Reading Renaissance vocal music

[amanfang]

If I'm reading a Renaissance vocal work, and at the very beginning it shows an alto clef (for example) but then is shown on a treble clef, do I read the pitches as if they were in the treble clef or the alto clef?  I was assuming that I read in treble and the editor transcribed it to the treble even though it was originally written for alto.  is that right?

[rc]

I would probably read it in the new clef. Does it sound right?

I don't believe they changed clefs at that time, but don't know for sure.

[amanfang]

It makes more sense to read it in the treble and bass clefs.  But when I asked my theory teacher he said they had not transposed it into the new clef.  But it just seems to make more sense to play it in the treble and bass.  Perhaps he didn't completely understand my question.  Here's a link to the score.

https://arnoldr.zingt.nl/PDF/Palestrina-Kyrie-1.pdf

I probably should have included this in my initial post.

[rc]

Wow, that is pretty strange to see. Well, I'm still thinkin' that originally Palestrina wouldn't have used only bass and treble clefs, that must have been a later addition of the editor. It looks to me like the notes should be played as read, with the treble clefs.

What's really strange to me are the O's between the two rows of clefs, and those brackets that're in the treble clefs for the tenor voices.

I'm really not sure, this is pretty odd. Would be curious to find out from someone who knows.

[amanfang]

I think the circles are time signatures, but I don't what they are or how they relate to each other.

[Tash]

my guess would be that the clefs and little circles are what palestrina originally wrote- the circles are the time signature i think, i read something like that somewhere, but i'll take the assumption that they mean cut common time since that's what it is next... the editor has obviously changed clefs and time signature times to make it more readable for people who don't read alto and tenor clefs. so then the tenor parts are just sung an octave lower and the alto is sung as written in the treble
if still in doubt, play exactly what's written and see if it's the same as the recording!

[westley]

Tash is right . .  this is definently supposed to be played in the "new" (treble and bass) clefs, the editor just wrote out  the "old" clefs to show what palestrina used. 

Also, if you read in the "old" clefs, the soprano enters at an interval of a seventh relative to the alto . . . not likely!

[g_s_223]

The term "treble clef" isn't exactly right when applied to the tenor voice. This is a "G" clef which sounds an octave below what is written, unlike the true treble G clef which sounds at the pitch notated. Nowadays the symbol usually used is a G clef with a little 8 at the bottom as per https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texto/Octavetrebleclef.html .

Note the term "tenor clef" means something entirely different again.

[Bob]

I'm agreeing with the others.  Must be Palestrina first, then the editor.

Go with what is right harmonically.

I'm guessing those extra lines on the G clefs for the tenor are to show it sounds down an octave from written.

The cirlces.... I remember reading the circle was supposed to represent the Trinity -- Father, Son, Mary... something like that.  But it meant 3.  A broken circle was four (I think).  So, you take the broken circle, cut it in half and you have alla breve or cut time.  That's what I remember anyway.  And then there's something about the tempo and what would be felt as the beat.  (brain hurts from thinking)  I'm pretty sure the circle is some type of time signature, but I don't know what exactly.

[abell88]

The cirlces.... I remember reading the circle was supposed to represent the Trinity -- Father, Son, Mary... something like that.  But it meant 3.  A broken circle was four (I think).  So, you take the broken circle, cut it in half and you have alla breve or cut time.  That's what I remember anyway.  And then there's something about the tempo and what would be felt as the beat.  (brain hurts from thinking)  I'm pretty sure the circle is some type of time signature, but I don't know what exactly.

I'm pretty sure you're right, Bob...although the Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[whynot]

The arm-like brackets coming out of the treble clefs in the tenor lines show where middle C is.  What a great piece, I love singing Palestrina. 

[amanfang]

so are saying that the tenor 2 line starts on a?

[Tash]

no it starts on the g below middle c- they've made it so easy to read you don't need to think about any clef except your regular treble and bass