Simple Rhythm/Counting Question

[landru]

I am a beginner with over 20 years of self-taught bad habits which my piano teacher is patiently working through with me. One of my worst habits was not practicising with any sort of rhythm sense or counting - hence my dexterity is miles ahead of my rudimentary rhythm skills.

A piece I am working on now (Tchaikovsky's German Song) has an interesting (for me at least) rhythm with a dotted eighth and then a sixteenth in several phrases. My teacher wants me to count 1-2-3 on the dotted eighth and then 4 on the sixteenth. I can play the piece at speed with a metronome, but I cannot when I am trying to count without the metronome - mainly because I am pre-occupied by the insane counting.

I am sorry if this is a very basic question: Is it usual to do this kind of counting at moderato to allegro speeds? It seems that I am spitting out 1-2-3-4 at a furious pace. When I play the piece without the metronome or counting, I can kinda feel the rhythm but I know that I am probably getting off in places. Do you advanced people just feel these rhythms or do you have techniques to do it?

Thank you for any help or insight you can give me!

[fra ungdomsdagene]

A piece I am working on now (Tchaikovsky's German Song) has an interesting (for me at least) rhythm with a dotted eighth and then a sixteenth in several phrases.

There are many ways of counting this so I will suggest one and others will suggest other ways.

Bar 2 for example:
 
(G     -        Bb  )   (G     -    dot   -    Bb )       (Bb     -    Bb  )
(one  -        and)    (twoooooooooooooand)       (three -    and)

This is the way that works better for me, I find all the others ways to count alphabet-notes distracting and confusing. It's easier with notes (Sol, Sib)

Your teacher method is a good one too, as long as you're consistent with the counting and applies the same method to all quarters not just the dotted ones:

(G           -     Bb          )    (G          -    dot    -   Bb  )      (Bb         -    Bb          )
(one-two  -    three-four)    (one-two -   three  -   four)      (one-two -    three-four)

in this way of course you're counting sixteenth notes and you can be more accurate in determining when exactly you should count the 16th Bb after the dotted G

Fra

[fra ungdomsdagene]

x

[landru]

Your teacher method is a good one too, as long as you're consistent with the counting and applies the same method to all quarters not just the dotted ones:

(G           -     Bb          )    (G          -    dot    -   Bb  )      (Bb         -    Bb          )
(one-two  -    three-four)    (one-two -   three  -   four)      (one-two -    three-four)

in this way of course you're counting sixteenth notes and you can be more accurate in determining when exactly you should count the 16th Bb after the dotted G

Yes, I agree this method works at slow speeds. But do people really do this at fast tempos - there's just too many syllables per second!? Or is there a short cut (e.g. one-ah-two-ah or something similiar)? Or do you just count eighths and come in halfway for the sixteenth by enough practice?

The more general question I have since it is so new to me, does there come a point in a person's study where they don't count? Or is it more standard for a pianist/musician to always mentally count or foot tap in some way as they go through a piece?

[fra ungdomsdagene]

Yes, I agree this method works at slow speeds. But do people really do this at fast tempos - there's just too many syllables per second!? Or is there a short cut (e.g. one-ah-two-ah or something similiar)? Or do you just count eighths and come in halfway for the sixteenth by enough practice?

You should be able to count easily like this at:
8th-note = 145 bmp

If you tap your foot this is like:

1st  beat - foot down
2nd beat - foot up
3rd  beat - foot down
4th  beat - foot up
5th  beat - foot down
6th  beat - foot up

Just glue the words together

onetwo    - foot down
threefour - foot up

The more general question I have since it is so new to me, does there come a point in a person's study where they don't count? Or is it more standard for a pianist/musician to always mentally count or foot tap in some way as they go through a piece?

Counting is always there, you do it subconsciously, but you do it. Often with hard rhythm is useful for advanced pianist to tap the rhythm of their whole piece before even depressing one note of the piano.

Fra

[rc]

Yes, I agree this method works at slow speeds. But do people really do this at fast tempos - there's just too many syllables per second!? Or is there a short cut (e.g. one-ah-two-ah or something similiar)? Or do you just count eighths and come in halfway for the sixteenth by enough practice?

The more general question I have since it is so new to me, does there come a point in a person's study where they don't count? Or is it more standard for a pianist/musician to always mentally count or foot tap in some way as they go through a piece?

No no! In actual playing you would never count. You would not be able to count fast enough, and even at a slow pace, it takes too much thought to always be counting. As you've already found, it's just not practical. When playing, it's more of a feel, because you would have practiced it enough, you just know how it feels and sounds within the beat.

Counting is to help get you there. To be able to learn, at a slow pace, how the particular rhythm sounds/feels within the beat. It's important to know this skill so that you are able to learn any rhythm, and to learn it accurately... Then once you know how the rhythm goes, you are safe to do away with the counting.

[fra ungdomsdagene]

I can play the piece at speed with a metronome, but I cannot when I am trying to count without the metronome - mainly because I am pre-occupied by the insane counting.

Have you tried to get rid of numbers and just say "TA" ?
If you can play the piece counting with TAs then your problem is only pronoucing the numbers at fast speed.
I can't see why one should use numbers instead of TAs

Fra

[abell88]

I was taught to count 1-e-&-e, 2-e-&-e, etc. What I use with young students is rhythm syllables (based on the French time names); ta for quarter notes, titi for eighths, tiritiri for 16ths, and tam-ri for the dotted eighth/sixteenth rhythm you describe.

When you've done it enough, you don't count, you just feel it.

[landru]

THANK YOU all for the great responses! I am working very hard on getting the right rhthym and I was feeling that it was getting ingrained - I am very heartened to hear that this is expected. I am beginning to feel an internal beat and I still count the major beats subconsciously when I need to (like for holding a note for two or more beats).

Fra: I did come up with a one syllable thing on my own on other pieces since I really didn't need to count numbers, but it still wasn't working for the German Song piece. I am afraid my teacher will quite insist on some kind of counting mechanism though  . I will work it out, and as I've said, I'm very glad that I won't have to face a future of endless counting.

What a great resource this forum is! Thanks again!