Is there a God?

[rc]

I would so laugh if SCIENCE (of all subjects) proved (conclusively) that God didn't exist - I think that would be bloody hilarious.

What if science discovered God... Just hanging out on the moon, or an island somewhere having a little nap. They would check out his drivers license, take a fingerprint and confirm that it is God. We found him!

Or maybe the episode of Futurama where Bender finds God, some sort of computer program of flashing stars, playing dumb.

[rob47]

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/

[timothy42b]

if they had taken from the tree of life, there would be no opposite of life.  it would simply be life. 

They screwed up and got the order wrong.  They ate from the tree of knowledge.  Then they were going for the tree of life, which would have made them immortal, and the bouncer, er, angel kicked them out of the garden at swordpoint. 

The fact that the tree of life would have made them immortal proves they were mortal before.  Which proves that death existed before sin, which proves that the lion was NOT vegetarian. 

I do believe in God, I just think it is very unlikely our guesses about His/Her/Its nature are even close. 

[Siberian Husky]

yes there is an Allah..or is he God?..or is he a she?..or is he an it?..or is he more than one?..monotheisic?......


 

[donjuan]

I would so laugh if SCIENCE (of all subjects) proved (conclusively) that God didn't exist - I think that would be bloody hilarious.

haha remeinds me of that Simpsons episode when Homer had the crayon removed from his brain.  He proves there is no god and goes placing copies of his proof on car windshields! 

There is a god only if you believe there is a god.  A human invention of the mind, really.  The imagination is truly master of the senses.  You are your own god. QED

[pianistimo]

why would humans invent something out of the space-time continuum, since that is all we know.  i say that we invents gods of our own usually out of physically seen materials or nature.  but, to say that a human invented the idea of God?  i don't think it possible.  He says He is from everlasting to everlasting.  who would think of that, let alone begin to worship without wondering how this could be.  the alpha and omega (beginning and end) yet He has no end.  He must be the beginning and end of what we see now - and there's even more to come, according to the bible.   

[timothy42b]

But pianistimo, all or almost all human conceptions of God are simply that of a slightly more powerful human. 

We've all known someone smarter or stronger or kinder than we are, so there is no mystery at all about ascribing those properties to a nonhuman.  Most conceptions of God also give him some of the more negative human characteristics, too, such as a bad temper, need for revenge and punishment, desire for human women, etc.  (some of these vary from religion to religion) 

You're back to "if I can imagine it it must be real," and "if I can't figure it out it must be God."  Not good enough answers for the true seeker. 

[pianistimo]

if one is seeking God, they read the bible.  then, they see the difference between a prophet of God and a prophet of Baal.  the false prophets can't perform miracles in a genuine fashion - not to say that we only believe by miracles - but, we do often increase our faith (why else would Christ have performed them - such as turning water into wine).  i say that even God knows we look to physical things to increase our faith - because we can't comprehend what is spiritual without the Holy Spirit.  the Holy Spirit is said to 'guide us.'  if it is a guide - then we should seek it through baptism and the laying on of hands to receive this great gift.  it is only through the Holy Spirit that we are able to comprehend anything past the physical.  i'm not saying i have great faith - but just a little means that we do what the bible says without question.  just as abraham trusted God with his son.  after all, He gave us everything, so He can take anything away at any moment.  but, with those that trust Him, he always gives back double (or more).  he tests us and our spirits.  unlike satan, who has no real motive or reason beyond trying to discourage us and demotivate us (as he did with Job).  if we keep up a prayer life - we will find God very fast (with or without the spirit) - but we should ASK so we can receive.  you can ASK for God to send his Holy Spirit on you (even without a formal baptism) because God can do all things for those that look to His strength and not their own.

[chopiabin]

Apparently 55.5% of the people who responded to the poll are going to hell. See ya there!!

[riddlereader]

Is there a God?

Sometimes, really, when I am listening to Beethoven or Stravinsky, I do have a feeling that there is a higher meaning, a higher order, something beyond and above.

But then when the music stops, I get over it.

Ed

[chopiabin]

 

[ahmedito]

This topic has been rehashed dozens of times. Seriously people, if you have religious doubts and want to debate about it, go read one of the old topics and get it out of your system. This gets annoying.

[rc]

This topic has been rehashed dozens of times. Seriously people, if you have religious doubts and want to debate about it, go read one of the old topics and get it out of your system. This gets annoying.

Chill. The title's obvious, you don't have to read it again.

What's annoying is referring to old topics, because everything has been said and done already. I can understand when Bernhard refers to one of his well thought posts in the past, to help someone with a problem for example... But this is a harmless (probably pointless )debate that will always be springing up anew. Not everyone was around at the dawn of time for the first religious debate.

[donjuan]

Chill. The title's obvious, you don't have to read it again.

What's annoying is referring to old topics, because everything has been said and done already. I can understand when Bernhard refers to one of his well thought posts in the past, to help someone with a problem for example... But this is a harmless (probably pointless )debate that will always be springing up anew. Not everyone was around at the dawn of time for the first religious debate.

I agree 100% on that one.  The debate is ultimately pointless because no one (especially the religious ones) can possibly look at this concept of "god" from another perspective.  Also, there is really no point for them to do so.  They are happy, I am happy, GREAT!  Lets move on and talk about music!
Ahmedito, I think the reason why you find this annoying is because you are religious and therefore can't stand thinking about the possibility of being wrong.  Sorry for the stereotype, but I really have yet to meet a religious person who doesnt get all offended when people dont agree with them.

[chopiabin]

I agree with you donjuan, but I also understand Ahmedito's frustration - I've posted so many long and complicated posts on religion and philosophy, and every time a new religion thread comes up, nearly the exact same topics are covered. What I did during this thread was just go back through the old ones and copy, paste, edit, and expand my previous posts.

[leahcim]

I've posted so many long and complicated posts on religion and philosophy, and every time a new religion thread comes up, nearly the exact same topics are covered.

These pesky people are talking about religion in these religious threads?

It's a kind of quandry though, since I'd expect a group of atheists to talk about anything else  other than something that they clearly believe isn't true. Yet you find most atheist sites and religious sites on the web talk about nothing else.

It's similar to the skeptic with a k sites and all the medical junk and psychic stuff - they need each other and the former spend copious amounts of time and effort not believing in it [often citing the scientific method to justify why they can't just say "Look it's a load of rubbish, let's go home" like the rest of us ]

[chopiabin]

Well, I hate what I percieve as ignorance and the blind acceptance of religion. Christianity is not something that I am indifferent to, it is something that I actually despise. I believe it has held man back and taught not to trust his instincts - I personally see that as something bad for humanity. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean that I am not interested in the evolution of religion and morality. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

[leahcim]

Well, I hate what I percieve as ignorance and the blind acceptance of religion. Christianity is not something that I am indifferent to, it is something that I actually despise. I believe it has held man back and taught not to trust his instincts - I personally see that as something bad for humanity. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean that I am not interested in the evolution of religion and morality. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Haha, calm down, I don't "have a problem" with it. I've posted to some of the religious threads in here

I don't understand your pov though - a moment ago you didn't seem to like the threads because they discussed the topic. Now you're venting spleen because I laughed at the atheist sites for discussing it.

If you don't believe in Christianity and you don't believe in God what exactly do you need to debate? e.g If I don't believe in Santa Claus, there's not much point worrying about whether the names of the reindeer are historically accurate or not. What bits of truth or otherwise are you looking for that "Load of rubbish" doesn't cover w.r.t this subject? [That's not to say it's an argument you should accept for deciding one way or the other, but that's agnostic not atheist - we've already decided haven't we?]

In other words, I can't see what you see as missing from the debate if you are an atheist.

[chopiabin]

I honestly can barely understand the meaning of your posts.

Earlier in the thread I was simply saying that I understood Ahmedito's frustration with threads that seem to be repeats of earlier ones - I never said I shared that frustration, and in fact, I tried to provide a solution to his frustration by sharing what I do when I do not feel like writing a 5 page post that says many of the same things as previous posts of mine - I simply copy, paste, and expand if necessary.

The title of this thread is "Is there a God?," and I expressed my belief and explained it.If you are asking why I, as an atheist, care about the debate over the existence of god, it is because I am an atheist-humanist and I see the moral asceticism of Christianity as something outdated, irrelevant, and, at this point in history, something that is keeping man from reaching his as of yet unknown potential. 

Your analogy comparing the debate over the existence of god to "worrying about whether the names of Santa's reideer are historically accurate" implies that I have been somehow debating the contradictions present in the bible, when the more appropriate and accurate analogy would be to compare the debate over the existence of god with a debate over the existence of Santa. I clearly do not believe in the existence of Santa, but if I found a group of adults trying to be "good" in order to get presents, I would present arguments against the existence of Santa in order to liberate them from their ignorance. (By the way, in the sentence above, you can replace the word "Santa" with "god" and the word "presents" with "eternal happiness" and you will see what I am attempting to do).

"What bits of truth or otherwise are you looking for that "Load of rubbish" doesn't cover w.r.t this subject? [That's not to say it's an argument you should accept for deciding one way or the other, but that's agnostic not atheist - we've already decided haven't we?]" - leahcim

I have no idea what the above quote from means. It is completely unclear to me what you mean and if you would care to explain it I would gladly respond.

Oh, and I don't remember feeling that anything was missing from the debate.



 

[ahmedito]

Its not a question of what I believe in or not believe in. Its a question of being annoyed at the waste of time of pointless arguing. There are plenty of sites dedicated to this topic, why not go there. Or as Chopiabin says several times, why do it again if basically youre just going to copy and paste from previous threads, whats the point?

It seems you just want to argue for the sake of arguing instead of arguing because you want to learn something.

[leahcim]

Its not a question of what I believe in or not believe in. Its a question of being annoyed at the waste of time of pointless arguing. There are plenty of sites dedicated to this topic, why not go there. Or as Chopiabin says several times, why do it again if basically youre just going to copy and paste from previous threads, whats the point?

Exactly, that is what he said, I don't disagree with it either - see my reply. I said it seemed pointless to me that so many atheist sites talk about religion especially in light of the fact that they don't believe any of it.

Which point of agreeing with you that it's pointless do you see as arguing?

[Although if anything is more pointless than a stack of unsharpened pencils in a bucket of jelly it's trying to stop a topic being discussed - but I wouldn't fret, the reason there is more than one thread is because they die, not because they don't]

His following posts seem to have negated that pov though with various comments justifying the debate and his interest in it.

It seems you just want to argue for the sake of arguing instead of arguing because you want to learn something.

We don't learn much from debating do we? Except perhaps about the people involved.  It's usually 2+ established pov and analogies about cars...actually you don't get many car analogies in piano afaict. Read a forum about operating systems and they are like cars in various ways.

You learn from this site [or at least I do] by reading, not posting, and more from the threads where people agree or it's just "There are 4 basic movements blah blah blah one, do a jump to the left..."

[leahcim]

Your analogy comparing the debate over the existence of god to "worrying about whether the names of Santa's reideer are historically accurate" implies that I have been somehow debating the contradictions present in the bible

Not that you have, but because you said you didn't see the point in religious threads that go over the same ground again and again. I wondered what ground exactly you think something that is completely baloney can go over instead of the same thing?

If your answer is "nothing, I said a bit earlier the threads are pointless" - then so did I in the reply - at which point you started telling me that you have an interest in the threads and you were sorry if I had a problem with that. It seems a bit of a reversal, from saying it's pointless to arguing for the merits of discussing the topic.

If there's any fact in religion from an atheist viewpoint I can only see it being w.r.t historical content, so I wondered if that was what interested you in the subject.

I have no idea what the above quote from means. It is completely unclear to me what you mean and if you would care to explain it I would gladly respond.

Hopefully the above has clarified it but you then say "Oh, and I don't remember feeling that anything was missing from the debate" yet you said earlier "every time a new religion thread comes up, nearly the exact same topics are covered"

To me  the 2nd quote is either the most obvious empty statement in the world, or, by assuming you had a point implied, I assumed that you meant that the religious thread could /should be discussing different  things each time. Evidently from what you've said, it was just an empty obvious statement that religious threads discuss religion. Fair enough

[rohansahai]

why would humans invent something out of the space-time continuum, since that is all we know.  i say that we invents gods of our own usually out of physically seen materials or nature.  but, to say that a human invented the idea of God? ...

Its very simple ...the earliest conception of God was to worship (i.e.  submit to ..) whatever forces of nature man was either afraid of ..or could not explain. Hence, rain god, sun-god ...worship of snakes etc . came into being. As time passed and the explanation for each one of these forces was known ...these so called 'gods' started losing their prominence. Anyway, it all goes down to the basic philosophy of idealism and materialism, in which i think the latter has a stronger case.

[pianistimo]

i prefer idealism, if that's what you call it.  right now, i believe our nations are under a curse.  the usa in particular.  there has been more extreme weather in north dakota and montana (with 24 inch piled wet snow that has downed power lines and stranded people in blizzard conditions at night - with unmovable snow piles).  all this seems torturous.

but, look what we've done to others.  tortured.  this is not biblical to torture enemies.  in fact, God says to 'love your enemies and do good to them.'  we have to write president Bush and tell him that some of his decisions are not actually Godly.  he must be willing to listen to the american people who express sincere views that may not represent his own.  not being willing to listen is putting our whole nation at risk of having enemies that could turn and be our friends.  as well as - the idea that democracy stands for avoiding the geneva conventions?  it doesn't make sense.

maybe i don't understand war conditions - but i do understand what Joe Navarro said (former CIA guy) about torture not working.  he said John McCain's arm was dislocated in vietnam and it didn't make him want to tell any of the names of his friends.  it made him more resolute not to.  basically torture brings hatred.

watched one show last night about a guy who was doing the opposite.  after his tour in iraq - and noticing all the children in poverty (some who's parents were gone) he decided to return and make things as good as he could as a usa civilian.  he's a hero, imo, because he's making a wrong - right.  he's trying to help impoverished children survive and have some kind of hope or future.  i think his name was jonathan powell. 

God has a way of making the score even.  we are experiencing his wrath, too.  i think our country should pray, fast, and repent of sins that we have done to ourselves, each other, and other countries.  that we return to God so that he will return to us.  hindsight is not always great - but at least we can say that we learn from war that civilians do get hurt and that this war has lasted longer and affected more people than we wanted to to get rid of saddam.  they are definately set back in terms of weapons for 10-20 years - but we have to show them a better way - and pray for guidance in how to turn around their country for the better.  only God has true peace - and maybe this is just leading to what people call 'armaggedon.'  there are so many people homeless, out in the cold, and sufferring - i can't imagine God would delay his coming.  He must return to show himself merciful. 

what i don't understand is why all the armies that are gathered will fight against Him (our God) at his return.  you would think that it would be a pleasant sight to have relief from all these 'birth pains' that result in his second coming.  how much worse can birth pains get than what we have now?  yet we know that it will be called times of 'tribulation' and 'he that endures to the end will be saved.'  now is the time to draw close to God and He will draw close to you.  and, to do right - even when other people are doing wrong.

[leahcim]

i prefer idealism, if that's what you call it.  right now, i believe our nations are under a curse.  the usa in particular.  there has been more extreme weather in north dakota and montana (with 24 inch piled wet snow that has downed power lines and stranded people in blizzard conditions at night - with unmovable snow piles).  all this seems torturous.

but i do understand what Joe Navarro said (former CIA guy) about torture not working.  he said John McCain's arm was dislocated in vietnam and it didn't make him want to tell any of the names of his friends.  it made him more resolute not to.

If you really believe the first paragraph that bad weather is God torturing folk. Why not do what the guy in 2nd paragraph quoted did, and show your God that torturing millions of people isn't a way to get you to bend to his will, worship him etc?

Surely we should write to Bush and say "Good on you mate, this God is a #$%#$, he tortures millions of people, be anything but Godly"

Or does torture work? You seem to be suggesting surrender to the God of torture so that the torture stops. John McCain didn't worry about his personal pain did he? But it's understandable, if you're stood watching others getting tortured, better them than you and you've been promised less pain and they probably deserved it too, eh? It's not like they're believers.

What a great moral stance.

[pianistimo]

you greatly misunderstand me.  i didn't say God tortures.  He allows our own foolishness to return to us.  we have caused climate warming ourselves.  He didn't do it.  we have caused ourselves to be cursed.  the only way we can escape our own cursing of ourselves is to return to God and be humble.  He says he rejects the proud and holds up the cause of the humble. 

Pres. Bush is probably doing the best he can and understands to in His position.  it is my wish that he never get distracted by setbacks.  there was an article in today's paper that explained how to get from A to B without getting distracted by setbacks.  it explained that if we always keep one hand on the till of the rudder of the boat we are sailing - and daily make little adjustments - we can reach the far shore of our intended destination.  but, if we don't make the little adjustments every day we can float far ashore of our intended goal.

if i understand correctly, our intended goal is to make Iraq a democracy.  maybe we should make a slight adjustment and settle for a peaceful nation - and one that allows more freedom to women and voting rights to all - yet a government that is according to their own customs somewhat and not totally american version.  i hope all our soldiers come back ASAP and not dependent on what terrorists do or don't do.  we've done about as much as a nation possibly could to restore freedom to those who didn't have it.  some are grateful and others are not.  how can we win if we just wait and wait to see what happens around the corner.  we must outwit the enemy - and let them bite themselves if they must.

[leahcim]

you greatly misunderstand me.  i didn't say God tortures.

Fair enough, I thought you said we're experiencing God's wrath.

[tolkien]

Well, I hate what I percieve as ignorance and the blind acceptance of religion. Christianity is not something that I am indifferent to, it is something that I actually despise. I believe it has held man back and taught not to trust his instincts - I personally see that as something bad for humanity. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean that I am not interested in the evolution of religion and morality. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

"Hell is filled with people like you!" (Chandler Bing) I find your absolutist perceptions sad. And don't apologize for your beliefs. Just enjoy them while they last!

[tolkien]

He says he rejects the proud and holds up the cause of the humble. 

Pres. Bush is probably doing the best he can and understands to in His position.

Now, isn't that a contradiction?

[pianistimo]

perhaps i should say He's allowing us to reap the consequences of our actions.  there are places in the bible that speak of justice being done.   He allows Satan (the destroyer) room to grow in the minds and hearts of those that He is cast down to work through.  if hitler could be possessed and affect so many people, so can another figure.

i believe that every knee will bow when Christ returns, no matter how high or low.  president bush will have a greater responsiblity as a leader of a nation.  yet, we also have a responsiblity to respond to leadership of our own country.  if we fight among ourselves, then our enemies get the upper hand.  sometimes we don't understand how God can work things out for good - even if things look terrible.  i think we should support our leaders - but maintain our freedom of speech to say what we believe.  if they fear God, they will do what is right. 

 

[leahcim]

perhaps i should say He's allowing us to reap the consequences of our actions.  there are places in the bible that speak of justice being done.   He allows Satan (the destroyer) room to grow in the minds and hearts of those that He is cast down to work through.  if hitler could be possessed and affect so many people, so can another figure. 

If God has morals like that and his followers believe them, I understand why the French needed a good samaritan law.

[pianistimo]

the french have done nothing to stop terrorism even in their own country.  the president of france recently went on tv and said nothing that seemed to cause any effect the following day.  more and more rioting.  the french are in trouble because they didn't help the usa fight terror when they should have.  that's my opinion, of course.

just so you don't think i'm trying to argue everything - i believe things will soon be out of the hands of leaders of nations and the 'united nations' will be next to step in.  of course, that will mean gathering all the armies around iraq - just as bible prophecy says.  when people see this happen - they might believe that prophecy has proved the existence of God and the things that were foretold by His prophets many years ago regarding our very age.

the euphrates river, in iraq, is prophecied to 'dry up' and allow the nations to walk through it. the battle for world dominion is a crazy thought - but not so abstract (otherwise their wouldn't be so many movies and books about the idea).  there must be a positive end to it all. otherwise - it's simple a horrible way to end the entire world.  i believe God will miraculously step in and when His feet touch the Mt. of Olives that great earthquake that happened when he was resurrected will happen again.  the Mt. of Olives will break in two (because of the size of the earthquake).  so many things are prophecied and have been and are coming to pass.

[leahcim]

Perhaps heaven has a big screen cinema where you can watch people suffer from the consequences of their actions? All those folk that run with scissors or didn't wear a seatbelt and a natural disaster matinee every 2nd Wednesday.

What I meant was, the French [and others too aiui] basically have a law that appears absurd and unnecessary, that if you can help someone without endangering yourself you must.

I once thought, who would stand there and do nothing so that you'd need a law to make them act? God, and perhaps a few with a twisted morality.

[chopiabin]

Not that you have, but because you said you didn't see the point in religious threads that go over the same ground again and again. I wondered what ground exactly you think something that is completely baloney can go over instead of the same thing?

If your answer is "nothing, I said a bit earlier the threads are pointless" - then so did I in the reply - at which point you started telling me that you have an interest in the threads and you were sorry if I had a problem with that. It seems a bit of a reversal, from saying it's pointless to arguing for the merits of discussing the topic.

If there's any fact in religion from an atheist viewpoint I can only see it being w.r.t historical content, so I wondered if that was what interested you in the subject.

Hopefully the above has clarified it but you then say "Oh, and I don't remember feeling that anything was missing from the debate" yet you said earlier "every time a new religion thread comes up, nearly the exact same topics are covered"

To me  the 2nd quote is either the most obvious empty statement in the world, or, by assuming you had a point implied, I assumed that you meant that the religious thread could /should be discussing different  things each time. Evidently from what you've said, it was just an empty obvious statement that religious threads discuss religion. Fair enough

I'm terribly sorry that I accidentally contradicted myself. My intended point was that, though it is sometimes frustrating, I still often find it interesting to read and contribute to these debates. Please forgive me.

The reason why I can't understand half of what you say is that your grammar is very unclear and you use abbreviations that I've never heard of. What is w.r.t? Pov?

[leahcim]

w.r.t = with respect to.
pov = point of view.

[pianistimo]

He does act in the lives of those that call on Him now.  but, for the world at large, they would claim they have lost 'freedom.'  if God acted in the world now, people would say he didn't give us free will.  but, if He acts at the right time - people will see where that has gotten us - to choose our own good and evil and the consequences of our own actions. 

[ahmedito]

.... so, has anything new been said here?

[leahcim]

.... so, has anything new been said here?

About 24 times. Twice in this thread.

[perfect_pitch]

I suppose the only thing funnier than Scientists proving God didn't exist, would be if Scientists accidently proved that God DID exist.

If only....

[ryguillian]

Oh, my, look what I have started.

—Ryan

[stevie]

• h, my, look what I have [F]arted.

—Ryan

ughhh....

[ryguillian]

Bounce.

—Ryan

[mosis]

Whether God exists or not is not that question that concerns us. The question should be:

"If God does or does not exist, what difference does it make?"

[donjuan]

Whether God exists or not is not that question that concerns us. The question should be:

"If God does or does not exist, what difference does it make?"

well, if he exists, then I'm going straight to hell..

[lisztisforkids]

Whether God exists or not is not that question that concerns us. The question should be:

"If God does or does not exist, what difference does it make?"

That is most excellent. The answer is in each of us to discover for ourselves.

well, if he exists, then I'm going straight to hell..

Hell dosent exist, the only there is, is the Hell we make ourselves.

[pianistimo]

if 'hell' wasn't what people thought it was, they might reconsider the idea.  (i mean - not trying to go to it).  basically, in revelations it's called 'the second death.'  God says he's judging the world, and to be fair, by the bible.  he wouldn't judge us without giving us precepts to follow.  a judge has to have a law established.  but, then he paid the penalty for our sins.  so we can be judged an out and out sinner, but if we are humble and repent we can be similar to the thief on the cross who repented as he was dying.  i'm not suggesting waiting to the last minute - but whenever God speaks to you - listen!

i believe the reference of lazarus and the rich man - is to that in-between stage - which dante may express as an eternity and which may seem like one - where the sheep and the goats are divided and cannot cross ove to the other side.  one is translated to be with God and the other to be with death.  to be eternally dead.  burned up.  no more.  that's how i understand hell.

[Torp]

NO.

[semme]

i believe the reference of lazarus and the rich man

i just heard a sermon about that. I think the point was something like lazarus had a bad life on earth, he was poor and ate the pieces that fell from the rich man's table. the rich man had a nice life. and after death, it changed. ( lazarus in heaven and the rich man in "hell") on earth the rich man had the chance to bring heaven to earth ( by showing love to lazarus ), acting like christians should act: respect, honor, value.


btw, why is it the only person in a parable who has a name?

i have no idea what heaven and hell looks like. or even the descriptions of john in revelations. he has a totally different view to all the things he saw, compared to a man living in the 21th century. so i dont really care about that.

[pianistimo]

yes.  john saw many things.  he saw the 'end of the world' as we know it (or next generations will) and also saw the beginning of the kingdom of God.  it's not exactly heaven as 'lets all fly around.'  it shows the millenial rule of Christ on the earth!  that's why people don't understand what Christ said in his parable that 'the meek will inherit the earth.'  he's starting here!  and then, moving on to a 'new heaven and new earth.'

i don't understand all of it...but if you read from the last chapters of revelations - you see that John saw God's throne brought to us.  that we will at last 'see God - as He is.'  His throne has a radiance and his temple is full of beauty.  i think it mentions that there will be a pure river of 'life' and that the trees nearby will be for healing.  i just read this - and think - i hope it comes soon - because a lot of people are really hurting right now.

as i understand the bible, God's kingdom will be first brought by Christ returning to the mount of olives.  his saints will be ressurrected and 'caught up in the clouds' and yet return with Him to rule.  how can they rule if they can't make themselves visible.  i think this would be a false thing for Christ to say if He didn't have the power to make it so.  king david will be ruling at his right hand.  the lion will lie down with the lamb and the little child will be able to put his hand in a snake hole and not be bitten.  i think it will be a time of retraining the world about God and his ways - and people will live out full and rewarding lives.  swords to plowshares, etc.

i don't understand how it can be so - but i take hope in the future because what else could there be.  there is no hope in death.  since God can do anything - He can certainly change people from life to life.  there will be no more death.  originally there was no death until sin entered the world.  but, we have been redeemed from sin - so there is more hope in the bible than any other kind of philosophy (imo).  i don't want to be reincarnated.

say, i watched a show on pbs tonight, too, about specific locations (ramah, etc) in egypt that still have the remains of buildings from the time of the pharoahs that were over the israelites in egypt.  the exact names of places mentioned in the exodus are still there in egypt - just as places in iraq are still there today (babylon).  someone asked - well - how would you prove to someone that the bible is authentic.  to me, the historical and archeological studies prove that these places and people did exist.  in fact, the place where the israelites made mud bricks is still a location of brick making (mud pits) in much the same way as israel made them so many years ago.

[leahcim]

His throne has a radiance

Probably got one of those Glade ® Press 'n Fresh ® things?