Estonia 190 vs Yamaha C3 vs Petrof III

[Henry]

I am ready to buy a piano.  What is known by this forum about the following: Estonia 190, Yamaha C3, Petrof III.  My budget is geared to this level. I would appreciate and value your opinions.

[Henry]

Since I have received no replies to my query I must infer the following: a) we only discuss upscale pianos here  b)  we don't consider these pianos worth our time c) these pianos a so bad that we don't want to hurt you feelings  or d) everyone knows the answers, and where have you been?  Thanks  anyway

[Axtremus]

I will take the plunge since I have recently played ALL THREE of them.  

Estonia 190: Bright and loud. It's a lot of piano for its price. BIG sound, good if you have a BIG living room. Very "sensitive" action, but I personally find it hard to play pp/ppp at the treble. (Personally, I also find the key surface too slipery with that "cheap plastic" feel.)

Yamaha C3: Good action, good sound in studio/home environment. Good quality control from Yamaha for its C-series in general. Has the signature Yamaha brightness but not too loud as to overpower a small studio or living room. Has "depth" in the tone (but lower register's tone will "break" if you drive it to the fff range). It's a very solid choice. (Choose the Ivorex key surface if possible so you won't get the "cheap plastic" feel under your fingers.)

Petrof III - This is beyond bright, it has a lot of "metalic" quality to its sound. Otherwise, a solid, fine piano with a lot of power, but probably with a narrower dynamic range than the other two overall. If I recall correctly, the keys and pedals felt a little shallow for my habit, but that's just me. If cymbals and bells and triangles and glockenspiels appeal to you, you will likely like Petrof.

All three are very good choices that you cannot go wrong with. My rational analysis says that in sum they are all just as good (without factoring in resale value and warranty -- of which Yamaha probably has a slight edge). It's just a matter of finding one you yourself like the best. (Of note, one Yamaha C3 will likely sound and behave like another C3 or at least can be made to sound like another C3 with very little tweaking, but this cannot be said of Petrof or Estonia. So if you find a particular Petrof or a particular Estonia you like, that's the one you have to buy. Because the next brand new Estonia 190 or Petrof III from the factory may sound/behave rather differently. If you find a C3 you fall in love with, don't be shy to insist on getting that particular one either, whenever possible.) Frankly, if you have the time, the best way to proceed is to play as many pianos as possible, even multiple pianos of the same make and model, until you find one you love or until you're sick of trying out more pianos, at which point you pick one that you like the best (or hate the least) from those you have played.

(All your three choices veer to the "bright" side of the tone spectrum, with Yamaha being the most "mellow" of them all. If you want something even more to the "mellow" side of the spectrum, take a look at a Kawai RX-2, RX-3 or RX-5. RX-2 and RX-3 should be cheaper than the C3 and the RX-5 slightly more expensive. The Knabes and Young Chang/Pramberger series also have 6'+ grand pianos in your price range.)

[eventemp]

I have had a C-3 for the past 6 years, and my experience is very favorable.  But I have several comments that you may wish to consider: 1.  Find one with a tone that you like.  2.  Shop around:  these pianos are greatly discounted, so pretty much ignore the "list" price.  3.  Have you considered a late model used C-3?  Their quality is very good...and you might be able to save a bundle.  4 Watch out for "grey market" Yamahas...these are pianos that were built for the Japan market..and dealers will sometimes bring them into the U.S.  These are to be avoided, since they will not hold up in most of the North American climate.  
Good Luck!!

[Axtremus]

I agree with eventemp that the C3's are generally good pianos. But I do not buy the "gray market" theory on pianos not being built or seasoned for a particular country's climate. The US is so big that there must be vast regions in the US with climates matching various parts of Japan's. Even within Japan itself, the climate of the harsh northern region of Hokkaido is very different than the gentle southern region of Honshu. Plus, most manufacturers gave up on optimizing/seasoning their pianos for a particular climate since they pretty much realized that they ultimately have no control over where their pianos will end up once the pianos leave the factories. It makes no economic sense for a piano manufacturer to geographically limit themselves on where they can sell their products. Furthermore, if you are considering a grand piano, you are not likely to find a used one from Japan. Because Japan is such a small country with such a dense population, most piano owners there simply don't have the room for a grand pianos. Most Japanese homes have vertical/upright pianos instead. My take is, if you find a good-sounding C3 with good action/touch and a reasonable price -- there is no need to worry about whether it is "built for the American climate." Good luck.

[TwinkleFingers]

correct me if Im wrong but would anyone compare the pearl rivers sound to a yamaha?  or maybe the pearl river is a tad more bright.  I never compared them side by side.

(but lower register's tone will "break" if you drive it to the fff range).

what does this mean?

[Axtremus]

Comparing Pearl River to Yamaha -- I never methodically compared the two, but my impression is that the Pearl River has a smaller dynamic range. It's harder to control the pp/ppp on the Pearl River, Pearl River's tone "break" at a smaller volume than Yamaha's. I don't remember the "feel" of the Pearl River very well, but I sort of retained the impression that the Pearl Rivers have lighter touch weights than the Yamahas.

I wish I can describe better what I mean by a tone "break." It's a term I use to describe a tone where, beyond certain volume, the tone color changes substantially from the rest of the piano to a point where it is no longer pleasant to the ears -- it has become a loud noise from which you just want to walk away, and you get the feeling that the instrument is not meant to produce that kind of sound, that you have gone pass the instrument's inherent limits. (May be one day I can figure out a way to characterize this more scientifically, like showing the amount of non-linear distortion of the sound wave versus amplitude on a graph, and that there is a knee-curve beyond a critical amplitude.)

[TwinkleFingers]

I think I get what your saying.  couldnt that be voiced a bit to help.  does it have  to do with the soundboard and strings and hammer material? I have a small pearl river grand 4'7".  and the action is quite heavy surprisingly.  maybe not like the new baldwins(can you say finger cramp) im happy with my pearl river.  all though its a tad to bright in the upper register and of course dealing with a baby grand you have the weak bass in lower register.  but its the best value in my price range for a grand/baby grand.
Judging from just craftsmanship, I would probably go with estonia.  but I never played an estonia.  want to now though!  yamahas always have that problem with the upper register being to bright as well as the pearl river.  it can be corrected though.  oh well its up to you ultimately. which one to you sounds/feels the best.
the only reason I asked about the pearl rivers to the yamaha was because my dealer, who I hope is honest with me, said that pearl river was manufacturing parts for yamaha! is this true? if not point me to a website that says this. thanks

[Axtremus]

Can voicing helps toning down upper registers that are too bright? Sure, but only to some extent. I am of the opinion that certain piano designs are meant to sound bright, others to sound mellow. Even more severe than voicing, I've read about people replacing hammers (e.g., put in Abel hammers in Yamaha Concert Grand) and obtained splendid results. But that's the extreme, not recommended for regular folks, casual players like us. It's probably better to find a piano that already has the sound that is close to what you like, then work with a good technician to tweak it (slightly, I hope) to get to the sound you want.

Personally, I buy a piano with the sound I want (or get as close to the sound I want as possible within my price range). I see very little reason to buy a piano just so that I can change its sound drastically from its original sound -- if a piano is not designed for that kind of sound, why force it? Might as well go buy a different piano. (Exception being that one inherited a piano from someone else and really hated the sound, then short of trading it in for another piano, one can reasonably consider doing some drastic voicing/rebuilding/restoring.)

Also, there is some fundamental laws of physics from which no piano designer/manufacturer can escape. So don't expect a 4'7" piano to give you the sound of a 7'6" piano (actually, it comes down more to the speaking-lengths of the strings and the size/area of the soundboard -- bigger pianos usually have longer strings and bigger boards). This is what motivated a thread I started not long ago asking people of their impressions comparing smaller premium-brand pianos to larger mass-market pianos. I wanted to see how much good design/good construction can make up for the shorter strings/smaller sound boards and how people perceive the differences.

(If you want to compare soundboard areas and string lengths of different pianos, see https://www.pianoweb.com/pno_list.htm , just remember to IGNORE the price column -- the price figures don't really mean much in most markets.)

[Henry]

Axtremus - Thank you for a very thoughtful response to my query.  You are obviously knowledgable about this topic.