Academic skills essential for a pianist

[frederic]

What are some other skills we as pianist need? For example, would we need mathematics? Science? Important languages? Feel free to discuss

[rimv2]

What are some other skills we as pianist need? For example, would we need mathematics? Science? Important languages? Feel free to discuss

We dont need to count. LangLang is no biologist. Half the stuff written on sheet music are cognates ex: Attaca il presto con bravura

So all we need is half a brain

[sleepingcats]

So all we need is half a brain

I prefer both halves for piano:

the left brain for learning & analyzing the pieces, and the right brain for imagery & feeling.

[kriskicksass]

I like having both sides of my brain for piano playing too: the left half for controlling the right hand, and the right half for controlling the left hand. 

[zheer]

I believe in the theory that if you dont use it you lose it, so yeah a little bit.

[whynot]

An extremely interesting question.  I am not nearly as educated as I would like to be (still working on that), but I do think that the more we know--about anything, really:  people, history, languages, the world, history of music, art, architecture, landscapes of foreign lands--the more we bring to our understanding and playing of music.  So, essential?  I'm not sure, but useful:  absolutely.   Anything we are interested in, we should learn more about and grow as people, which shows up as growth as pianists.

 

[frederic]

yes i think this is a very interesting question. I am rather suprised that hardly anyone here have replied. But then again, they are too busy rattling on about the hardest piece in the world and the most impressive recordings they've heard.
This really does show who are the true artists and how are obviously not....

[gouldfischer]

A little bit of mathematical reasoning can be useful. I sometimes find it easier to learn certain rithms by decomposing each note into several of lesser duration.

Take, for instance, Fantasie Impromptu. You can of course learn the 3-notes-per-beat LH against 4-notes-per-beat RH just by "feeling" their musical interactions, or by simply being able to detach them to such an extent that dividing the beats by 3 with one hand does not affect your dividing the beat by 4 with the other. Another possibility would be to partition the beat into 12 parts (the minimum common multiple between 3 and 4) and them perceive which of these 1/12 sub-beats will have the LH play a note and which will have the RH. Then, after having figured out the exact moments where each individual note will be played, you start to practice and eventualkly will get the subjective hang of it, when you won't need to "calculate" any longer.

[donjuan]

As far as math goes, I certainly dont think that knowing integrals and multiple variable calculus will come in too handy..    although it stretches the brain and makes it angry (grrr I hate my math professor so much!)

Lets see... you should probably be able to read... maybe some italian or latin would help for reading the sheet music, but hey the meaning of the words in a musical context has changed so much, so you may just want to scratch my last statement.

Screw English class.  They spend a lot of time talking about things that suggest this or imply that... Nothing is too explicit, and even when you finally do understand what a piece of literature suggests, you say "ok, so what??"  I like reading and experiencing it, rather than sit in english class, tear it apart, and have the professor flog me to death with ideas that mean more to her than they do to me.

English professors waste a lot of time shooting off their mouths and in the end nothing is gained..  Sure doesnt do anything for music.  I love music because everything is right there in front of you.  No one is right or wrong and we can do whatever we want at the piano, no matter how ridiculous it is.  True, people chew you out if it doesnt seem like the sort of thing the composer would approve of, but people will still listen to you and take your work for what it is. (why lang lang still can give concerts and make money.. )  In english class, if I dont express profound approval of my professor's highly feminist position on an essay, well, ...i fail, easy as that. 

I think logic and psychology would be useful for the pianist to understand how the brain works and how we learn through music.  Often we have to solve little puzzles with fingering etc. so maybe playing chess would help develop logic (like in The Sims!).  Painting, woodworking, and sculpture are great too! 
donjuan

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

A very thoughtfull question indeed. A knowledge in poetry and art certainly helps interpretation. Many composers based their compositions on art, poems, etc. A familiarity with other arts embellishes your understanding of music.





Best Wishes to all.

[rimv2]

A little bit of mathematical reasoning can be useful. I sometimes find it easier to learn certain rithms by decomposing each note into several of lesser duration.

Take, for instance, Fantasie Impromptu. You can of course learn the 3-notes-per-beat LH against 4-notes-per-beat RH just by "feeling" their musical interactions, or by simply being able to detach them to such an extent that dividing the beats by 3 with one hand does not affect your dividing the beat by 4 with the other. Another possibility would be to partition the beat into 12 parts (the minimum common multiple between 3 and 4) and them perceive which of these 1/12 sub-beats will have the LH play a note and which will have the RH. Then, after having figured out the exact moments where each individual note will be played, you start to practice and eventualkly will get the subjective hang of it, when you won't need to "calculate" any longer.

Ah actually tried writing out and playing those twelve beats. Ah always got confused in the middle and never passed the first few bars

[jasons]

A little bit of mathematical reasoning can be useful. I sometimes find it easier to learn certain rithms by decomposing each note into several of lesser duration.

Take, for instance, Fantasie Impromptu. You can of course learn the 3-notes-per-beat LH against 4-notes-per-beat RH just by "feeling" their musical interactions, or by simply being able to detach them to such an extent that dividing the beats by 3 with one hand does not affect your dividing the beat by 4 with the other. Another possibility would be to partition the beat into 12 parts (the minimum common multiple between 3 and 4) and them perceive which of these 1/12 sub-beats will have the LH play a note and which will have the RH. Then, after having figured out the exact moments where each individual note will be played, you start to practice and eventualkly will get the subjective hang of it, when you won't need to "calculate" any longer.

I took this to an extreme when I first encountered x on y rhythms. Being a programmer by trade, I knocked up a quick app that would take the x and y numbers (e.g. 3 on 4, etc) and then flash colours and beep the compound rhythm.

I stopped using it after starring at a 7 on 8 long enough to give me a headache :p

Jason

[jlh]

I think that generally the more you understand about the world, the more experiences you have to draw upon in creating music. 

I wouldn't say that any academic discipline is detrimental to music, rather they tend to compliment one another on one level or another. 

Also, don't forget that the vast majority of pianists are also teachers, pedagogues, journal contributors, lecturers, etc.  Many of the people they teach, speak or write to are not musicians, but students of other disciplines.  The better you as a pianist/musician can relate to your audience, the more effective you will be in getting your point across.  Take language (such as English) as an example.  How can you expect to be taken seriously by audiences who judge by the words you use if you don't know how to use them properly?  If you write for a journal and use bad syntax, you will not be making friends out of editors for one thing; but their view of pianists will be one not of admiration, but rather it will give a negative impression of the rest of us.

Ok, that's my 3 thoughts for the day... off to bed.

Josh

[rc]

I could see any other field where you have to perform helping with piano; public speaking, acting, stand up comedy (If anyone has more pressure on them than a performing musician, it would be these guys!).

I like the idea of psychology and logic in learning. I've been trying to learn how to draw through a book that has the approach of using the right side of the brain, sometimes the author goes a little overboard in the relation, but I've learned some interesting things about the bilateral brain theory. I would agree that music uses a good bit of brainjuice from each side, wholebrain I've heard it called. This drawing book makes a good point that drawing is almost entirely a right-brain activity, while most of our daily activities are best suited for the left hemisphere (we're all using language right now). So I figure that drawing is a good way to get in touch with that neglected part of our minds.

I've only ever subdivided 3 over 4. Didn't have too much troubles, but really enjoyed the outcome. I haven't run into anything more complex than that yet, not sure how I'll handle that when I get there, my teacher said to just smoosh 'em together I can hardly wait. Used to do a little rhythmic exercise; setting the metronome to a nice slow beat and try clapping different amounts of pulses within the beat. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 claps/beat are simple enough. 5 ain't bad, 7 takes some time to make work, and I just plain couldn't get the rhythm of 9. Might be able to now though (3 groups of 3).

Interesting description of english class Donjuan, sounds about the same as grade school - the better you can conform to what the teacher wants, the better you're considered as a student. I'm planning on getting to university in 2 years (figure it'll take me that long to get good enough at piano), and am fairly suspicious of the academic world. Seems to me they often become a step removed from reality 'round there.

[donjuan]

Interesting description of english class Donjuan, sounds about the same as grade school - the better you can conform to what the teacher wants, the better you're considered as a student. I'm planning on getting to university in 2 years (figure it'll take me that long to get good enough at piano), and am fairly suspicious of the academic world. Seems to me they often become a step removed from reality 'round there.

ohhhh its terrible!!  English class is the only part of university that really hasnt changed at all since highschool.  Whenever my prof gets up and talks to the class, it just sounds like she is ranting in some sort of protest for women's rights.  Meanwhile, Im sitting in class thinking "F$#k b&*tch, leave it alone!!"  Because of the way these teachers are, you simply cant talk to them.  If I ask this prof a question, -any question- she gives me a nasty look as if I am about to start challenging her feminist beliefs. grrrrr

Math is bad too because many of the professors are arrogant and like to screw over the students on exams simply because they can.  They know that the only way they can possibly get fired is if they sexually harass someone.  So what's the result?  The professors stop working for the students.  My math prof seems to forget who he is talking to in class.  He just preoccupies himself with some complicated proof thats not even part of the course.  Most of the time, he just confuses himself and spends most of the class trying to find his own mistakes.  Oh, and by the time class is over, he quickly mentions something about the homework assignment due and if anyone needs help they can visit his office during his highly awkward office hours (most of the time he's not even there).  He doesnt check his email, and wont answer the phone.  This is so ridiculous!  These people are supposed to be payed for their vast knowledge and the openness of their minds, but instead they just get fat pensions for taking advantage of students.   
----
So yes, you are quite right in your suspicions of people in the academic world losing touch with reality.  For me, Music is my only escape from them. 
donjuan

[pianowelsh]

Good academic skills are essential from many professions. None more so than PIANO in particular.  The more diverse your academic skills the more you bring to your performance and the more the audience can take away from it too. So yes we need to be as all round as possible.

[g_s_223]

For some diplomas you have to write your own programme notes. So, you need good English (or whatever native language they are to be written in), plus good research skills to find out about the works.

[prometheus]

I don't really think those things are that important. After all your job is rather easy. Just play the notes that are already on paper. There is no real mental challenge.

But as a creating artist you should do everything to improve and expand your mental abilities.

[rc]

...So yes, you are quite right in your suspicions of people in the academic world losing touch with reality.  For me, Music is my only escape from them. 
donjuan

That's a shame. I remember Ted starting a thread not too long ago about the same thing, educated (otherwise) intelligent people squandering their talents like that. I'm sure it depends on the individual teachers, but there ought to be some sort of system in check of the absolute authority they have. I would be pissed if I was paying money out of my pocket and investing my time in order to deal with some jackoff loser.

Somewhat related, I'm always surprised at how intellectually minded people can often be socially retarded. My own little pet peeve

I consider myself warned.

[jlh]

I don't really think those things are that important. After all your job is rather easy. Just play the notes that are already on paper. There is no real mental challenge.

You've GOT to be kidding... "there's no mental challenge"?  as a pianist, you are not simply playing notes that are on paper, you are creating a musical experience, and yes it does require mental cognizance.  If you play just what's written, there's no reason to go listen to you play... any 13 year old with a computer can make a MIDI file of any piece of music and play it back on $10 speakers and call it music.  You have to study the music, study the technical and musical implications of what the composer was thinking about and wanting at the time of composition and then translate that into a musical performance that captures that essence of that composition.  It is not just black and white notes.

[prometheus]

You don't understand. I never said pieces can be played as a computer would play it. Interpretation is surely a subtle challenge. But nothing new is created. The mind isn't challenged. Most people say you have to feel instead of to think when they talk about the way to play a piece.

You don't need to know what the composer was thinking. That is irrelevant. And if it were true, it would reduce the thinking to an even lower level.

The point is, the amount of creativity needed to write a novel, write a piece of music is a vast amount greater than the creativity required to play a piece of music. There is no reasonable comparison. So I think that the effect of endulging into intellectual behavior for a mere pianist is negilectable. If it wouldn't then it would be essential to any auther or composer to train their minds, which I don't really believe because there always seem to be exceptions.

[gouldfischer]

The point is, the amount of creativity needed to write a novel, write a piece of music is a vast amount greater than the creativity required to play a piece of music. There is no reasonable comparison.

This is arguable, IMO. If I start to drop random notes on a blank sheet of paper, my mental labor, as a composer, will have been negligible. If you, on the other hand, manage to decipher and play that psychedelic piece, you'll deserve a brilliancy prize for sure.

[rc]

I don't know what we're doing differently, but learning and playing piano is quite the mental workout for me.

[frederic]

Maybe I should've chosen a better subject. Maybe it should've been "Knowledge that would assist a pianist"

[pianistimo]

this may sound funny - but of all the classes i've taken (and half forgotten because you have to keep repeating the info to remember it) i've learned most how to organize time and how to study something (to get more info).  these two items have helped me in my personal life immensely.  you learn how to divide up your time, stick to a schedule (hopefully), and finish a project (practice).  and, with learning more about the periodicals section and how to browse and peruse - you can start 'teaching yourself' by going and reading when you get a chance.

also, one of my prof's gave the class a handbook he had written on 'how to write a term paper' or similar title.  he gave all the details of punctuation and  perfection which most people try to get away with the least of - and told everyone to read it carefully.  this was one of the most helpful things i've been given in school - besides class knowledge.  when an instructor takes the time to help you express yourself professionally - it's really nice.  he also took us down to the music library and showed us exactly how to find and use primary and secondary sources.

i would say another lesser but still important function of being around academically minded people is behavior.  mine was not as serious minded at first as i needed to be.  with example, you can change your thought and behavior patterns from 'what's the minimum that needs to get done here' (grade oriented) to 'wow!  this is fun - i enjoy doing this for the sake of just studying and learning more about the subject.'  you end up doing much more work happily when you feel guided as to how to do it - and expectations high (not for grades - but for the personal growth of each student).

*i used to use the first copy (or second) of papers that i'd write.  with graduate work, you revise three and four times.  looking for logical flow.  that was my greatest weakness - because of going on tangents.  i didn't realize how bad it was until i learned that to write a good paper means narrowing down your thesis to precision ideas instead of wide open spaces.  i felt i could write more if i had a wide idea.  but, in actuality - instructors don't like to read 'fluff' at that point.  they want to see the gruelling work it took to find precise points that build up your thesis.  the reward is seeing someone read your paper and find it interesting or have strong agreement/disagreement.   

[gouldfischer]

Hi, pianistimo. What are your papers about? I mean, what have you studied?

Cheers,
     Vinicius.

[pianistimo]

'possible causes of beethoven's deafness,' 'changes made in the revised performance of the marriage of figaro with special reference to the new susanna in arias K 579 and K 577,' and 'what is an appropriate cadenza for a mozart piano concerto' (or something like that).  i have a stack of papers on various subjects that i studied and gleaned a lot of stuff in that classical music history class at west chester uni.  but, there were several students who had travelled to actual sites, and seen manuscripts, and taken photos.  one guy made a power point presentation that was A+++ and made the rest of us look like feather-weights, but that's ok.  it was neat to see what kinds of students come - and how they approach scholarship.  with a family - i don't have time or money to become a musicologist  like that, but i enjoy reading.

one of the more gruesome topics was 'what happened to mozart and haydn's heads.'  apparently they were used for study, and passed around like some kind of curio for awhile.

*will put the paper about the arias in misc. thread

[elspeth]

Surely what we're talking about here isn't so much about academia relating to music or piano playing as relating to life in general. Most people not working in an academic setting don't actually need many skills or much external information beyond basic maths and literacy and some specific job-related knowledge. You can live a full, useful, creative life having never really engaged your brain at all about anything that doesn't directly affect you.

The question is, what are you interested in and how do you want to pursue it? If your goal, in piano playing or anything else, is simply to do it to the best of your ability and to play it how it feels right to you, you need never seek knowledge beyond what you need - for piano, the ability to count to about 16, recognise symbols and then the manual skills of hitting the right keys in the right patterns will do fine. It works for a lot of people and some would argue that it makes you the best, most creative pianist you can be, even if you aren't sticking to the letter of the composer's intention.

I believe in setting a rather broader agenda, and besides reading include things like attending concerts or the theatre regularly to hear other musicians, and travelling to visit the places that inspired the things I'm interested in. I'm very lucky, via work, to be present at a couple of concerts or shows every week, and in the past I have played with, and run, a very good amateur orchestra. Hence I have a background in music and performance, and learned to appreciate other instruments and styles that I would never have considered otherwise.

Among other things, my academic background runs to a degree in physics, and one of the things I love about playing a piano, or any other instrument, is understanding the principles that create the sound, and that form the harmonies in the music.

Anybody with manual skills and a little basic knowledge can read music and play a piano. Or do brain surgery, by stretching the argument rather. What you need to develop either one beyond your own personal skill and interpretation is a frame of reference, and that means exploring the culture and literature of your chosen subject until you don't just perform but understand why and how you perform. There must always be direction and goals... if your only one in playing the piano is to play a particular piece, what are you going to do once you can? Will you just stop there and be satisfied, or will you look around you and discover the next particular piece, and the next...

Background knowledge in itself won't make you a better pianist, but it can help and inspire you to be one, and that's the true purpose of any learning.

[ted]

I can only answer this question for myself. If "academic" means musical study in an institution of education, then no, I do not think it will help me do what I want to do in piano music, and could well hinder it. If "academic" means any knowledge or understanding in any other subject regardless of where it is learned then, although neither necessary nor sufficient for my piano playing, this may well indirectly enhance the way I perceive music and therefore add to my enjoyment of it.

So it is more of a general question concerning the quality of life. While I could probably play the piano very well and remain ignorant of practically all else, it is not something I would choose to do. I choose to expand my understanding for the sake of understanding, not specifically because it might help me play the piano better.

[da jake]

Innate musical ability, and technical facility are all that are strictly required.

Anything else is a bonus.