Duets

[keyofc]

I'm teaching a duet to some kids.  They are fine alone on their part, but when they are together it's really hard for them to sync up.
They're getting better, but the challenge is still obvious.
Anyone have some different ways they have overcome the challenges in teaching a duet?  SPecifically - when one is faster and the other slower. 
thanks
Helen

[pianistimo]

you probably set the beat for them, or have one or the other establish it at the beginning by whisper counting the first few beats (2, 3, 4 and... or 1, 2, ready, play) 

but, if one is continually faster than the other - you might have to help them along by telling them to listen to one another for the beat.  surprisingly, they may be concentrating on the sightreading and mostly just trying to get through their parts.

i wonder if they should just take small sections and learn them really well.  then they can play the sections together (as many times as it takes) and coordinate everything from rhythm, to imitation of sounds, lengths of notes, rests, etc.

also, occasionally interjecting some advice by sitting down and playing one part and then the other doesn't single out one student over another.  one may be a better sight reader, and the other may play well by ear?  when you give little bits of advice to each, then they know that they each have something to work on (and the faster one isn't necessarily the best).

[pianistimo]

you know, i just thought of an idea.  i don't know if it will work, but it could.  have one of the students play very soft and be sort of the 'follower.'  then have the other one do it.  this ensures that they have to listen to the other part as much or more than their own. 

[galonia]

Can you get them both to count aloud while they are playing together?  That usually helps.  Once they get used to it, then the counting can be whispered, and after a while, they don't have to count aloud at all.

Some partnerships just don't work out - I taught a pair of sisters once, and they said they wanted to play duets, but when they came together, it was non-stop bickering and blaming - my mother asked me why I was shouting at my students, and I had to tell her I didn't say a word!  It was the two girls!

But in general, duets and ensemble work are an excellent way to develop students' listening skills.

[stephane]

I never did anything like that but what about a metronome?

Kind regards,

Stephane

[timothy42b]

This I think illustrates one of the ways piano lessons are unique.

It is so rare for two pianists to have the chance to play together, and also to learn to play with and interact with another musician.  Outside of piano this is the way most music is made.  Even beginners in their first week of clarinet or guitar are playing with others and learning how. 

I don't think there is any magic to this, and it isn't as difficult as making the left and right hands work together, but it does take some time and persistence to learn it.  Once learned it stays with fairly well. 

I would not use the metronome, that usually makes it worse.  I would try simplifying the parts so they can listen to each other, I would make them sing duets, and I would try conducting some very simple duet parts.  You are teaching the separate skill of "playing with," so you don't want the piano technique getting in the way. 

This week I tried playing a duet with myself.  I was trying to learn some new software for recording MIDI from my keyboard.  I recorded one hand, then did the other hand as a duet with the playback.  That meant I had to adjust to any rhythmic inaccuracies, mistakes, or even intentional rubato that I'd done the first time through.  There is a world of difference between selfpaced performance and real time performance where you MUST stay with.  Of course live you have the advantage you can see the other person's motions.

[abell88]

I agree with timothy that simpler is better...I give duets that are well below my students' playing levels -- that way they can more easily concentrate on listening to each other. Also,  if they have trouble with tempo I count aloud for them...if they cannot play it at the tempo I choose something is wrong! (Usually it's the one who can play it faster who finds it very hard to slow down -- showing that they don't have true mastery of the piece.)

[Astyron]

This won't help you as much right now, but might in the future...

I play as many duets as possible with my students.  They get used to hearing me play with them (and some of the little-kid method books have a lot of teacher duets in them) right away.  I teach even the littlest kids how to start with a breath in tempo, and how to do a cut off at the end with a dip of the wrists.  They can't play with other kids yet, but they do well being both leader and follower doing duets with me, as long as they're used to doing it often (I do them at almost every lesson). 

Somethings you could try now...

Make them clap their respective parts and count out loud.  This takes the focus off right notes and puts it solely on rhythm and timing which is the issue.

Have one play their part, the other clap and count their part out loud, and declare one the leader that sets the tempo.  Then switch who leads, or switch who claps/plays.  Do all the different variations of leading/clapping/playing.

Young children through middle school aged kids enjoy games so make listening and following carefully a game with some reward(s).  Challenge them to listen and follow whoever the leader is.   Stickers are a great motivator for the young.

Generally speaking, when it comes to kids playing together, I too give duets that are just a hair below their normal playing level.  If it's a duet with me, they play at their level.

Astyron

[keyofc]

Thanks for all your great ideas everyone - about the duets.
It was too late to use them for my last recital which, by the way, miraculously worked out!
But I will use these ideas now to help them get more prepared for their next duet.
I had a girl and boy - and told the boy to slow down for the girl.  When she heard that, she must have went home and practiced an awful lot.  Because the next time she was faster.  Which of course messed him up at first.  It was quite a challenge - but I had them over just about every day in order for them to be able to be in the recital.

[ingagroznaya]

Oh, Keyofc.
I was reading this thread and hoped you don't prepare it for a recital. Congratulation on your miracle! Sincerely.
Once, I tired to get a little sister to prepare a duet with her older brother ( who was not all that old at a time ). It was the most difficult thing we went through. After so much hard work, everything was aligned to One tempo and stayed there for about two weeks. At the recital, little girl somehow skipped a beat in the very beginning.

...On a beautiful bosendorfer, a hall-room full of people... they continued to play their parts PERFECTLY without missing a beat ....all the way... of course she stayed a quarter note behind 
It was the most disturbing performance I have ever witnessed. The piece seemed never-ending at a time.

[timothy42b]

What a great story about the one beat off duet.  I think it illustrates a stage of learning.

I remember that when I was trying to learn to sing parts in choir, the other voices would distract me.  I learned to concentrate on my own part and sing it correctly, mostly by tuning out or ignoring the other parts.  But much later, I learned to listen to the other parts and this made it easier to sing my own, instead of harder. 

It sounds like that duet team had made it to step 2 but needed to get to step 3.