psychoanalyse & piano

[drooxy]

Hello all,

I am 43 years old and for many personnal and professionnal reasons, I am thinking of starting something like a "psychoanalyse" with a professionnal...

I wonder if such a work on myself can bring something positive to my piano playing also (self confidence for example...?)...

Any idea ?

Thanks ! 
Drooxy

[pianistimo]

from my perspective, even psychoanalysts are human, therefore come from a point of view (whether given or not) and basically have the ability to ask you questions that perhaps you hadn't posed yourself before.

i say, find a really smart piano teacher.  they will ask you the same questions about music.  then, you go home and turn the questions on yourself.  'what does that phrase mean to you?'  'what do you mean to that phrase?'  after a while, you and the piano will be one. 

ask your piano teacher a lot of questions - but don't ask 'do you think i should see a psychoanalyst?'  that is because musicians in general are crazy.  everyone knows that!  i mean - if we were sane - we'd think of a better profession to make money.  we would die for music.  we need music to live.  music makes us 'feel better.'  how many people do you personally know that want to know all the details about composers?  there's something wrong with us.

unless you are experiencing violent outbursts or something - i'd drink green tea and practice a lot.  that always makes me feel better.  (oh, and prayer.  for me, it solves the deepest longings and questions - even if a solution doesn't seem to be in sight right away.  i just wait for it.  after all, there is a parable about a judge and a widow - and she kept bugging him day after day for a solution to her problem - finally he gave in because she kept asking him.  God will get to us.  we just have to wait our turn).

[rc]

Claudio Arrau recommended psychoanalysis for musicians. He underwent quite a bit of it throughout his life, and said it directly affected his playing, removing psychological barriers and such.

I like to read about psychology out of interest myself, and apply some of it to my life. I like to think it's been useful. The more I come along, the more I see how everything in a persons life is connected, so anything someone does to improve their life will affect learning piano. I imagine sorting out important issues with therapy would make a noticable difference.

If you try it, I'd be interested to hear if it's had any effect on music!

[lostinidlewonder]

I think a lot of piano study has to do with motivation. How we motivate ourselves to sit down and practice the hours away. If we can some how relate our music to some deep psychological emotion within us I could see how we could use that to drive our ambition.

I think music to me gives meaning to my life, it also protects me from a lot of things. I think the human requires to know that they are individual and different from other people around them. If we have this with us then we can be protected from a lot of psychological problems such as depression. To me I can find meaning of a lot of things we face in this life such as death, love, God, sadness, fear etc. I can find these emotions in the music that I play and hear. I think if the human is allowed to experience negative emotions by command through music, when "bad things" happen to us, we have a channel to pour the pain and suffering we feel through the music, instead of bottling it within ourselves. This is such a pressure relief, and escape, a way to shout out in the world and express your emotion or life changing memory.

I feel this "healing" power of music every time I do anything musical, whether it is teaching, learning,  playing or listening. I feel a connection to God, which I think gives comfort to death, the ultimate pain that faces all people.

I can spend hours just playing "randomly" on the keyboard, improvisations to me is the ultimate form of making music. Something that will never be played again or heard again. I might during an improvisation hear something I wished I had copied down, but I will never know the exact sequence of notes which where done to produce it, the memory is there but it is lost forever. I guess this is like losing things in life. Humans do not want to experience loss but it happens, it's unavoidable and causes a lot of psychological illness. This musical loss I experience every time I improvise I think has some deep impact on me. It sounds really strange writing this out though lol.

[pianistimo]

this is just a bizarre thought i had tonight, but what if a person really wanted to mess with a pianists mind.  i mean, what if they stole their piano?  would it be the same panic strickenness as one who goes out into a parking lot to find their car towed away or stolen?  what would be the reaction of someone losing their piano?

and, then, what would happen if all the music was stolen at the same time?  you couldn't find a stitch of music and thought you might have to buy it all over again.  and, all your cd's were gone. 

how bad of a depression would that cause?

now - think of the other extreme:

someone takes your old piano and replaces it with a steinway B or some piano you've been dreaming of.  adds to your collection of music and cd's.  and, gives you contract for carnegie hall.

somehow being in the middle makes me feel sort of average.  like i haven't got any feelings.  just day to day.

speaking of average - i wonder how many budding pianists (and longtime amateurs) have illusions of grandeur.  i still think i will make it onto the concert stage and be a roaring success - because i haven't heard anything to the contrary.  and, even if i did, i would still think it possible.  anything's possible, unless you're dead, right!? 

[whynot]

A good therapist or counselor can help you to realize profound truths about yourself and your life, and help you to break down all kinds of barriers.  This is extremely relevant to your music-making.  If you have an inkling at all to do see someone, that probably means you're ready to face certain things and really grow.  Good luck!

[cora]

In response to Drooxy, there is only one way to find out and that's try it and see. But I'd like to present you with two further ideas. Is it possible that your playing could go downhill because of the psychoanalysis? Or could improving your piano playing help you with your psychological challenges?

Personally, I think psychoanalysis is bunk. I've tried it, but I think the best changes in people come when they are willing to leave their selfishness and do something for others. Psychoanalysis is all about validating you and your choices. It feeds into our "me culture". Psychologists aren't likely to tell you your feelings are wrong. And I believe feelings can be wrong, and they often are.

They also don't encourage you to make superhuman efforts for anybody else even though that may be what it takes to stay in your marriage, for instance. They see calling on a "higher power" as a nice adjunct to what they do but God is the only one who can really help us. So calling on Him is an absolute necessity. You can be totally dependent on God. Try being totally dependent on your psychologist. (Remember the movie, What about Bob?)

So, my advice is to see your psychologist if you're depressed or worse, but otherwise, keep enjoying the piano, and maybe find a piano teacher mentor who will take over your life! (Mine tried to! )

[pianistimo]

agreed with cora, personally!

something i notice about most really good piano teachers is that they are usually a great example of helping others.  they give you a lot of leeway in music preferences the more lessons you take and sometimes your own choice of music can help you feel happier - and also, practicing it.  taking control.  making your life your own. 

most piano teachers, imo, are there to help you with your musical life and God is there to help you with your spiritual life.  i didn't mean that you should become dependent on your piano teacher for everything (even if students sometimes do - out of respect and love).  really, cora is right about keeping your spiritual life with God because He is ultimately the one that gives us 'strength.'  physical strength, mental strength, and spiritual strength in His Word.  your piano teacher helps you with your talents.

[whynot]

Prayer and piano.  Interesting.  Does anyone believe that a person who's been raped should NOT talk to some kind of trained professional?  They should only talk to God and practice their piano lesson?  How about someone being abused in a marriage?  Someone who's lost all ability to sleep and become desperate?  Someone with a terrible childhood in a troubled family, in all the ways that that happens?  Someone who struggles with overeating, overdrinking, inappropriate sex?  Someone who has become extremely angry for no apparent reason?  No one deserves to receive professional advice and help for these things?  Do people believe this is wrong??

There are life skills that parents are suppposed to pass on but often don't, that people can learn in therapy.  There are important observations that only an uninvolved person can sometimes see, particularly when trained to see them--observations that can change a person's life.  There are many perspectives on life and relationships to be offered by someone who has spent a lot of time exploring them.  Why is anybody against that?

Some personal problems are caused by selfishness, but many are not.  A problem caused by selfishness could be relieved by unselfish acts.  But to state that God is the only one who can help us when we're in trouble is to negate your own comment about the importance of helping others.  Why should we help anyone else when God is the only one who can really help anyone?  If you break your leg, are you a bad Christian if you go to the doctor?  If the doctor is Christian, does that mean he shouldn't set your leg because he knows that God will fix it?  This is faulty logic, and it induces guilt and shame in people who may be seeking help for all kinds of problems.  

[cora]

God works through people to help us. So it is possible that a psychotherapist could be that person. As I stated, if you are depressed or worse, consider continuing to see your psychologist.  Worse could include the scenarios you mentioned.

By your own logic, a person seeking psychotherapy could not be induced to feel shame or guilt, (especially not by one lone internet poster), because the psychotherapist would point out, or observe, that you shouldn't feel shame in seeking help. Scepticism, maybe.

But I am not convinced that psychotherapy is of much use. Take for instance feeling angry for no reason. Studies have shown that talking about your anger only makes you more angry. (In addition, when I was interested in going for anger management counselling, all the classes were at times when I work, which made me angry.)

A lot of women are very angry nowadays and they need to be told that a lot of feminist beliefs are a dead-end road. Do you think that many of today's trained psychotherapists would touch that one with a ten-foot pole? Never forget that psychotherapy is a business. If people became happy en masse, psychotherapists would be out of a job!

The issue was never one of who deserves counselling. (A red herring.)

As to your question, why is anyone against this?

1) Because people are entitled to hold a different view from the mainstream view. What I'm saying is there have to be measurable results from counselling. In one study, they had trained professionals and ordinary people posing as psychotherapists. The ones who were rated the highest by the clients were those perceived to be most empathetic, which had nothing to do with their training.

Do people believe this is wrong?

2) I'm not saying it's wrong for somebody to pay their money and get help. I'm just saying they likely won't get the help they think they will, in my opinion. 

In my case, I'm much happier telling my problems to a friend than a professional.  Friends are cheaper and they can take you out and cheer you up. Don't underestimate the extent of my problems either.

We have to have more faith in God than whynot is suggesting. He can part the ocean, he can cure the blind, he can save a marriage. What can God not do?

[pianistimo]

agreed this time with both of you.  when you have serious issues - i would suggest a christian counselor or someone who will give you a perspective of right and wrong choices.  our lives are blessed and cursed according to what we do as well as what we might overlook. 

women who are raped are often, but not always, in a bad location alone - and not with enough friends or family.  even going to the store late at night is a bad idea, nowdays, imo.  maybe old-fashioned, but i think also that being naive is something to overcome by taking a self-defense class and being aware of your environment. 

in terms of everything mentioned, there's always a choice involved somewhere - from what we wear, to how we think, and what our own motives are.  if we go to God for help with our own problems, then we can start to begin to help others when our problems are healed.  often, there are hurts that no psychologist can begin to heal.  hurt involves forgiving the person - or family - or husband or wife. 

and, then also there is the problem of  scheduling mentioned.  God is always available to hear our problems, whereas, for me - the one time i really needed a counselling session (i thought) there was no opening for two weeks.  besides being angry, it made me realize that in reality, all of us are responsible for how we react to problems.  we can give up, or give our problems up (since they are bigger than we can handle) to God.  when you let go of the past - it frees you into the future.

[whynot]

Well, I'm not going to fight over what people believe.  But there have been conclusions drawn that I find inexplicable.  "By my own logic," a therapist wouldn't make a client feel guilt and shame?  Did I say they would?  The whole point escapes me. 

The caution about many rape victims being alone in a bad location--I don't know what that has to do with getting professional help for it.  Is this to say that a person should have prevented it somehow? 

Have I suggested that anyone not have faith in God, or not much faith?

It has been stated that it's in the best interests of psychotherapists not to help their patients be happy, because they'll be out of a job.  By the same logic, doctors wouldn't want patients to heal, teachers wouldn't want students to learn, mothers wouldn't want their babies to grow up.   

Healing a hurt does not always involve forgiving someone.  Sometimes there's no one to forgive, and other times forgiveness is not possible, not because of a refusal to forgive, but because the conditions of real complete forgiveness are specific and some situations don't allow for it.  Ask a person of Jewish faith about this.  I would outline it, but I think it could start a fight, and I'm not looking for one. 

I wish the original poster the best of luck, whatever you decide.   

[rc]

I should know better but...

Not everyone is religious, and not everyone believes in the same God. Talking about God is excluding those outside your faith.

Now, by what I understand of psychology, it's a pretty wide field with a multitude of different theories. There are probably quacks out there, but the whole idea is to help people with their troubles one way or another. Someone who spends their life helping people would probably bring valuable insight that a regular friend could not. Ultimately, change is up to the individual, just as learning falls in the hands of the student. Wherever it comes from, it's up to us whether we take the advice we're given or not.

[drooxy]

I am very surprised that my question turns to a religious debate indeed... Actually, I do not believe in a God but I believe in Love (imo, "God" is a for too confusing notion that makes people fighting against each other just because "their" God does not go by the same name... whereas the values behind are basically the same).

Love is universal... everybody knows what it is about and everybody feels that it is a pure and positive feeling on which one can build strong and great things... At the extreme opposite, hatred has never led anybody anywhere... History is rich of examples of that nature !

There are many very interesting ideas in all the answers I received and I want to thank you for your interest in my question !

I believe that, ultimately, playing the piano should be based on Love... or, at least, say, altruism... not on personnal challenging and "show off attempt"... But that activity is so demanding and you have to make so much effort to get a result that when it comes to playing in front of people, it is difficult to put your "proudness" (could not be the best word but I am sure you get the idea !) aside...

Because, to me,  this is not only true for piano playing, it is one of the things I would like to work on while doing this psychoanalyse... Giving to people for the sheer pleasure of giving... Now, because I know some people who have done it, I know that one of the master words of psychoanalyse is "you are the most important person for yourself" which, I am afraid, goes a little against the notion of altruism...

I am not sure that what I am saying really makes sense... but at least I tried with my limited english vocabulary !

Thanks again for all your ideas and wishes !

All the best !
Drooxy

[pianistimo]

imo, God IS love.  we can't get it out of ourselves.  we were born selfish. 

but, i respect your philosophies.  our motives for playing the piano - if truly altruistic - would be to glorify our Creator.  Our nemesis, Satan (lucifer), was an angel of incredible beauty and musical talents.  They are mentioned in various places of the Bible -

so, we, in effect - with music are going into our own 'garden of eden.'  What we choose to do with the knowledge is up to us.  If we use it to be self-serving - or use it for the benefit of others. 

a certain amount of 'competitition' seems to help younger students if it is not intense - but, teachers have a huge role to play in fairness in this aspect (esp. with younger students).  As you get older, you realzie that winning a competition isn't as important as learning something. 

probably, as with love, when you learn to 'let go' - your music becomes freer and you aren't worried about the audience or the things that can go wrong, but just enjoy the music and the moment.   

[drooxy]

imo, God IS love

I was expecting that answer... so what about us ALL calling "him" "Love" ? So many misunderstandings and conflicts between people would surely suddenly disappear...

Might be too late now, though... 

[pianistimo]

i think you're right!  too much fighting over religion and in His name.  of course, people fight over other things, too, like territory, money, and power.  Satan used that to tempt Christ on the mountain (i'll give you all these things if you worship me) - so why wouldn't he use the same tactics on us?  If people can get things by taking advantage of others, they do.  imo, the only way to fight our selfish natures is to take up a battle with ourselves.  if we don't feel like doing something, we might have to do it anyway.  for instance, my mom and i don't always get along - but we used to do things to purposely irritate each other.

lately, we've both been trying to do nice things for each other and pray for each other.  i'm also terrible when it comes to writing, but i've been trying to e-mail her more often.  sometimes once a good habit is established then it's easier than being in a sort of 'rut.'  you just do what you always did.  i've noticed in my life that God sometimes takes an awfully long time to answer certain prayers, and others are fairly immediate.  usually it's the problems you want an immediate answer to that take the longest.  for me, it was getting along with my family.  i wanted them to understand me better.  finally, i just realized that maybe i needed to understand my mom better - so i'd really listen to her - instead of tuning her out.  and, to be kinder and more patient.  of course, now - i have a daughter and she's tuning me out sometimes - so i get it from both sides.  anyway, maturity seems to be in being able to give when you don't really want to at first, and then enjoying the process of learning to derive joy from other people's happiness in a deeper way.