "Oh yeah, look he's eaten your mince pie, and the carrot's disappeared. Rudolf must have enjoyed that" then they will believe, and everything will "fit".

Another example, today people will die, have accidents, lose their jobs, get served with court papers, fail exams and so on, the same as every other day. Except for those who want today's date to be unlucky. For them, every negative event that happens will be explained by the date or, more accurately, their belief that today's date is unlucky will be perpetuated by whatever things happen. [You can also bet they'll explain that it doesn't matter how cynical you are in this case, you can't stop the bad luck by not believing in it.]

So cynics might have a piano fall on their head, but there's no chance of any "good magic" happening because they don't believe it 

e.g When the doctor / nurse or whoever said "1% chance of survival" what did you believe that meant? I mean that in terms of comparative stats, how you believe they calculated the figure, how accurate you think it was?

[gruffalo]

well, funnily enough leachim i didnt become a christian through the influence of other preachers or whatever. i didnt go to church. all i can tell you is that my belief is purely from feelings, not from words of other people. i cant deny what i have felt through God. thats all i have to say. pianistisimo can answer more on Bible and historical stuff, but i can only answer what i have felt. you still refuse to answer my questions from before leachim.

[leahcim]

well, funnily enough leachim i didnt become a christian through the influence of other preachers or whatever. i didnt go to church.

How did you know that the Catholic church was boring?

you still refuse to answer my questions from before leachim.

What questions? If you mean this :-

why would a 15 year old with now interests in being controlled by religion or Law randomnly become a Chrisitian?

Firstly, I think the way you asked those questions, as though the fact that you believe should be unusual, astounding or any kind of proof that there's something in it, would just lead to an ad hominen answer that I don't want to give. There are plenty of people that believe in numerous different religions and gods, reincarnation, UFOs, magnets that heal cancer, the tooth fairy, santa claus and that Milton Keynes is a good place to live. That isn't a reason for anyone to believe.

I'll just say that, from your posts, I'm not at all surprised that you believe anything.

Saying "Such and such a person believes despite the fact they are 15 or don't want to believe or clever or whatever else, therefore there must be something in it" in general isn't a valid or good argument irrespective of who you decide to use as the subject or what criteria they have that makes their faith supposedly unusual.

I think it self-evident that you didn't randomly become one and that you've had plenty of access to the Christian / God myth. You haven't randomly invented the same thing in isolation. You've spoken of many Christians involved in the "miracle", and of speaking to your friend, who may not be a preacher, but nevertheless will have had some of the same access to information about the myth as you and everyone else.

I wouldn't bother going to the patent or (c) offices with your new invention, put it that way

[gruffalo]

all, im saying is that through God i have had experiences. if i didnt, there was no way i would be following God right now. before i became a Christian, i was always questioning everything (and i still do). my belief is purely based on my own experiences. i was the kind of person that sort of needed proof but at the same time i wasnt synical about it. i had appreciation for the Law, but i used to smoke dope and had no interests in following religion.

[leahcim]

agreed about thanking doctors and nurses for all they do.

It's not thanking them personally so much. It's reporting what they know, didn't know, achieved and didn't achieve to others.

The people attributed as saving this woman's life were a group of people that prayed.

They may proclaim their power is from God, they might hedge that whether it works is up to God, they might not send a bill, but nevertheless the credit was given to a bunch of people who, mostly because they know they couldn't do anything, entertained themselves with the idea that they could and then were given the credit.

The people that actually were doing something, at best, get "well I can pray and make my Doctor competent" concept.

but, imo, they cannot control what happens in your own body or the bodies of other patients.  some react well to certain treatment and others do not.

Absolutely. The biggest problem with the "miracle" is, it ignores all the medical treatment being administered, and dismisses the Doctors and Nurses knowledge, ability and actions.

Yet it takes one statistic from them, about the survival chances of the patient without question.

when you are actually in a situation it is much different that when you are just talking about it.  or, if it is your OWN mother - or your own relatives.  believe me, you DO start praying even if you are not religious. 

Absolutely a good point. However, it does not work if you do it or not.

But, remember, the premise was also given that if you don't believe it won't work. You seem to believe slightly differently. That whether God decides to do something is down to his own arbitrary decision. Since God is omnipresent and supposedly knows everything it would seem daft praying in your case since he's clearly already aware and will decide for himself whether he does anything anyway.

But, for this so-called "never went to church and to be honest I don't know anything about it at all" religious philosophy it appears slightly different.

If I pray and my mother dies then that's because I didn't believe or because God decided to say "No" to my mother. Because "prayer works whatever I or anyone else says differently otherwise 15 yo's wouldn't believe in would they, eh?"

I'm all for impressionable people asking questions and whose mothers or friend's mothers survive after prayer deluding themselves into believing it was God. Fine, no harm done.

I'd be more worried about the other side of the coin though. Those talked into believing that God exists at a similar vulnerable time, as you note above that they often do, whose relatives don't survive.

[Torp]

At 15 after having been brought up in a religious household, i.e. church every sunday and a father who eventually became a minister, I randomly woke up one day and came to the conclusion it was all a bunch of BS.  Therefore, there is no god.

My sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer at the the age of 26.  Everyone prayed fervently to their catholic god.  She was dead by the time she was 28.  Therefore, again, no god.  Unless of course he just decide to be a jerk and kill her anyway.

If there is a god, it is ruthless and petty.

[pianistimo]

sorry to hear that your sister died so young!  and, i understand how difficult it is when people preach things and you don't have your hopes realized in this life.  but, you can take heart that there are a lot of people in your position - so God isn't singling your family out in the scheme of things.

i just heard that a friend of mine's little five year old was just killed in a sledding accident.  he begged his dad for one more ride down this road that was an access road up to a sort of skiing hill.  i don't know the details, other than his dad said 'ok, one last ride'- and probably 'be careful.'   he usually sledded with his 8 year old bro, but went ahead of him the last time and as he came down a truck was coming up.  the truck pulled over and fully stopped on the right side - but the boy couldn't stop and hit him full force.  his dad was miles from the paramedics and couldn't reach them fast enough on the cell phone - so just tried to get him into his vehicle (probably using sled as stretcher) and drive him - but the boy died on the way.

i felt so bad.  sometimes things happen that we just don't 'plan' on.  but, even 'spiritual people' such as abraham were tested.  especially with their own flesh and blood.  granted God didn't take abraham's son - but he wanted to know if abraham would put his son first or God first.  job lost his whole family - birthday party - and he was pretty dumped too.  his wife told him 'curse God and die' - but, he changed his attitude when she said that - and responded in faith by saying something like - 'God gives life - and can also take it away.' 

we have no control over when we are born or when we die - so since we don't have this control - we can 'let go' and 'let be.'  whatever is God's will is done anyway.  but, time and chance are not against us really.  God can ressurrect people - so that if they die - they can again be alive. 

[donjuan]

My sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer at the the age of 26.  Everyone prayed fervently to their catholic god.  She was dead by the time she was 28.  Therefore, again, no god.  Unless of course he just decide to be a jerk and kill her anyway.

Good Point.
It's like how all the families of the 13 miners congregated at that church and prayed all night.  God certainly didnt help out those trapped miners, now did he??

Of course, if you ask the families, Im sure they would say some B.S. involving sacrificing and God was testing their faith and blah blah blah.. Of course, they just do this to make up arbitrary reasons to rationalize the event and console themselves for their loss. 

[pianistimo]

there's no promise in the bible that we will never die - or always know the moment or type of death.  but, there's a certainty that death comes to all.  no difference between dying in mine or dying in car accident.  some deaths are faster - some are slower, but in the end - you're dead.  if you want to be mad at someone - be mad a satan - the deciever.  if it wasn't for him - death and sin wouldn't have come into the world.  he's the one that whispered 'go ahead, eat it.'

even now, subliminally we get all types of messages from many places.  if you are alert - you process them out.  don't you think the media has something to do with putting down christians - when they didn't check all the facts and wait until sufficient evidence was given that the miners were alive?  i don't know all the details myself - but, to say that people are alive is giving false hope.

the reality of many 'accident' situations - is just that.  probably an accident waiting to happen in terms of mining.  miners expect accidents - just as electricians, etc. etc.  the fact that their families prayed for them - was because they didn't know if they were dead or not.  to pray for someone before they are dead is useful.  to pray after they are dead (unless God chooses to revive someone) is somewhat pointless.  miracles do happen - but according to God's timing.  perhaps we are closer to the 'end times' because so many tragedies are inexplicably taking both christians and unbelievers.   and, so - if we die - we are actually safer than being here.  God is fully in control and if we live or die for Him, dying is a moot point.

[Torp]

Sounds to me then that prayer is totally pointless.  The outcome is predetermined anyway, right?

[pianistimo]

i don't know the answer to predistination.  i once asked a preacher myself.  i was about 18 and wanted to know, too.  but, then in sermons later on - it seemed to me that he was preaching about 'doing the will of God' no matter how hard it is.  for instance, you see many places in the bible that christians have a harder 'lot' sometimes - but their prayers are answered quickly in the 'big stuff.'  big stuff not having to do with their own lives as much as the lives of others they are affecting.  Christ died so all could live. 

this is totally different than living for the moment.  if we took everything in our lives as random, we may as well believe evolution.  but, if we believe there is a purpose in our lives being worked out here below - then, we probably believe a God put it all together and made it organized so that we can function better and look around at his creation and marvel at the details.  if he can make the flowers so beautiful - then we must be a million times more important and beautiful to him.

[leahcim]

if he can make the flowers so beautiful - then we must be a million times more important and beautiful to him.

https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/24/1048354544138.html?from=storyrhs
My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'

[pianistimo]

i don't understand the order of the universe and i don't even know much about river blindness although it affects much of the population of africa as i read in this article:

www.uniteforsight.org/course/riverblindness.php

apparrently this fly bites a person, infects it with larvae, and it travels to the eyes and causes blindness.  it can be treated with a drug.  but, making drugs available and spraying pesticides is probably - as the article said - about the best that can be done.  there are many inhumane living conditions in africa - and it is the duty of all people whether christian or not to take care of their brothers/sisters.  and, many do.  many doctors go and give comfort - but it is never enough.

i think God has to return SOOn to show himself merciful.  we have had 6,000 or + years to do it our way and it has resulted in the curses and not blessings that God had in mind.  the curses from doing things our own ways.

parasites are usually taken from animals via birds.  but, if people have to live out in the open - i am sure it is not pleasant to be covered with parasites.  the living conditions must be terrible for that to be occurring.  and, yes, no child should have to live with this (let alone adults).  i pray for God's kingdom to come soon.  that is the only way that all these problems will leave.  we will finally see what it is that is causing (the root ) the problem. 

many in african cultures believe in voodoo and witchcraft.  of course, not all. and not everyone subscribes to walking around with little to nothing on and performing sexual types of dances in public.  of course, we do that too, here in america so there's really no dif.  so i dont' get everyone angry - i'll just say - i'm not God and don't try to be God or tell people what to do or believe.  BUT, if they ask me...i just say - i think there's another way than what all the nations are doing right now.  everyone is sinning.  and, everyone is being cursed.

[donjuan]

i pray for God's kingdom to come soon.  that is the only way that all these problems will leave.  we will finally see what it is that is causing (the root ) the problem. 

sooo.... god created these worms, but now you want him to come and get rid of them?

i think God has to return SOOn to show himself merciful.  we have had 6,000 or + years to do it our way and it has resulted in the curses and not blessings that God had in mind.  the curses from doing things our own ways.

What other way can we possibly do anything other than "our way?"

I dont understand your perspective.  Leahcim brought this eye-worm thing to the table, and instead of saying anything to rebut the statement, you write a research paper on the worms. You then pretty much say 'now don't you worry... God's out for lunch, but he'll be  back real soon, and when he gets here, he'll show them Africans how they shouldn't live in Africa'

[pianistimo]

we created the problems by sinning against God.  if he says 'don't do such and such'...and we do it - it's like parenting.  if you don't follow through - no one believes that what you say is true.  God has to follow his own word through to the end.  and i believe we are getting close to the end.

[donjuan]

parasites are usually taken from animals via birds.  but, if people have to live out in the open - i am sure it is not pleasant to be covered with parasites.  the living conditions must be terrible for that to be occurring.  and, yes, no child should have to live with this (let alone adults).  i pray for God's kingdom to come soon.  that is the only way that all these problems will leave.

we created the problems by sinning against God. 

Come on!!! Use common sense! The parasites would exist with or without voodoo, witchcraft, or skimpy clothing.  The events are completely independent of one another.  And why would God send these pests to attack animals?  Are they sinners too?  Oh yes, that's right - in terms of clothing they have "little to nothing on"

By the way, what do you mean when you say "God's kingdom will come soon"?  What do you think will happen?  How will we know when he gets here?  Since you described other cultures as being sinners (african voodoo etc), I suppose you think God's Kingdom will only have blue eyed, white skinned people who wear long grey robes and sit in Church all day? 

not everyone subscribes to walking around with little to nothing on

Yes, you are right.  But if God hates public indecency so much, then why didn't he make some clothes for Adam and Eve instead of making them go with only the stupid leaf covering their heehee's and haha's?

God has to follow his own word through to the end.  and i believe we are getting close to the end.

ok, so what's going to happen?

[pianistimo]

i think what's going to happen is a right kind of government on this earth where everyone is taken care of - and no rich/poor scheme.  the bible has plenty to say about how God views things - but, it's hard for the human mind to fathom his love right now - because we see humans being so cruel to one another. it seems more like a 'dog eat dog' world.  also, our system is changing rapidly, so what we think we posess - may in actuality belong to someone else. 

as for right now - i think huge efforts need to be taken to get together as communities and clear the debris and all from the cities that were hit by katrina. 

[zheer]

. it seems more like a 'dog eat dog' world. 

  It is for most but not for all people.   Man i have'nt heard that expression for a long time.

[pianistimo]

suppose it is outdated.  it just came to mind as a way to express dishonesty, corruption, waste, all those things that aren't supposed to be happening and if they didn't happen - peope would be realizing more blessings from working. 

[udarnick]

    That's a nice question, but I have a better one: has God created man, or man has created God?? 

[timothy42b]

we created the problems by sinning against God.  if he says 'don't do such and such'...and we do it - it's like parenting.  if you don't follow through - no one believes that what you say is true.  God has to follow his own word through to the end.  and i believe we are getting close to the end.

No, this doesn't make any sense at all.  It deserves another look and a little amplification.

In the simplistic view of the fundamentalists, the world was perfect before sin, and all creatures and natural features were created exactly as they exist today, with no evolution to help out.  But that means the parasitic worms existed too - what did they eat before they were allowed any eyeballs to snack on? 

Then sin came, and death and misery were the consequence.  Well, why should man's sin cause animals to die?  And if it did, why should not Jesus's sacrifice and victory over death cause animals to stop dying?  I think it is quite evident the understanding of sin as cause of death is false.  Possibly it could apply to spiritual death - but the attack of a river worm is anything but spiritual.  Remember too that the modern concept of a man doomed by his sin nature DID NOT EXIST in Old Testament times.  God's message was that if you believed in One God and followed the dietary and sacrifice rules you would be saved.  The idea we needed a Savior did not get invented until after we'd had one. 

No, I think we can conclude the existence of the river worm is pretty good evidence the whole fundamentalistic understanding of what Genesis meant is radically wrong.  Blatantly and obviously wrong.  And part of what that means is that we start paying attention to the fossil and DNA evidence God left for us, instead of putting fingers in our ears and singing la-la.  The Old Testament CANNOT be understood literally and inerrantly without losing the message. 

[rob47]

god = beyond human comprehension

I suppose this is why I don't understand you pro-god mofos. I am catholic but that does not stop me from using pages from the bible in the washroom if I'm out of toilet paper.

[leahcim]

I am catholic but that does not stop me from using pages from the bible in the washroom if I'm out of toilet paper.

If it was written in a language you understand, the Pope'll probably send you a medal.

[rob47]

If it was written in a language you understand, the Pope'll probably send you a medal.

Sorry I can't quite understand the meaning hear; the pope is a great guy for sure.

[leahcim]

Sorry I can't quite understand the meaning hear

Yes, exactly that.

All the "I can beat you at dominos" stuff they prefer because you couldn't quite understand it...

[rob47]

haha please forgive my ignorance..i still don't understand.

who is 'they'?

And yes i can probably beat you at dominoes.

[leahcim]

who is 'they'?

Sancta Sedes.

And yes i can probably beat you at dominoes.

Trying singing it as you might sing "Pies lesu domine, donna eis requiem"

[rob47]

respect

[pianistimo]

well, i think i shall try a little of ted's logic.  what do dominos have to do with domine and God?  and, what do riverworms have to do with life before and after sin?  the evidence is clear.  we have none.  we cannot verify anything(as in millions of years).  how do you know fossils are as old as some proclaim them to be?  because someone set a certain age for them with carbon dating.  how do we know carbon dating is accurate?  i think usc was looking into how temperature affects carbon-14 decay rates.  have to read more about it, but if it was affected by temperature, then the periods when the earth has undergone climate change might have affected the dating. also, here is an article on  some things that can go wrong with carbon-14 dating.  www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat3.htm 

also, how do we know that DNA won't prove the opposite of what darwin claimed!  perhaps having so many similarities in DNA to the point of proving so- called criminals on death row (or dead) innocent - we are coming closer to knowing the TRUTH about a lot of things that simply were not before.

i don't think riverworms were created to plague people particularly.  perhaps their original function was to be a scavenger of dead animals.  God has a system.  it's just not working at it's prime right now.  and, yes, i believe that sin and death go together.  why else would Christ die for us?  He wouldn't have needed to.  it would be pointless to free us from sin and death.  but, if he hadn't created a punishment for sin - we would be free to sin without consequence. 

[maul]

Haha I can't help but laugh at these comments.