Choppiness in runs/fast passages; suggestions?

[exigence]

I've been playing for several years, and while the recent past has mostly involved a sidetrack to the piano for various reasons, I've noticed one of probably my most nagging technical deficiencies - choppy sound in anything even resembling a run/scale or otherwise.

Basically, take things like the runs you find at the end of Chopin's G minor ballde or B minor scherzo - obviously, they shouldn't be that difficult, but I can't seem to get it up-to-speed and have it sound fluid and congruent.  The same is true for portions of said ballade, with the 5-1 fingering in the right hand at a couple of parts.

I imagine the best pianists on this board have had a similar problem along the way, so for those of you that overcame anything that you noticed was causing this in particular for you, what might be some helpful little pointers here to even out the sound and get it to the tempo it needs to be?

[rc]

I'm not too sure if I can help you, but a question to help clarify: Do you mean rhythmic choppiness (uneven note values), connective choppiness (a broken legato when you move to another hand position), or maybe even dynamic choppiness (your thumb always hitting with a BANG)?

[exigence]

Mostly connective, really - and that tends to lead to the other two from time to time, particularly rhythmic, but that's basically the main problem. 

[rc]

I'm not at the level of Chopin Ballades, so take my suggestion for what it is. Hopefully somebody more experienced can have a say. This is tough stuff to write about too...

Maybe a little more diagnostic questions too: Each direction of a scale/arpeggio is different to play. RH ascending/LH descending requires the thumb to pass the 3rd or 4th finger, the opposite direction requires the fingers to pass over the thumb, which is easier because the thumb hits the key before it has to be passed. So is it just a certain direction that's giving you difficulty? I would guess that the RH ascending direction would be the trouble, the other direction seems to come much more easily.

Also, are you able to get a smooth connection at lower speeds, or is this more of a tempo issue? I find speedy work is often more of a mind-game than being very physical. When going quick, it helps to know the passage well enough that you don't have to think about fingering or exactly what the hand is doing. Thinking in terms of hand positions, or even just of the sound being made without much conscious regard for what the hands are doing.

Is your motion a smooth one, or are you making jerky transitions? It's important to have a smooth movement in the entire arm. How I see it is that I always try to have my arm lead in the direction that my hand will move, so that by the time I have to move my hand position my arm is already there and it's more like a snap of the wrist to get there. What it looks like is that my arm is moving at a steady rate, while the hands and fingers are always flying into position. Again, knowing the passage well enough is important so that when your wrist snaps to the next position your fingers will automatically go to where they need to be, so you don't have to think about them.

What I'm talking about is mostly for scales, I can pull them off np. Arpeggios I'm still working on, but I understand it's the same idea as scales, but with wider intervals.

As a general suggestion, I'd say to begin with a slower tempo where you can easily control the motions and get a smooth connection, and do the 'ole metronome notch-by-notch. Going in small steps like that helps train the fingers to know how to automatically react, helps you stay in control between the slower speeds and faster. I would suggest to put more emphasis on careful listening, and try to eventually detach yourself from the physical motions as you gain confidence that they will take care of themselves. Try playing without looking as well, often our eyes simply cannot keep up with fast speeds, which our ears and kinesthetic feel can handle more easily.

[ramseytheii]

The previous reply has some generally good information.  I don't think the original post gave us enough information to really deal with your problem.  However I would like to point out this, not to contradict the previous post, but just for contrast.  I find that thinking about the "motions' or "movements" is the most harmful thing I can do for my own piano playing.  I tend to think in much more general terms, just whether something feels good or not.  Usually it is a musical key that will solve the solution.

I am aware that such an idea is hackneyed and sounds cliched.  However it is really proven success for me.  If a passage is feeling uncomfortable (externally can sound in lots of different ways, including choppiness, for example the LH arpeggios in second page of Liszt sonata gave me lots of choppiness at first) I do things like exaggerate the inner melodic shapes.  It is death to try and play long runs as if it was just one straight line.  At the end, it may sound like that, but you are actualyl shaping all of the notes inside in different ways.

According to Konrad Wolff, a student of Schnabel, Schnabel use to imagine long scales divided in irregular ways, for instance 5 notes here, 3 there, 4, etc.  (from Wolff's book, "The Teaching of Artur Schnabel").  All of these inner groups, inner phrases, have their own shape which correspond to create the effect of the whole shape.  This may sound terribly vague.  Perhaps if you are interested I can give you some concrete examples.  But my point is, when you start to shape these small groups melodically, at least when I do it, I find that the physical problems take care of themselves.    And I have found results in this in hugely varied repertoire, for instance Mozart concertos or Rachmaninoff Preludes. 

Maybe somebody can elaborate more than I am able.  Though if you have any questions do ask.

Walter Ramsey


P.S. I am reminded something that Bernhard wrote a while ago, that even-sounding piano playing requires uneven movement.  So when you are working on my vaguely worded "melodic shapes" think also how timing plays a role in any melody, and how you can subtly take time in phrases that won't even be noticed by outside listeners.  In other words, perfect evenness is an illusion.

[bearzinthehood]

Basically, take things like the runs you find at the end of Chopin's G minor ballde or B minor scherzo - obviously, they shouldn't be that difficult

Those are difficult pieces.  If you cannot play them well then play something else.  This is especially true after taking a break from the piano, when it is most likely true that your confidence far exceeds your technical abilities.

As for executing fast melodic passage evenly and without error, my only advice is that you must be completely familiar with the passage on many levels: the passage as a whole, all groupings of notes that correspond to a rhythmic unit, all groupings of notes that correspond to a single motion of the arm/wrist, and all individual notes and the finger stroke/release required to play them.  At some point this becomes automatic, but if you're having trouble it's best to go back to basics.  Time spent up front investigating the most efficient way to execute the passage is well spent, and time spent practicing inefficient movements is a horribly wasted.

[exigence]

Yeah, certainly my technique isn't up to speed for those particulars.  It's just that that is perhaps my biggest shortcoming that I've noticed thus far; when it comes to things that emphasize other aspects of pianism - Scriabin's d#m, some of the polonaises, and even things like most of Liszt's Les Cloches de Geneve or other works - I typically don't have nearly as much of a problem.

Of course, I think both of you are correct in saying that familiarity with the passage is a large part of the battle - I'm probably just being too hard on myself, too soon.

Thanks for your advice, all.