What do you do with a "child prodigy" ?

[m1469]

Just kinda curious if they should be/would be treated differently.


m1469 

[pianistimo]

culture has a lot to do with the amount of work the child is expected to do in regards to homework and practice on an instrument.  if the parents try to push too hard, though, you might have to recommend them to another teacher.  sometimes there is a behind the scenes struggle for perfection - and then, if it is not met, a sense of great frustration or disappointment.  i think the goals for each student can be modified, but not greatly exaggerated - otherwise - they have no time to do 'kid stuff' (and possibly their stack of homework).

summertime seems like the very best time to give them extra work and activities beyond (theory lessons?) lessons.  that's just my ideas.  i have a daughter that is extremely bright, and if she is guided to learn something, she does fairly quickly.  laziness can set it if you don't keep them doing something!

[zheer]

Just feel a little sorry for them, it might be a little lonly.

[pianistimo]

yes.  more expectations are made.  i keep forgetting how old my daughter is and expect her behaviour to be more that of a 13 year old.  she just turned 11 and i get frustrated when she screams at her sister - but then brings home A's in spanish (and everything else).   i never could learn a foreign language - i tried several times- but apparently not hard enough.  she just whizzes by in everything - so sometimes i think of her as a sort of little adult. 

it used to be lonely for her, until she met another girl who is extremely similar to her and they started a friendship.  she said the other kids were kind of silly ?

guess it's the perspective of whoever is teaching.  i already know my daughter is way beyond where i was at her age - so in actuality - it would be best for me to just let someone else teach her.  i hope she takes voice lessons this summer (as she doesn't seem interested in piano).   

[lostinidlewonder]

I haven't had a prodigy but I have some very gifted young kids. One of them is so fast in learning music we memorise entire pieces in one lesson at a grade 4 standard which is not bad for a young kid! I have to bring so much music for him and play through pieces until one interests him (so long there are no octaves because he cannot stretch that yet). I think that is the hardest part about teaching a gifted student, to keep up with them, to keep them interested.

I found sometimes these young kids know that they are good and get impatient, rush through things, do not want to spend time on perfecting expression. I think sometimes that comes down to musical immaturity, it just doesn't interest them to make the perfect sound, they just want to play and get better with their hands physically, play lots of cool sounds. I think there is no harm in this, just expose these gifted students to heaps of different composers that stretch their hands, make things difficult for them because they have this "talent" resource to somewhat deal with it, unlike most other students who would suffer if you made things difficult for them. I mean don't squash them flat but judge how to challenge them physically.

Some of these gifted students I find are very narrow minded and know what they like musically. One of them likes only jazz, the other only Bach (very odd for a young kid!), some don't care so long the piece sounds exciting fast and loud. I think push in the areas they are most interested in, and if they don't have interest in anything in particular then you are free to develop them as you see best. I never teach a students a piece they don't like, and kids have very black and white opinions on pieces, its either good or bad, very simple for them.

[luvslive]

very good question!  i have not had one yet, but like others have had kids who are serious about piano and catch on quickly.   i have one student i would consider particularly gifted.  she takes critisicm very well/fixes problems, understands how to express emotion at the piano and has an excellent memory..  that to me is better than a kid who simply plays as fast as they can or moves through pieces asap.
she will come back each week and the pieces just keep improving.  so what do i do with her?  give her lots of positive feedback, she deserves the praise. and of course some constructive criticism, because she can handle it and will put in the effort to do what i am asking for.  some kids will not.
i do find it difficult to plan her lessons at times, because i never know how many pieces she will have already put together (she is suzuki book 2)..and i must keep up on knowing the correct fingerings and forms of pieces so i don't confuse her by playing something incorrectly.  because she will copy me.  and yes, she does get impatient at times.  her first book recital is tomorrow and i am looking forward to it immensely.  her parents have been so involved and i know a lot of friends and family will be there.
so if you have a prodigy/gifted student: enjoy them!  but make them work to improve.

[porter]

Very good topic.

My own view is that actual prodigies are rare. We parents like to think we have some talented children and we may well have one or two. Isn't it in the genes? and as the human race gets advanced through breeding we will all find in time, that the human being is capable of a great deal, brain-wise.

We always had a piano in the house (and a Hammond organ) so all our 5 children were equally free to play it. None did. Though a couple have decided to play guitar and one has a keyboard. This is now they are well into adult life.

If you read about the great pianists, many were quite normal as children and played outside with other children but would be drawn to the piano often because one parent perhaps. would be musical too.

I think it's important to have a piano in the house which one parent plays quite often and the children are exposed to the sounds which will either put them off or allow them to show interest too.

I do believe in not pushing a child into something like music unless they really show the urge to learn it. Be patient and see what evolves naturally.

Alan

[rc]

Some of these gifted students I find are very narrow minded and know what they like musically. One of them likes only jazz, the other only Bach (very odd for a young kid!), some don't care so long the piece sounds exciting fast and loud. I think push in the areas they are most interested in, and if they don't have interest in anything in particular then you are free to develop them as you see best. I never teach a students a piece they don't like, and kids have very black and white opinions on pieces, its either good or bad, very simple for them.

Interesting. Possibly it's that narrow focus that allows a student to learn quickly, devoting all the energy to one small area.

[Bob]

What do you do with a "child prodigy" ?

Same as any student.  Try to challenge them and find as many opportunities for them as possible.

Personally, I would probably send them to a better teacher.

[whynot]

I would make sure they have access to GOBS of music to look through on their own.  Help them to learn to really listen to their own sound and the sounds that other people make, and not just be all about the fingers.  Children with obvious physical gifts get such accolades for their fingers that they can easily think that's the whole point of playing.  On the other hand, it's good to be sympathetic to all that finger "energy" and give them things to play which satisfy that craving to really move.  Encourage them to play songs by ear and really understand music-- keys, harmony, rhythms... not in the academic sense at first, although that's important, but with the ears and fingers first.  As far as how to treat them, in a more personal sense, I would emphasize how music moves people, changes lives, how we have something to say or share... that this is why we need all these techniques etc.  I would also suggest that they not be required to perfect everything they play.  That they really nail some things down, and others they just spend time with to gain certain experiences.  BUT... when I have a student stop working on a piece that's not finished, I tell them why we're stopping, and that we know it isn't quite polished yet, "right?"  I let them know that this isn't the performance standard, but we spent time on it because... it was so beautiful, it was in a certain key, it had a new accompaniment pattern etc., that I really liked what they did with it and if they like the piece, we'll come back to it later on.

Is this helpful? 


 

[pita bread]

You give him Stravinsky's Petrushka. That should keep him busy for a while.

[m1469]

Is this helpful? 

Yes, it is.  Thanks. 

[alwaystheangel]

My teacher has a child prodigy.  It's insane playing 3 years and he's ARTC.  The biggest problem teacher has with him is his enormous ego.  That and the fact that he doen't practice.  So even though he can learn the music quickly he does not have the patience to perfect it.  It's sad really because he will never be truly good even though he is incredibly talented.  I think my teacher should send him off to her teacher.  He's scary and would straighten him out in no time flat.  I would never take a lesson with him... He'd make me cry.  He is seriously tha mean... that and the Russian accent and the fact he's crazy good.  Sorry... just a little aside there

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I am sorry for asking, but what is the ARTC?

[abell88]

what is the ARTC?

Actually it's ARCT...Associate of the Royal Conservatory of Toronto. Basically a professional level diploma in teaching, performing, or theory.

[ahinton]

What do you do with a "child prodigy" ?

Same as any student.  Try to challenge them and find as many opportunities for them as possible.

Personally, I would probably send them to a better teacher.

This response, for all its brevity, points as closely as any so far towards the best answer to m1469's question.

I should begin by declaring that I am neither a pianist nor a teacher, so in one sense I might seem to be even less well qualified to answer her question than those of you who are pianists and teachers but who have nevertheless yet to experience a child prodigy in your charge. I have, however, encountered this prodigy "problem" on a number of occasions and have had opportunites to observe and consider.

I think a lot will inevitably depend on the age of the child concerned; what one may do with a 5-year-old who has played for 2 years and developed the facilities expected of an averagely gifted student twice his/her age will likely be rather different to what one may do with an 8-year-old who has been playing for five years and, hand size considerations apart, can just about get their fingers around Chopin's Op. 10 (and yes, I have seen a case like that - and even another of an 11-year-old who could give a more than tolerable account of Liszt's Sonata and Alkan's Sonatine, albeit not from memory). A case such as the latter will have played quite a lot more music than the former; this fact, coupled with the greater age, will make it more likely that one could interest the student in a wider variety of challenging repertoire to explore.

I would also want to ensure that the child's listening experiences were as ample and as wide-ranging as possible, for, if they are, it will usually be somewhat easier to challenge him/her with a greater variety of repertoire; just as Busoni used to counsel pianists to practise the most difficult passage in a piece immediately next to the easiest, it's generally a good idea to put music of the English Elizabethan keyboard composers in front of such a child along with Bartók, Prokofiev and Shostakovich, as well as non-tonal music such as Schönberg's op. 19 and some of the easier pieces by Krenek, to avoid any risk that boredom may ensue as a result of exposure to an insufficient variety of harmonic and pianistic languages and techniques.

Get them also to listen to good performances of piano music by Ligeti, Xenakis, Boulez, Messiaen, etc. as well as Bach, Beethoven, Chopin et al.

Encourage them to begin to learn a second instrument if they are not already doing so.

Get them to play chamber music rather than working alone most of the time.

Get them to compose! - and encourage a certain amount of improvisation along with learning pieces from scores.

They won't necessarily like it all, of course, but at least they'll have been given plenty to think about!

I hope that this helps.

Best,

Alistair

[CC]

Prodigies are special and require a lot of work on your part -- because they are at a higher level, their problems are also at higher levels and correspondingly difficult to treat. and EVERYTHING HAS TO BE DONE AT AS EARLY AGE AS POSSIBLE.  This means constantly testing them as soon as they are born.  To discover prodigies when they are 10 yrs is the biggest waste and misfortune.

What they are good at -- let them do whatever they want, at any pace; just don't overexpect just because they are good and don't push, because prodigies can't be pushed around.  Just give them support from below -- provide the necessary environment, but don't indulge -- don't treat them special. Of course, you need to give them all the fundamentals: perfect pitch, great sight reading and memory, rudimentary composition (don't push composition theory until they have formed their own style), and the shortest path to good technique, etc.

Above all, teach them honesty.  Prodigies soon discover that they can easily fool people and look even better than they really are. This is actually an useful art that all smarts eventually cultivate, but there must be a difference between optimizing and dishonesty. HONESTY STARTS AT HOME AND WITH THE TEACHER. Don't beat around the bush: honesty must be taught; start by discussing it openly -- openness is the key.

Your role is not only support for what they are good at, but help where they have weaknesses.  Always be on a lookout for weaknesses -- prodigies are usually extremes, and they can have extreme weaknesses such as unusual personalities or unjustified fears. They often go only in one direction and ignore everything else. Thus boadening their horizons is important.  Try to get them interested in everything that is challenging.  Sports.  Science -- math, quantum mechanics, cosmology, economy. Outdoor activities and bodily health must be addressed.

Finally, you have come to the right place -- music is the ultimate challenge; in music, prodigies can converse directly with many of the greatest geniuses that ever lived.  I have never heard of a prodigy that completely conquered music. Therefore, you can rest assured that in music, they will meet all the challenges they can handle.

[ahinton]

Prodigies are special and require a lot of work on your part -- because they are at a higher level, their problems are also at higher levels and correspondingly difficult to treat. and EVERYTHING HAS TO BE DONE AT AS EARLY AGE AS POSSIBLE.  This means constantly testing them as soon as they are born.  To discover prodigies when they are 10 yrs is the biggest waste and misfortune.

What they are good at -- let them do whatever they want, at any pace; just don't overexpect just because they are good and don't push, because prodigies can't be pushed around.  Just give them support from below -- provide the necessary environment, but don't indulge -- don't treat them special. Of course, you need to give them all the fundamentals: perfect pitch, great sight reading and memory, rudimentary composition (don't push composition theory until they have formed their own style), and the shortest path to good technique, etc.

Above all, teach them honesty.  Prodigies soon discover that they can easily fool people and look even better than they really are. This is actually an useful art that all smarts eventually cultivate, but there must be a difference between optimizing and dishonesty. HONESTY STARTS AT HOME AND WITH THE TEACHER. Don't beat around the bush: honesty must be taught; start by discussing it openly -- openness is the key.

Your role is not only support for what they are good at, but help where they have weaknesses.  Always be on a lookout for weaknesses -- prodigies are usually extremes, and they can have extreme weaknesses such as unusual personalities or unjustified fears. They often go only in one direction and ignore everything else. Thus boadening their horizons is important.  Try to get them interested in everything that is challenging.  Sports.  Science -- math, quantum mechanics, cosmology, economy. Outdoor activities and bodily health must be addressed.

Finally, you have come to the right place -- music is the ultimate challenge; in music, prodigies can converse directly with many of the greatest geniuses that ever lived.  I have never heard of a prodigy that completely conquered music. Therefore, you can rest assured that in music, they will meet all the challenges they can handle.

More sanity and wisdom to the square inch here than I, as a non-teaching non-pianist, could hope to provide by the sqaure mile. What more can be said?!

Best,

Alistair

[alwaystheangel]

Actually it's ARCT...Associate of the Royal Conservatory of Toronto. Basically a professional level diploma in teaching, performing, or theory.

Whoops! Can't spell thank you for the correction!

[CC]

There is one important point I forgot to add (I'm sure I missed a lot of details):

Prodigies will generally enter competitions; therefore, it is important to tell them, way ahead of time (it will be too late AFTER the competition) that:

Piano competitions are inherently unfair, but it is usually not the fault of the judges; judging in real time is a difficult task, and the present systems leave a lot  of room for improvement.  Also, judges are people, you will encounter politics, human weaknesses (jealousy, etc.), and irrational points of view.  But above all, the value of competitions lies in the preparation, not in winning.

[mike_lang]

.

[m1469]

You send them to Emilio del Rosario.

Yeah, send all of your "good" students to other teachers because they have more experience than you do.  Whatever you do, don't gain experience yourself.   

[mike_lang]

.

[m1469]

I was half joking, at least with the name.  However, "prodigies", as you say, must be handled very carefully.  If one feels uncomfortable or uncertain about working with one, it is best to send them to another teacher.  Prodigies can be ruined.

How, exactly, can they be ruined ?  Can't any student be "ruined" ?

*grabs a handful of popcorn and listens intently*


ps-  If I gave every student away whom I didn't feel certain about what exactly to do with, I wouldn't have a single student.  Actually, I would never have started teaching in the first place.

pss- If a person's only answer (who obviously has experience) is to send them to somebody else, how does a person ever find out more about what to do ?  You act as though treating them carefully is treating them a secret way... why don't you share with us ? 

psss-  Just because a person asks questions and still has a lot to learn does not make them unfit to be a teacher.  Nor does it make them underqualified or "bad" at it.

[pianistimo]

if you are able to give short, precise answers that satisfy the child - you are on cue.  unfortunately, for me, i am too long winded - even for my daughter.  i would send her to my own teacher if she showed interest in piano.  he is very direct, straightforward (i try to be- but am innately one of those people that diddles along the way). 

just from watching my daughter, who has been tested in th 98% nationally, she converses better with her dad when asking some questions.  the conversing part is important.  he can immediately spot what she is trying to 'get at' with some questions.  perhaps i put myself down too much - but i think with some children - their brains are wired to probe more deeply into things than a child their age.  they have great attention spans, attention to detail, relational and spatial understandings, and sometimes less (seemingly) emotional needs in comparison to intellectual.  my daughter doesn't want me 'helping' her.  she wants to do it herself.  very independent.  very proactive in what she learns.  and, persistent about learning things to the point she'll do them over and over until she 'get it.'  most kids just set the timer for practice (i know i did) and go play after the 1/2 hour or whatever.  of course, i don't still do that, but i mean at her age

[celticqt]

I would love an answer to this question!  I have one very talented student (not a prodigy, but definitely above average) who is going through 10-11 pages in his lesson books per week, and comes back with most things memorized.  He also looks ahead in his books to play things that look interesting to him.  I'm really not sure what to do with him.  He is 9 and has been playing for about 6 months. 

ps-  If I gave every student away whom I didn't feel certain about what exactly to do with, I wouldn't have a single student.  Actually, I would never have started teaching in the first place.

pss- If a person's only answer (who obviously has experience) is to send them to somebody else, how does a person ever find out more about what to do ?  You act as though treating them carefully is treating them a secret way... why don't you share with us ? 

psss- Just because a person asks questions and still has a lot to learn does not make them unfit to be a teacher. Nor does it make them underqualified or "bad" at it.

Agreed, on all three counts.

Has anyone used the Developing Artist series of books by Faber?  I'm thinking of trying those with him.

[gruffalo]

You need to get them into the competitive scene quickly. Im not saying adding pressure, but they need to develope that instinct. i wasnt a prodigy, but my teacher used to enter me in loads regional competitions. She didnt give me the easy way through, she made me enter the groups that were a couple of years older than me. It gave me a lot of enthusiasm and i won a cup in a 14 and unders class when i was 9, and i was over the moon. thats the kind of feeling they should have the chance to get. its really rewarding. but at the same time, make sure the parents let them enjoy it, instead of over pushing them. but at the same time, the parents cant let them get lazy. also, i think its wise that if you think you cant handle the kid, then pass him on. when i was 11-15, i had this new teacher. he was slightly cheaper price (wasnt able to afford the other one anymore) and my mum still didnt have a good idea of what a good teacher was (neither of my parents are from musical background) and this guy just didnt bother doing anything. day dreamed in my lessons. he did house visits, so he just took his cheques and skipped off. i should name and shame this guy. his has possibly ruined any prospects i had with piano. but my new teacher thinks it aint too late.

wow im waffling too much.

but in short, give em work, competitions, but not too much. and make sure to pass on if cant handle em.

[celticqt]

Help!  This kid's mom just told me that he finished his WHOLE BOOK - 11 pages wasn't enough!

His next lesson is Friday.

[m1469]

hmmmm... Well, it seems you are working lesson to lesson vs having an orverall plan.  Which from my own experience is extremely (more) stressful no matter who the student is (much like living paycheck to paycheck... ugh..).

So, do you have a curriculum set up in general ? 


m1469

[pianistimo]

just pondering and not really knowing all the answers, but i wonder if along with mtna guidelines and/or abrsm guidelines  - you also expose them to a lot of concerts.  seems that learning comes in so many ways.  (as aforementioned competitions).  there are also master classes in the summer in many uni's or trips to various places.  i just kind of wonder if it is the ability to give stimulus to make them a many sided artist. 

also, to have more than one teacher is not terrible.  maybe suggest to the parents about enrolling them in a music theory class at a local community college (summer classes) - or giving them a book per month (biographies, autobiographies, musical history).  seems that kids like this are sponges in the summer (winter being a little bit more difficult to have more time than just practice time).   also, maybe (as you already do) some get-togethers that are sometimes formal and sometimes not.  play a DVD - eat popcorn.  discuss.  maybe even look at the score while it's playing.  you could even ask them to critique the performance and see what they notice. 

[balkanshpe]

If I were a student myself- I would have no business working with a prodigy and I would send them to someone who is qualified, and equally prodigious.

[pianistimo]

me too, although i had two brothers that were quick learners and they seemed really eager to keep taking beginning lessons - so i kept them for a couple of years and then passed them on.  some teachers don't want to take beginners, no matter how prodigious.  the older one was really motivated and the younger (being outdone) simply did what was required. 

mtna gives you guidelines to teach by, but since moving to the east coast - i've realized people just grow up with music here and parents are really involved.  not to say that parents can't be involved everywhere, but was surprised at the level of talents here.  the talent is a few levels higher and kind of according to what's expected in the public schools.  they are usually a grade or so higher in terms of what the kids are doing in school.  for instance, in sixth grade they are doing 'pre-algebra.'  (i don't remember doing that until 7th or 8th grade).  and, they have music classes /choir/ foreign languages that are pretty much standard instead of elective.  you have to choose one language.  my daughter has a basic level of french and german in sixth grade.   

[balkanshpe]

Help!  This kid's mom just told me that he finished his WHOLE BOOK - 11 pages wasn't enough!

His next lesson is Friday.

GET HIM A NEW BOOK.

[mike_lang]

.

[celticqt]

Great suggestions, everyone - thanks!  This "transformation" just began a couple of weeks ago, so it caught me a little unprepared.  This student had been practicing on a little two-octave keyboard.  About three weeks ago he got an upright piano. And he just TOOK OFF.  Whooosh!

m1469 - No, I don't have a curriculum set up.  I've been using the Faber lesson series with most of my kids.  This has now obviously become insufficient for him.

Pianistimo - I like the reading suggestion.  This student reads voraciously, and I think he might enjoy some composer biographies.  I'd also like to take him to some of my rehearsals at the local music store (accompanying Tchaikovsky's 1st right now) just to let him listen.  (Lucky you, on the east coast - that's where I'm from.)

Michael - a little nervous about giving him Bach, although I would love to.  Not sure if he has the dexterity/finger control necessary yet - chubby little fingers can't even reach an octave.  Maybe from the Notebook?  Also, should I ask him to memorize every piece every week?

[m1469]

Wow, if I didn't know any better, I would be absolutely freaked out to teach anybody myself, after how people are acting on this thread.


Good thing I know better  .



m1469

[mike_lang]

.

[Bob]

I thought generally you have a student go through the method books for a while and then start introducing easier pieces -- sonatinas, inventions, etc.   and then on to harder pieces.

[mike_lang]

.

[lostinidlewonder]

I know a 10-year-old already playing Ravel Toccata

yeah right. I know a 10 yr old who can play his Scarbo too.

Michael - a little nervous about giving him Bach, although I would love to.  Not sure if he has the dexterity/finger control necessary yet - chubby little fingers can't even reach an octave.  Maybe from the Notebook?  Also, should I ask him to memorize every piece every week?

Bach is a must for the development of any serious keyboardist although kids do not usually like it. I know I hated Bach while I was a kid but when I turned 20 I loved Bach and had to play him. Really work hard to try and discover what this kid likes even if that means you playing a whole collection of pieces for him in 1 lesson and asking him which ones sound good to him, use that info for your repetoire decision for him.

Kids can lose inspiration very fast, it comes and goes, so ride the wave while it is still there, try to find out exactly what he wants. If he doesn't have a clue and doesn't care what he learns (which would be highly unlikely) then teach him whatever you think will develop his fingers, lots of studies and etudes. Play lots of melodic pieces where there is an obvious singing voice, Chopin is great for that, this music helps expression a great deal. Get him to learn ALL the chords and scales, a gifted student would find these things essential, highlight how these are building blocks of all music.

[mike_lang]

yeah right. I know a 10 yr old who can play his Scarbo too.

I don't know if you say "yeah right" because you don't believe me...

This particular 10-year-old is a triple major at the pre-college division Juilliard in piano, violin, and composition.  His technique is, of course, superb, and his compositions have been praised by John Corigliano.  Conrad Tao is the name if you're interested.

[lostinidlewonder]

This particular 10-year-old is a triple major at the pre-college division Juilliard in piano, violin, and composition. His technique is, of course, superb, and his compositions have been praised by John Corigliano. Conrad Tao is the name if you're interested.

He is 12 BTW. born 1994. He must have big hands then. Ravel's Toccata forces your hands into postions even the developed hand finds tough to control (especially when 3or4 note chords in one hand shift around with the continuous thumb), I would seriously like to watch a kid play it WELL. I have heard all sorts of young kids play tough music but is it any good? Not really, its pretty technical but zero emotional connection to it. Is that prodigy? I don't think so, just a good key presser. A real prodigy plays expresion with the experience of an old man and the technique as fresh and powerful as a young 20 yr old. Still I have never seen this.

Just before I turned 10  I could play 3 movements of  Beethoven's Appassionata Sonata, all three movements, but is this prodigy material? Some may think so, I definatly think not. I have recordings of myself playing at this age and if I hear it now I laugh my head off. The immaturity, the fake big sounds etc. I wouldn't let myself get tricked in thinking that I was any more special than any other kid who played piano. I just wanted to learn this music more than they did, I didn't have magical fingers. This is why most child prodigies evaporate and are forgotten. Because they are told they are so good, and they might be technically, but they never realise the other side of piano, the emotion, the passion, some never realise it, they just technique all day and they have little life experience to understand the emotion of the music. They are told they are great and amazing all the time while they are young and never learn to grow and feel like they have to learn something.

I think it is really unfortunate seeing 10 yr olds playing in their own solo concert. THEY ARE NOT READY! It is a circus act! Its like watching a poodle stand on two legs and dance around in a circus as I've heard some people put it. The kid of course will sharpen their concert skills but they need to realise that piano is not about just playing concerts and having people clap and say that was good. It is about music, and young kids touring forget about the music and live an adults life. They never have a childhood, they will admit they never missed their childhood sitting infront of the piano! But this is not life! This is not music! This is terrible money exploitation. Its all about the $ isnt it! sickening.

[mike_lang]

He is 12 BTW. born 1994. He must have big hands then. Ravel's Toccata forces your hands into postions even the developed hand finds tough to control (especially when 3or4 note chords in one hand shift around with the continuous thumb), I would seriously like to watch a kid play it WELL. I have heard all sorts of young kids play tough music but is it any good? Not really, its pretty technical but zero emotional connection to it. Is that prodigy? I don't think so, just a good key presser. A real prodigy plays expresion with the experience of an old man and the technique as fresh and powerful as a young 20 yr old. Still I have never seen this.

Just before I turned 10  I could play 3 movements of  Beethoven's Appassionata Sonata, all three movements, but is this prodigy material? Some may think so, I definatly think not. I have recordings of myself playing at this age and if I hear it now I laugh my head off. The immaturity, the fake big sounds etc. I wouldn't let myself get tricked in thinking that I was any more special than any other kid who played piano. I just wanted to learn this music more than they did, I didn't have magical fingers. This is why most child prodigies evaporate and are forgotten. Because they are told they are so good, and they might be technically, but they never realise the other side of piano, the emotion, the passion, some never realise it, they just technique all day and they have little life experience to understand the emotion of the music. They are told they are great and amazing all the time while they are young and never learn to grow and feel like they have to learn something.

Sorry, my mistake on the age.  This kid is indeed a prodigy - when he was 6 or 7 he returned from a CSO concert and played the entire hour long program on the piano for my teacher.  Total recall, incredibly quick learning (he learned the e minor Chopin scherzo that I auditioned for school with in one week and had it memorized).  I can't convince you of his maturity with words or anything, its really just something one has to see.  This kid is not an isolated incident - I see others like him, but also older students (15-16) that  play doctoral material.  Of course, that is not material for this discussion on prodigies.  Anyway, this is quite different than a typical young student playing tough material.  I'm not sure where you're from, but if you are ever in the Chicago area, it is worth taking a look at one of Emilio Del Rosario's master classes on Saturday nights.

[gruffalo]

make sure the kid gets involved in other activities, ie. sports, family stuff. He needs to exercise social skills, teamwork and small things in life that other normal kids experience.

[alwaystheangel]

how about actually calling him normal and treating him as normal.  The child will become so full of it if he constantly hears how incredible he is yadd...yadda...yadda... you have to be careful about that because shildren are so easily affected by it. 

[mike_lang]

how about actually calling him normal and treating him as normal.  The child will become so full of it if he constantly hears how incredible he is yadd...yadda...yadda... you have to be careful about that because shildren are so easily affected by it. 

In this case, it is important that he be with similar kids.  If his friends have the same abilities, he will not realize he is extraordinary and this will not be an issue.

[alwaystheangel]

I dunno, how many prodigies are there really that hang out together,  I would think that that is in fact more isolating for the child.  I definately agree with making sure he has interests outside of music, there's nothing worse than a genius musician that isn't well-rounded.

[mike_lang]

I dunno, how many prodigies are there really that hang out together,  I would think that that is in fact more isolating for the child.  I definately agree with making sure he has interests outside of music, there's nothing worse than a genius musician that isn't well-rounded.

I don't mean that you isolate him, but only that he is around some of his "equals."  I say this because I remember my piano teacher was in the first studio of Leon Fleisher, and he was one of five.  He was a prodigy, but he said he never realized he was anything extraordinary because the kids in his studio had the same abilities. 

[alwaystheangel]

That's fortuante that he had kids like that around him.  Must have lived in a larger town then.  We have one prodigy in our town so that's not really possible.  I think we both agree on the fact that he shouldn't be full of him/herself  because that would be the most dangerous to his/her talent and psychological well-being.

[lagin]

Hi there, all.  This is very interesting indeed.  I'm just going to play the devil's advocate here for a second.  About the competitions and playing in more advance groups.  Do this with caution.  My teacher used to do this with me, and it turned me off.  Yes, as someone has already said, the competitions are hardly EVER fair, as it is only an opinion.  If 2 people play equally well, then it's just someones opinion as to who gets 1st and who gets 2nd.  Some judges look more for technical mastery, and some look more for emotional mastery.  I've had both.  In playing in the same recitals as the more advanced, I soon took the view that I obviously was no good, as they were far better.  I didn't matter that they had more experience by FAR.  I simply "sucked."  Don't worry, I'm over this now .  So yes, exposure to the "best" is good, but always and only seeing the best takes the fun out of learning and your whole piano experience becomes about being as good as they are instead of being as good as YOU and only YOU can be.  Healthy competition is an oxymoron, unless you are competing with yourself.  (Or unless you are simply trying to get exposure to get into good colleges, but it's still not very "healthy" even then).  IMO.

And to address the delema of the wizz kid who finished his method book so fast.  My teacher had a kid like this.  Method book learned in a couple weeks, so got bumped to grade 3 repertoire RCM.  Then my teacher, "snuck" in a grade 6 piece without this kid knowing and they learned it, too.  Then of course, they went straight to grade 6.  I shouldn't say kid, though.  This was an older teenage student.  But it depends on the student too.  I have kids that like a challenge, and kids that would rather turn out a few easy songs a week.  I usually give a choice.  "Would you like to try something more challenging or way more challenging?"  Play both.  I've had kids pick both options.  It depends on the child.  Do continue to keep us posted though, k?  Btw, I personally wouldn't have him memorize everything, but some yes, definately.  Also, you might consider going with the RCM series.  Grade one corresponds to about 2Bish with the Faber series I think.  I like it because of the variety of Bach to jazz/contempory in every book in every level, even for little hands.  And I love that it has them out of "postions" and moving up and down the keyboard right from the start, even if it is just octave repetitions.  It gives the kids a greater sense of accomplishment, IMO.