The most overated composer.

[lisztisforkids]

In this forum, my vote goes to Sorabji. I am so sick of hearing about the OC. In the real world, I think that Liszt and Mozart could afford to drop a level or two.

[superstition2]

In this forum, my vote goes to Sorabji. I am so sick of hearing about the OC. In the real world, In the real world, I think that Liszt and Mozart could afford to drop a level or two.

I've never heard Sorabji. lol

My vote is John Cage.

[chopiabin]

I agree with the comment about Liszt, and, though I've only heard bits of Sorabji, I think much of his popularity has to do with the quest for the "hardest piece". I also don't really like Schubert much, but that could just be because his music feels too "salonish" and light.

[superstition2]

Liszt's sonata in B minor is fab. The mephisto waltz is grand. The Dante sonata is pretty good. I also like the dance macabre (played by Horowitz).

[BoliverAllmon]

My vote goes for liszt and Chopin

[g_s_223]

Piano: Hanon
Non-Piano: Mahler

[BoliverAllmon]

why mahler? I love his symphonies.

[chopiabin]

Liszt's sonata in B minor is fab. The mephisto waltz is grand. The Dante sonata is pretty good. I also like the dance macabre (played by Horowitz).

Yeah, but for a body of work so large, isn't that kind of awful? I mean, he was bound to get a few right!!

[BoliverAllmon]

a stopped watch still tells the correct time twice a day!!!! Of course Liszt was going to get lucky.

[arensky]

Boulez

[m]

In this forum, my vote goes to Sorabji.

I am not sure if Aliston will see or say something about this. If yes, I believe it will be quite colorful .

I also like the dance macabre (played by Horowitz).

As far as I know the author is Saint-Saëns. Yes, I also like the recording, mostly due to phenomenal Horowitz mastery. Otherwise, in my opinion, this is a quite mediocre piece of music.

[ahinton]

I am not sure if Aliston will see or say something about this. If yes, I believe it will be quite colorful .

As far as I know the author is Saint-Saëns. Yes, I also like the recording, mostly due to phenomenal Horowitz mastery. Otherwise, in my opinion, this is a quite mediocre piece of music.

It's Alistair, actually. Anyway - people can vote for just whomsoever they choose. Is that "colorful" enough for you?

Best,

Alistair

[m]

It's Alistair, actually.

Duh!!! My deepest apologies! Once again proves it is a good idea to read back after typing fast.

Anyway - people can vote for just whomsoever they choose.

Sure!
But if they knew at least something about they choose...

[JCarey]

This is a terrible topic. What is the purpose of it anyway? This has not only been discussed several times before, but it often leads to flame wars.

I wouldn't be surprised if you started this topic just so you could tell people to stop discussing Sorabji. Well guess what - if you aren't interested in a topic about a certain composer, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ IT! Isn't that great?

P.S. - I knew this thread was going to be about Sorabji before I clicked on it!

[Etude]

In this forum, my vote goes to Sorabji. I am so sick of hearing about the OC. In the real world, I think that Liszt and Mozart could afford to drop a level or two.

Ahem, well then, you know the answer to that, don't you?  OK I'll tell you:

Stop clicking on topics about the OC!!!


IT's SO SIMPLE!!!

yet so effective!

so next time you're not in the mood for a discussion of oc:

DON'T JOIN ONE!!!

I hope I've helped.

Anyway, this topic is pretty worthless in itself. 

I've never heard Sorabji. lol

My vote is John Cage.

WELL, you're in luck, because you can start with this:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000003IXZ001001/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000003IXV001002/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000003IXV001001/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000003IYI001002/0/002-1576154-9311200


And judge for yourself, rather than this... thing in which the.... performer, doesn't even make an attempt to stick to the SCORE!:

I'm sure everyone's heard enough of the details:

www.johncareycompositions.com/madge/MadgeImprov6.mp3

[stevie]

liszt is underrated, i feel.

look more into his music, there is MUCH innovation and incredibly inspired music.

[Etude]

I've never heard Sorabji. lol

My vote is John Cage.

Have you heard his "In A Landscape"?  It really is quite beautiful:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000003EL7001001/0/002-1576154-9311200

Then, you get the "crazy" stuff:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00005A8A6001003/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00005A8A6001012/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00005A8A6001010/0/002-1576154-9311200

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00005A8A6001016/0/002-1576154-9311200

These are actually some of my favourite music, just be prepared (no pun intended [seriously!]).  You know, don't expect to hear conventional music or you won't stand a chance.  It's about rhythm and timbre, not harmony and melody.  Keep that in mind.

In any case, I've always got the impression that Cage is universally hated as one of the worst composers.  So I don't think he would qualify as, "overated".

[chopiabin]

This is a terrible topic. What is the purpose of it anyway? This has not only been discussed several times before, but it often leads to flame wars.

I wouldn't be surprised if you started this topic just so you could tell people to stop discussing Sorabji. Well guess what - if you aren't interested in a topic about a certain composer, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ IT! Isn't that great?

P.S. - I knew this thread was going to be about Sorabji before I clicked on it!

Actually, it's not about him at all - it's about overrated composers, and apparently a lot of people think he is one. Just because you're obsessed doesn't mean that other people have to love Sorabji or even value him in any way as a composer.

[Etude]

No, but how predictable is it getting?  In fact why is the first work they mention by him the OC?  Surely they must know the two recordings don't do it much justice?  Why not try some of his shorter works, like the ones I posted above?  Isn't it easier to become familiar with his style, that way, rather than to go plunging straight into the depths of the two dreadful recordings of OC, with no prior knowledge of Sorabji's music, and none subsequent to hearing?  He wrote some really beautiful music, that has been recorded to an acceptable standard, and beyond!  So why try to form an opinion of his music, without hearing some of it presented decently?

[JCarey]

Actually, it's not about him at all - it's about overrated composers, and apparently a lot of people think he is one. Just because you're obsessed doesn't mean that other people have to love Sorabji or even value him in any way as a composer.

I'm not obsessed. I'm only determined to eliminate judgements based on ignorance. Also, I never said that other people had to "love Sorabji" or "value him in any way as a composer". But seriously, is it wrong for me to correct people when they make stupid statements such as "I don't like the OC because it doesn't have a melody"? Now, I would understand if somebody were to say, "I don't like the OC because I find the chord progessions boring and the melodies uninteresting." But it seems that when most of the members on this board and elsewhere criticize Sorabji, they are merely making ignorant statements that are usually not even true.

The point is, this is a bad topic that invites hostility between members. People often get offended when their favorite composers end up in this thread. Also, if somebody thinks a composer is "overrated", and isn't interested in reading topics about them, then they should just ignore the topics. This isn't rocket science.

Also, when I used the term "ignorance", I was not referring to anyone in particular, so don't attack me for it...

[ryguillian]

The fact that these talkers can't justify their claims about Sorabji and his works is indicative of their poverty of intelligence and taste.

—Ryan

[JCarey]

There are people who seem to love specific music for no reason at all and there are people who seem to hate specific music for no reason at all; both camps have a tremendous poverty of intelligence and taste.

—Ryan

Agreed.

[lisztisforkids]

This is fun watching you guys try to savage each other.

The fact that these talkers can't justify their claims about Sorabji and his works is indicative of their poverty of intelligence and taste.

—Ryan

Truth be told, I havent heard all of the OC. Nor do I want to hear the rest of this collosal 4 hour long work. Not only do I beleive that many of the melodys and chord progressions are boring, but its all just to much to take in.

[JCarey]

Not only do I beleive that many of the melodys and chord progressions are boring, but its all just to much to take in.

Fair enough. That is what the Fantasie Espagnole is for! 

[BoliverAllmon]

Now I have heard that piece and find it worth while. Makes me look forward to the other pieces that i have yet to hear including the OC.

[JCarey]

Now I have heard that piece and find it worth while. Makes me look forward to the other pieces that i have yet to hear including the OC.

Whose recording did you hear?

[JCarey]

Also, just for fun, here is a rather light-hearted introduction to one of Sorabji's songs for Soprano - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/SongGalante.mp3

[ryguillian]

t[']s all just to much to take in.

Most don't have the attention span to seriously listen to one of Bach's fugues, let alone something on the scale of Opus clavicembalisticum.

—Ryan

P.S. I'm not trying to "savage" anybody; whatever the hell that means.

[BoliverAllmon]

Whose recording did you hear?

no clue. It was on a website a while back.

[lisztisforkids]

Most don't have the attention span to seriously listen to one of Bach's fugues, let alone something on the scale of Opus clavicembalisticum.

—Ryan

 What a load of poppycock. Bach is one the most popular composers in history. Bach fuges are standard repertoire. The OC is completly different. Not only is some incredibly dense music at aome points, but its 4 hours long. Ofcourse people dont have the attention span to listen to it.

[ryguillian]

What a load of poppycock. Bach is one the most popular composers in history. Bach fuges are standard repertoire. The OC is completly different. Not only is some incredibly dense music at aome points, but its 4 hours long. Ofcourse people dont have the attention span to listen to it.

When I wrote "seriously listen", I meant it. Most people listen to a Bach fugue in the same way that they'd listen to a Beatles song: passively. But how many actively listen and actually experience Bach's counterpoint unwinding and evolving? How many actually identify the subject and listen to it swim through a fugue? To do this requires some deal of attention, and a work like "OC" requires even more (Sorabji's requires active listening). How many actually know what it is to struggle with a piece of music?

—Ryan

[Etude]

Exactly.

[phil13]

a stopped watch still tells the correct time twice a day!!!! Of course Liszt was going to get lucky.

These are all gems:

Sonata in B minor
Hungarian Rhapsodies Nos. 2, 6, 11, 13, 15, and 19
Spanish Rhapsody
Mephisto Waltz
Dante Sonata
All 3 Petrarch Sonnets
The rest of Annees de Pelerinage: Italia, for that matter.
Piano Concerto No.1
Ballade No.2 in B minor
Valse-Caprice No.6 in A minor
Transcendental Etude No. 10 in F minor
Paganini Etude: La Campanella

Those are all (with the exception of Campanella and the Valse-Caprice) ORIGINAL works. Liszt's repertoire is cut down significantly when you remove from it: all the transcriptions he did, all the revisions of his own works he did because no one else possessed the virtuosity (i.e. Transcendental Etudes), all the pieces that functioned as more than one work (i.e. the first Etude Op.1 which appeared as 4 or 5 of his other pieces, if not more), and all the works that he transcribed and then added virtuosity (i.e. most of his Concert and Paganini Etudes).

I believe his stopped watch was right a lot more than you think. Give him some credit people.

Phil

[BoliverAllmon]

These are all gems:

Sonata in B minor
Hungarian Rhapsodies Nos. 2, 6, 11, 13, 15, and 19
Spanish Rhapsody
Mephisto Waltz
Dante Sonata
All 3 Petrarch Sonnets
The rest of Annees de Pelerinage: Italia, for that matter.
Piano Concerto No.1
Ballade No.2 in B minor
Valse-Caprice No.6 in A minor
Transcendental Etude No. 10 in F minor
Paganini Etude: La Campanella

seeing that out of those pieces I still don't like either sonata really, his ballade is ok, I despise the mesphisto, I'll listen to his PC at times, not a fan of the f min. Tran. etude.  I stand by my statement. I think he is overrated. I like his spanish rhapsody only because it is virtuosic, same goes for GGC, it is just fun to watch someone perform it, not listen to it really. nothing great musically.

boliver

[phil13]

seeing that out of those pieces I still don't like either sonata really, his ballade is ok, I despise the mesphisto, I'll listen to his PC at times, not a fan of the f min. Tran. etude.  I stand by my statement. I think he is overrated. I like his spanish rhapsody only because it is virtuosic, same goes for GGC, it is just fun to watch someone perform it, not listen to it really. nothing great musically.

boliver

Okay, but will you agree that it isn't fair to say that he only had a handful of 'good' pieces for the amount he wrote when at least half of his 750+ works are just revisions, re-orchestrations, transcriptions, modifications, and variants?

Phil

[chopiabin]

I don't dispute that Liszt was talented, but I just get sick of listening to glitter and double octaves. There's so much bombast even in his best works that seems pointless - his Petrarchan Sonnet 104 for instance - the piece is really interesting and is one of my favorites by him, but there are just some random runs that seems to contribute nothing but sparkle. Is Liszt fun to play? I'm sure he is, but I just don't think there's much meat in proportion to fluff.

About Sorabji - again, I never said he wasn't talented or worthy, but I DO think that he's overrated - it seems like a lot of people just want to hear people play the most difficult pieces simply because of the virtuosity required.

[apion]

In the realm of piano, TCHAIKOVSKY = OVERRATED

[ahinton]

This is a terrible topic. What is the purpose of it anyway? This has not only been discussed several times before, but it often leads to flame wars.

I wouldn't be surprised if you started this topic just so you could tell people to stop discussing Sorabji. Well guess what - if you aren't interested in a topic about a certain composer, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ IT! Isn't that great?

P.S. - I knew this thread was going to be about Sorabji before I clicked on it!

I endorse these comments 100%; I also suspected that Sorabji would get in here pretty early on, if not even at the outset...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

seeing that out of those pieces I still don't like either sonata really, his ballade is ok, I despise the mesphisto, I'll listen to his PC at times, not a fan of the f min. Tran. etude.  I stand by my statement. I think he is overrated. I like his spanish rhapsody only because it is virtuosic, same goes for GGC, it is just fun to watch someone perform it, not listen to it really. nothing great musically.

boliver

thats personal taste

same goes for your old buddy shostakovich, i havent enjoyed his music all that much but i woudlnt disrespect music that is considered great by many others whom i respect.

liszt was a truly great composer, and in certain ways one of the very greatest in history.

liszt pushed music forward light years, and its never innovation for the sake of innovation, always interesting and good music, and quite often truly great music.

i personally consider the 12 trancendental etudes musical masterpieces, and the sonata is perhaps objectively the greatest piano piece ever composed.

[ryguillian]

That's personal taste.

The sonata is perhaps objectively the greatest piano piece ever composed.

BoliverAllmon's distaste for Liszt is personal (subjective), but your taste for him is objective; interesting!

—Ryan

[stevie]

exactly

[pabst]

haha so far 'tis a tie between the sorabji-heads and the stevie-possy
let's see

[ramseytheii]

I don't dispute that Liszt was talented, but I just get sick of listening to glitter and double octaves. There's so much bombast even in his best works that seems pointless - his Petrarchan Sonnet 104 for instance - the piece is really interesting and is one of my favorites by him, but there are just some random runs that seems to contribute nothing but sparkle. Is Liszt fun to play? I'm sure he is, but I just don't think there's much meat in proportion to fluff.

About Sorabji - again, I never said he wasn't talented or worthy, but I DO think that he's overrated - it seems like a lot of people just want to hear people play the most difficult pieces simply because of the virtuosity required.

Concerning glitter in Liszt, according to a few sources I have read, students of his who kept records, he didn't want a lot of his virtuosic passagework to "glitter," in other words to be infused with a brilliant sound.  It is really tempting to play those passages in P.S. 104 () in such a way, but I think it is actually inappropriate to the piece, and may cause people to think there is just glitter and gloss (or "Flash and Trash," as I have heard it put before).  Apparently Liszt was extra particular about this in his Sonata, which may surprise many people.
Liszt's music has to be seen in these cases as descendant of Chopin's, whose virtuosic passagework is often a more languid, melancholy, dreamy, or whatever ornament, then a brilliant sparkle.

i agree about Sorabji.  The problem is that people get so defensive about him, they accuse those who don't like the music of not "understanding" it!

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

weburn.  no wonder he was shot.  (just kidding) 

[ahinton]

Concerning glitter in Liszt, according to a few sources I have read, students of his who kept records, he didn't want a lot of his virtuosic passagework to "glitter," in other words to be infused with a brilliant sound.  It is really tempting to play those passages in P.S. 104 () in such a way, but I think it is actually inappropriate to the piece, and may cause people to think there is just glitter and gloss (or "Flash and Trash," as I have heard it put before).  Apparently Liszt was extra particular about this in his Sonata, which may surprise many people.
Liszt's music has to be seen in these cases as descendant of Chopin's, whose virtuosic passagework is often a more languid, melancholy, dreamy, or whatever ornament, then a brilliant sparkle.

i agree about Sorabji.  The problem is that people get so defensive about him, they accuse those who don't like the music of not "understanding" it!

Walter Ramsey

This rekindling of old threads seems to be becoming almost as prevalent as the rebroadcasting of ancient repeats on UK television during the now (mercifully) just ended World Cup.

Liszt's music a "descendant" of Chopin's? They were almost contemporaries! In fact, it may well be worth bearing in mind that Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Alkan, Wagner, Verdi and Liszt were all born within around four years of one another.

On the other front, I - of all people - am simply not interested in "defending" the music of Sorabji, any more than I am in "defending" the music of those other seven composers I just mentioned. Why would I need to? We - and our music - all have to find our - and its - own levels. No composer writes his music with the expectation of having to defend - or have it defended - in some court; I'm sure that the composer Bernard van Dieren would most especially have understood and agreed this principle, given that he once wrote that "only this much is certain - that as no mother bears children to see them blown to rags or choked in poison gas, so no composer plans his works for the monstrous fate of falling into the conventional concert programme, to hang there like a soldier's body on the barbed wire".

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

weburn.  no wonder he was shot.  (just kidding)

No - not "just kidding" - also "just mis-spelling"...

Best,

Alistair