Tempo of Chopin Etudes

[iumonito]

I am working these days on Op. 25 ## 2, 10 and 12.  The tempo markings in the Paderewski edition (Dover) seem to me unmusically fast (half-note 112 for the F Minor, half-note 72 and dotted half-note 42 for the B Minor and half-note 80 for the C Minor).

I suspect these tempo markings are either not Chopin's, or that there is some riddle to be solved here.  I am cognizant that Chopin's Pleyel was lighter and less resonant that most modern pianos, but I am not talking here about ease of play or even pedaling, as that is not the point.  The etudes are entirely playable at these speeds, it just that there is no time to savor them.

I think I like the F minor at around 84 - 92, the B Minor at no faster than 66 the fast section and around 32 for the slow section, and the C minor at 52 - 63.

I wonder whether you know of any basis to choose a tempo for these works.  For example, I am particularly interested in comentary from people who have other editions, such as Bulow (sorry, no umlaut handy) Kullak or Riemann.

[jlh]

I am working these days on Op. 25 ## 2, 10 and 12.  The tempo markings in the Paderewski edition (Dover) seem to me unmusically fast (half-note 112 for the F Minor, half-note 72 and dotted half-note 42 for the B Minor and half-note 80 for the C Minor).

I suspect these tempo markings are either not Chopin's, or that there is some riddle to be solved here.  I am cognizant that Chopin's Pleyel was lighter and less resonant that most modern pianos, but I am not talking here about ease of play or even pedaling, as that is not the point.  The etudes are entirely playable at these speeds, it just that there is no time to savor them.

I think I like the F minor at around 84 - 92, the B Minor at no faster than 66 the fast section and around 32 for the slow section, and the C minor at 52 - 63.

I wonder whether you know of any basis to choose a tempo for these works.  For example, I am particularly interested in comentary from people who have other editions, such as Bulow (sorry, no umlaut handy) Kullak or Riemann.

The Paderewski is a very good edition.  I have found that the MM markings are entirely playable, and if you play them properly, they don't lose their musicality at those tempos.  Bear in mind that they're not Barcarolles, but Etudes, and Romantic Etudes at that.  Flair is important here, but you also must muster a great deal of emotion to pull them off.  There's a fine balance, but I do believe that it's possible to do this at the tempos indicated.  I always use the Paderewski edition if possible.

[zheer]

In my chopin Edition, one which i bought as a child, i have 200 crochet beats per minut for the f minor, 116 crochet beats per minut for the b minor and 120 crochet beats per minut for the c minor. In all honesty you should use your own tempo based on true musicall intentions, it will make you more intresting.

[bearzinthehood]

In 25/2 the 112 tempo marking seems a bit at odds with the molto legato.  I don't think it's too challenging to blast off really fast in this etude, especially if you intend to use the Paderewski fingering, but getting the legato sound at that tempo I suppose is the "etude" part of this etude.  Then again, I suppose the Chopets are only as hard as you make them, but why make it easier when the piece is there to teach you something?

[iumonito]

The Paderewski is a very good edition.  I have found that the MM markings are entirely playable, and if you play them properly, they don't lose their musicality at those tempos.  Bear in mind that they're not Barcarolles, but Etudes, and Romantic Etudes at that.  Flair is important here, but you also must muster a great deal of emotion to pull them off.  There's a fine balance, but I do believe that it's possible to do this at the tempos indicated.  I always use the Paderewski edition if possible.

Do you know whether the tempo marking is Chopin or Paderewski's?

I am doing Chopin's fingering, which in the Paderewski edition are marked in italics.

I can give you more examples of absurdly fast tempos, start at the begining.  144 is way too fast for the musical content of Op. 10 # 1.

More facts, please.

P.S. Zhee, I agree.  Thanks.  Do you know what edition it is?

[bearzinthehood]

Do you know whether the tempo marking is Chopin or Paderewski's?

I am doing Chopin's fingering, which in the Paderewski edition are marked in italics.

I can give you more examples of absurdly fast tempos, start at the begining.  144 is way too fast for the musical content of Op. 10 # 1.

I believe you have the markings exactly backwards, that is, Chopin's fingerings are marked in ordinary type and Paderewski's fingerings are marked in italics.  Furthermore, it is not entirely clear that Paderewski's scholarship is accurate, as it contains fingerings attributed to Chopin that are not attributed to Chopin in Henle.  At any rate, fingerings have an impact on the sound, both in terms of phrasing and in terms of the perception of a "beat" and are not to be taken lightly.

As for the tempi, I agree that they are difficult.  Whether they are too fast for the musical content is debatable.  These etudes are, in my mind, a journey and not a destination.  Therefore I believe it is imperative to follow all markings that can be attributed to Chopin, but to also realize that beginning each etude is embarking on a journey that may take a very long time to complete.

Some other points that I believe are to be considered sound like excuses, and in my mind they are excuses, but they are important to understand nonetheless.  The first is that Chopin (famously) used extensive rubato when performing.  I believe that the tempo should be dictated by the artistic vision of the performer, not the difficulty of the music.  Also, there has been some talk about the pianos that Chopin used.  IIRC both the weight of the keys and the effectiveness of the dampers of pianos in Chopins time were different, perhaps facilitating finger legato and speed.

BTW, I believe the marked tempo for 10/1 is 176.

[zheer]

P.S. Zhee, I agree.  Thanks.  Do you know what edition it is?

 Aha , its EDITION PERTERS Nr. 1907. I actually like the 144 bmt for op 10 num1 its in good taste , i will try it tommoro morning. For a strange reason i have this etude marked at 104 crotchet beats per minut in my edition.

[g_s_223]

You need a new edition: Henle is good. Op.10 No.1 is MM=176 in the original editions.

[iumonito]

Yes, yes, 176.  I was doing 144 from memory without the score.  144 is around the tempo I like, 176 is what is marked.

Who is the editor of the Peters?

[iumonito]

I believe you have the markings exactly backwards, that is, Chopin's fingerings are marked in ordinary type and Paderewski's fingerings are marked in italics.  Furthermore, it is not entirely clear that Paderewski's scholarship is accurate, as it contains fingerings attributed to Chopin that are not attributed to Chopin in Henle.  At any rate, fingerings have an impact on the sound, both in terms of phrasing and in terms of the perception of a "beat" and are not to be taken lightly.

As for the tempi, I agree that they are difficult.  Whether they are too fast for the musical content is debatable.  These etudes are, in my mind, a journey and not a destination.  Therefore I believe it is imperative to follow all markings that can be attributed to Chopin, but to also realize that beginning each etude is embarking on a journey that may take a very long time to complete.

Some other points that I believe are to be considered sound like excuses, and in my mind they are excuses, but they are important to understand nonetheless.  The first is that Chopin (famously) used extensive rubato when performing.  I believe that the tempo should be dictated by the artistic vision of the performer, not the difficulty of the music.  Also, there has been some talk about the pianos that Chopin used.  IIRC both the weight of the keys and the effectiveness of the dampers of pianos in Chopins time were different, perhaps facilitating finger legato and speed.

BTW, I believe the marked tempo for 10/1 is 176.

I stand corrected, the notes in the back indicate that Chopin's fingerings are in roman and Paderweski's in italics.  I'll check out the Henle re fingerings, as I will have to re-think what's going on there.

Thanks.

[etudes]

try Jan Ekier edition!! i think its a best edition for chopin at this moment (for quite proper tempo and some suggest fingering and pedal)