Neuhaus and the thumb

[PaulNaud]

Another topic deals with the passing of the thumb when playing a scale. I would like to know what is Neuhaus opinion ? Does he talk about thumb-over technique?

Neuhaus also said that it's "quite usual and practical to pass the hand over the thumb than to pass the thumb under the hand."................"The major difficulty in playing a scale is the concern of the thumb that tends to break the rythm when hitting the key. The thing to do is to put the thumb prematurely at its right place, which means that it's prepared to play just in time."

[PaulNaud]

Is it true that for fast scales we use thumb-over technique as Mr Chuan C Chang said in his "Fundamentals of Piano Practice" ?
The thumb-under method works well for slow scales. This is confusing. There is a teacher in my music faculty who teaches this so-called thumb over technique.

[m]

The only time I can think I ever used the thumb-over is in Spanish Rhapsody, for very rapid scales (thumb after pinkie). For my hands I prefer very fast and flexible thumb, which as Neuhaus says: "to put the thumb prematurely at its right place".

Very much depends on individual hands construction. Most likely, thumb-over technique would use people with smaller hands. If it works for you--by all means.

[andhow04]

The only time I can think I ever used the thumb-over is in Spanish Rhapsody, for very rapid scales (thumb after pinkie). For my hands I prefer very fast and flexible thumb, which as Neuhaus says: "to put the thumb prematurely at its right place".

Very much depends on individual hands construction. Most likely, thumb-over technique would use people with smaller hands. If it works for you--by all means.

didnt chang argue that ppl DO use thumbs over whether they know it or not. i think its not true. cos i remember playing rachmaninoff op.42, variation 9, and i dont play it fast (not supposed to be fast to all u who play it fast), and i was doing thunb over, and it was sounding, um , bad. and then my teacher said, why dont u just bring ur thumber under your hand. and then it soudned good. simple i know, but simple & true. and i know i play fast also, thumb under, and have even sound, and dont mess up. i am just wiondering about those who argue, that ppl DO use thumbs over whether they know it or not.

[m]

rachmaninoff op.42, variation 9, and i dont play it fast (not supposed to be fast to all u who play it fast), and i was doing thunb over

No, it should not be fast--Allegretto (as marked) is just enough.

I have hard time finding where one could play thumb-over in that piece... unless doing something completely unnatural.

[andhow04]

No, it should not be fast--Allegretto (as marked) is just enough.

I have hard time finding where one could play thumb-over in that piece... unless doing something completely unnatural.

huh?  the one i am thinking of is marked, "Poco piu mosso," and has in the LH: low D octaves, then an octave higher two chords, and the RH, sixteenth note arpeggios/scales that go up, and need lots of thumbs under, and sometims back dowon. also i dont think any piece in rachmaninoff op 42 is marked allegretto?

[m]

huh?  the one i am thinking of is marked, "Poco piu mosso," and has in the LH: low D octaves, then an octave higher two chords, and the RH, sixteenth note arpeggios/scales that go up, and need lots of thumbs under, and sometims back dowon. also i dont think any piece in rachmaninoff op 42 is marked allegretto?

Yes, I was thinking of the next one Allegro Scherzando. Good example it is a good idea checking things first, and not relying on memory.

[demented cow]

The only time I can think I ever used the thumb-over is in Spanish Rhapsody, for very rapid scales (thumb after pinkie). For my hands I prefer very fast and flexible thumb, which as Neuhaus says: "to put the thumb prematurely at its right place".
Very much depends on individual hands construction. Most likely, thumb-over technique would use people with smaller hands. If it works for you--by all means.

In several older threads discussing the thumb-under method vs. 'thumb-over' several people say that one can't do really fast scales & arpeggios using thumb-under. Therefore I found Marik's comments interesting.
Two questions:
1. (Mainly addressed to people with a fairly advanced technique): How many of you never or hardly ever use thumb-over?
2. Have any of you managed to learn thumb-over when you had been playing only thumb-under for a long time?
I ask because I find thumb turns to be a big source of speed walls and inaccuracy. I have used only thumb-under in my 15 year 'career' as an amateur, and was wondering whether to invest time and patience trying to learn thumb-over.
It seems to me that one has to have fast thumb turns anyway because there are passages where there's no possibility of doing thumb over and where fast thumb turns are needed (e.g. the left hand passage about a page into the Preambulum of Bach's G major Partita that goes D5 * D1 C2 D1 E2 D1 C2 D1  B3 D1 B3 A4 G5 etc. (* means 'go up an octave' and numbers after notes represent fingerings).
I am at a level where I can sometimes (sort of) make music out of hardish pieces (e.g. Chopin Ballades, the easier Liszt etudes), but my lousy thumb technique spoils a lot of passages, esp. fast lefthand downward scales.