Slow playing. Should I raise fingers in slow playing?

[PaulNaud]

Should we raise fingers in slow playing? How should be done the finger stroke? What is the russian school approach or Neuhaus approach should I say? I'd like to have Marik's advice because he studied with Lev Naumov.

[rimv2]

No

No

NO

NOO


And NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


If you raise the fingers in slow play as a have learned by personal experience, you will suffer much greatly when you speed the piece up.

[m]

Should we raise fingers in slow playing? How should be done the finger stroke? What is the russian school approach or Neuhaus approach should I say? I'd like to have Marik's advice because he studied with Lev Naumov.

Dear Paul,

I did not follow this board for quite awhile... since my last fight here.
Anyway, this is a very good question, and is much more interesting than to know who had better technique--Liszt or modern pianists, or whether Glenn Gould was the best pianist...

First of all, why would you need to raise your fingers? Is it something that your teacher told you, or did you read it in books? What is the purpose? What would it serve?

For now let's forget about Russian, or any other schools.

Our main object is musical image. That is what you should have in your head first--emotional context of the piece, dynamics, phrasing, sound and its place in the musical context, and how the sound would reveal all the emotional and musical subtleties of particular piece.

Let’s say, this image already exists in your head and now should get materialized (i.e. translated into some kind of pianistic motion). The most important is not to waste any energy on the way, and translate it as close to the image you have, as it is possible.
That’s it—it is like to carry a basket topped with water, without spilling even a little drop.
Would you start jumping, while delivering that?
Of course, you will need to find the most efficient way of doing that.

So let’s see what is the mechanism of piano playing is all about.
You have the image—your head sends impulse to your finger-tip—you hear produced sound—like a feedback your brain compares this sound to the musical image you have, deciding what is the place in the music context it has—and next impulse is the one of correction, deciding how the next sound should be adjusted to fit into the whole picture.

If on the way there is any physical tension whatsoever (in your shoulders, arms, palms, or even in finger joints) it blocks this impulse. Since your brain sends the next signal of correction (feedback) but the impulse does not reach the destination (finger tip), either, the whole mechanism gets completely mixed up, and all these impulses get clashed in your body, without any way out, disturbing your musical image.

So the usual “relaxation approach” is not about injuries (although directly related), but about music itself—how your brain translates the music into the fingers. The funny stuff is that all this process is so natural (if you do it right), that music comes the most natural way, and actually is part of your body. The injuries are irrelevant in this case.

And now let’s think about it—all this energy, this impulse should go straight INTO THE KEY. Why would you want to waist even an ounce of it? If you raise your fingers, the energy is actually going OUT THE KEY. Instead of one task (directly translating the energy), you actually do three jobs here--first, you accumulate the energy; second, you go up, dissipating this energy; then finally third--you are trying to catch up, going down, but the energy of your image is already gone. The sound you produce is already not connected to the context of the previous one—you have already lost this energy of CONNECTION of musical image by disconnecting it with UNNECCESSARY PHYSICAL work.   

Fingers should penetrate into the keys, closely following the musical image of the sound. They should not strike the keys, but follow the musical image in the most natural way, with motions suitable only to particular piece of music, directly translating the image into the sound. Any physical motion, which is out of the musical context is a WASTE—HUGE WASTE.

On the other hand, it is impossible to give general advice over internet. In fact, I strongly believe it might be rather harmful. Half an hour next to a piano can explain more than hundreds of books, which anyway have no any connection with music and can create even more confusion.

[bernhard]

Dear Paul,

I did not follow this board for quite awhile... since my last fight here.
Anyway, this is a very good question, and is much more interesting than to know who had better technique--Liszt or modern pianists, or whether Glenn Gould was the best pianist...

First of all, why would you need to raise your fingers? Is it something that your teacher told you, or did you read it in books? What is the purpose? What would it serve?

For now let's forget about Russian, or any other schools.

Our main object is musical image. That is what you should have in your head first--emotional context of the piece, dynamics, phrasing, sound and its place in the musical context, and how the sound would reveal all the emotional and musical subtleties of particular piece.

Let’s say, this image already exists in your head and now should get materialized (i.e. translated into some kind of pianistic motion). The most important is not to waste any energy on the way, and translate it as close to the image you have, as it is possible.
That’s it—it is like to carry a basket topped with water, without spilling even a little drop.
Would you start jumping, while delivering that?
Of course, you will need to find the most efficient way of doing that.

So let’s see what is the mechanism of piano playing is all about.
You have the image—your head sends impulse to your finger-tip—you hear produced sound—like a feedback your brain compares this sound to the musical image you have, deciding what is the place in the music context it has—and next impulse is the one of correction, deciding how the next sound should be adjusted to fit into the whole picture.

If on the way there is any physical tension whatsoever (in your shoulders, arms, palms, or even in finger joints) it blocks this impulse. Since your brain sends the next signal of correction (feedback) but the impulse does not reach the destination (finger tip), either, the whole mechanism gets completely mixed up, and all these impulses get clashed in your body, without any way out, disturbing your musical image.

So the usual “relaxation approach” is not about injuries (although directly related), but about music itself—how your brain translates the music into the fingers. The funny stuff is that all this process is so natural (if you do it right), that music comes the most natural way, and actually is part of your body. The injuries are irrelevant in this case.

And now let’s think about it—all this energy, this impulse should go straight INTO THE KEY. Why would you want to waist even an ounce of it? If you raise your fingers, the energy is actually going OUT THE KEY. Instead of one task (directly translating the energy), you actually do three jobs here--first, you accumulate the energy; second, you go up, dissipating this energy; then finally third--you are trying to catch up, going down, but the energy of your image is already gone. The sound you produce is already not connected to the context of the previous one—you have already lost this energy of CONNECTION of musical image by disconnecting it with UNNECCESSARY PHYSICAL work.   

Fingers should penetrate into the keys, closely following the musical image of the sound. They should not strike the keys, but follow the musical image in the most natural way, with motions suitable only to particular piece of music, directly translating the image into the sound. Any physical motion, which is out of the musical context is a WASTE—HUGE WASTE.

On the other hand, it is impossible to give general advice over internet. In fact, I strongly believe it might be rather harmful. Half an hour next to a piano can explain more than hundreds of books, which anyway have no any connection with music and can create even more confusion.

Another beautiful and most enlightening post. Thank you again.

[spirithorn]

To Marik -
One of the better posts I've seen in some time.  Exactly right, IMO.

[PaulNaud]

Dear Marik,

First of all, thank you for replying so fast.

Secondly, have you read my other post about George Kochevitsky? If you haven't done it please read it here:
                   George Kochevitsky: "...while practicing fingers should be raised to obtain the most distinct sensations from their action, but only as much as needed for this purpose. As a rule, the first joint of the finger should never be raised higher than the back of the palm: higher raising would cause overstrain of the muscles concerned. What is important is strong, active finger work, since we receive much weaker sensations from weak movements than from strong ones. A slight pressure into the key after its full depression is recommended in slow practicing. Tactile sensations as well sensations from finger muscle contractions will be strengthened in this way."

I don't know if he is contradicting himself, but 2 paragraphs further he tells us this: " Therefore, among several varieties of practice for finger articulation, the following is the best: first, fingers are prepared on the keys to be pressed. Each finger then presses with a light downward movement only,never leaving its key. (Thus the size of finger movement is equal to the depth of the key.) And playing proceedes very slowly, pianissimo, with the whole attention concentrated on the fingertips. The downward movement of one finger must be synchronized with the movement of the preceeding finger as it lets its key rise. At the lightest sensation of fatigue in the upper parts of the arm, this practice should be stopped."

Is this the Neuhaus system? Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis.


Thirdly, may I introduce myself?
I am 51 years old. I started playing the piano at the age of 14. At the age of 16, I changed my piano teacher and I studied with a Rumanian-born pianist in Montreal (Canada) for four years. (His name is Mircea Manole, he was a student of Florica Musicescu, Dinu lipatti's teacher in Bucarest).

The approach was the so-called weight technique. My teacher would often quote the Leimer-Gieseking method and sometimes Heinrich Neuhaus. I would start studying a piece by working the length of about one page of music. I would learn each hand separate (by heart). I would first play very slowly (I insist), raising as much as I could my fingers, watching each sound very carefully by using the weight of the arm, always preparing the next finger to play and then, I would put together both hands and work the same way. The next step was a new way of practicing. I would play a little bit faster (but still slow), this time my fingers very close to the keys ( not admitting a cigarette paper between my fingers and the keys, like prof. Neuhaus said in his book the Art of Piano Playing). And then I would accelerate little by little, sometimes going back to first steps.

My teacher always insisted on finger action and arm weight and also on the control of sound and the beauty of sound.

I went back to France because part of my family live over there and I met a well-known piano teacher at the Conservatoire de Marseille, prof. Pierre Barbizet. But I could not follow any of the new teachers I met. Their approach was so different and I thought that my Rumanian piano teacher was the best.

So I went back to Montreal but my former teacher could not teach me any more. So I searched for other teachers for 2 or 3 years without success.

I decided to continue playing the piano by my self after discovering a book called Guided Sight-Reading by Leonard Deutsch. His method: sight-read for pleasure, don't look at your keys, guide your hands with your ears and watch the sound you're producing. Play a piece of music as a whole. I did so for 20 years.

I tried all sorts of approaches while sight-reading.

Two years ago I read on the web a very interesting text by Stefan Kutrzeba: " The Chopin Neuhaus system" . He is talking about the "zone". It is very similar to what you wrote to me in your reply.

After exchanging some ideas with Stefan Kutrzeba, I decided last year to register at the music Faculty of the Université du Québec (I already have a bachelor of music). I was accepted after an audition. I am now studying with Henri Brassard. He is helping me to overcome some technical difficulties (He said to me it's all psychological), but I don't always agree with him. Especially when he gives me an exercice that I should practice 20 minutes every day: Hand almost flat, it should be over the keyboard at about 5 cm height, and then strike the key with only the weight of each finger. Scale is done in the same way with the thumb-over technique, I don't know if you heard about this technique.

MY QUESTIONS:
1) My problem is speed. I can't play fast. I can control the sound, beautiful sound but I can't reach the desired tempo.

2) In prof. Neuhaus book "The Art of Piano Playing" he talks about very active fingers as a way of practicing to build fingers muscles!!! opposed to the other very close key approach. Should we raise fingers when practicing?

3) May be that this whole idea that certain movements or positions of hands or arms will produce beautiful sounds is wrong. That's what I should start to understand.

Thank you for reading this very long post and if you have additionnal thoughts don't hesitate to send them to me.

Paul

[crazy for ivan moravec]

i used to do a lot of high fingers but it makes me tired right away! so i lessened it by 70%.

the thing i find so effective about the high finger practice is that my running passages become become clearer and even. i think that this practice is just an exaggerated version of the real thing. we cant deny that our fingers do move when we play, and they move a little upward then downward, of course, it's still the weight and pressure that makes the essential sound... but there is movement up-down.

i find that when i exaggerate things in my piano practice, i am able to listen better and it's easier to control if im trying to make "even" sounds (esp with running passages).  i start to practice running passages very slow, like M.M. 16th note = 80, raising my fingers BUT not to hurt them, listening to each note of the running passage if they are "even" to the rest, eventually go faster notch by notch while the raising of the fingers becomes lower and lower until i reach the "a tempo" - by then i'd be playing close to the keys. but the whole time i was working on the eveness of each note to the others, i was getting used to the "ideal" basic good sound of a passage, coupled with going faster notch by notch and also little by little eliminating the raising of the fingers little by little.

it works well for me, i don't know with others as it might not be the same..

- crazy

[PaulNaud]

crazy,

Who taught you this way. I would be interested to know from which piano school he comes?
Paul

[kriskicksass]

I don't think that comes from any particular school. I do it too, and nobody ever taught it to me. I use it to learn fast pieces quickly and affectionately call it my "super technique sitting." haha

[crazy for ivan moravec]

my teacher was a student of Solomon Mikowsky from manhattan school for 15 years. i got the "open/high finger" practice from my teacher because that was what he was taught. somehow i modified the process of doing it.

But i would like to add some things, if u dont mind.

my teacher's philosophy is that the higher and harder (note this) u strike the key, the more strength your fingers will have. i really didnt buy it coz i knew our fingers didn't have that much muscles to develop. maybe if it was to strengthen my arms i would do it, but not the fingers. plus, it hurts my hand and i easily get tired. and also, that the muscles we are talking about in piano playing are not muscles that we would like to make stronger by lifting weights or striking the keys as hard as you can. rather, it's how we use it, how the brain remembers the movements of those muscles, how quick should it go, when to relax, etc.

however, the first time i tried the open finger practice, i noticed that it helps with my articulation. so now, i raise my fingers for the reason that my brain thinks of the sound, touch, stretch of my fingers, which finger plays what note, etc...
but i dont strike very hard (contrary to what my teacher tells me to do). i play it slow and loud using my arm weight and not finger strength, so the first joints of my fingers have to be very firm, but loose wrist!).

it's like the raising of my fingers is a way for me to help my brain think that this is how it should sound, feel, be articulated; firstly exaggerating, then little by little eliminating.

i've read a few technique books and i find leimer/gieseking to be very effective. it makes so much sense! i follow that kind of thinking for practice.

sorry for elaborating a little. i love talking about this.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

btw, mikowsky was a student of goronidzki (spelling?) who was a student of levinne.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

forgot to add again... i dont think that the open finger practice came from levinne either... could have been invented by goronidzski or mikowsky.

[PaulNaud]

crazy,

so we're going back to the basic question: SHOULD WE PRACACTICE SLOWLY?

because  " practicing too slowly  DISTORT our technique, because we automate movements quite DIFFERENT from those needed in our real playing. " JOSEF GAT

Comments.......................................................

Paul

[crazy for ivan moravec]

i think that is not the question!

"Slow playing. Should we raise fingers in slow playing?" The emphasis of your sentence is wrong then. In function, the Direct Objective (fingers) is more important than the Object of the Preposition "in" (slow playing). The subject "we" of course is the most important.

anyways, i think u are trying to get crazier than me, Crazy for Ivan Moravec.

i will try to answer the question on SLOW PRACTICE:

simple... yes... because it has worked for years! rachmaninoff did it. everyone did/does it

you must tell yourself that in slow practice, u do things differently in order to achieve something else for the performance playing which are entirely different hand movements, sometimes even the opposite ones. so don't mix up whatever movements u do in slow practice with the performance playing.

u only exaggerate things in slow practice. for example... for playing a good articulated mozart, u would need to raise those fingers just a little bit, which means you would have to master the art of raising them by doing it in slow tempo and exaggerated raising because if u can exagerate/do more of the raising, then you surely can do more of normal raising of the fingers for articulation.

but again, returning to the phrase that "technique is all in the mind", take note that even if your movements during slow practice are totally different from performance, you should always keep in MIND that whatever you do during slow practice stays in practice only... the results you are trying to achieve are not necessarily identical to what you do during slow practice.

im not sure i got to explain it well in words... my espression is poor... but i know it in my heart for myself coz that's what i always do... it worked for me over the years.

all the best.

[PaulNaud]

MANY THANKS CRAZY,
GOOD THOUGHTS!!!

Paul