musical borrowing

[pianistimo]

i know this has come up before, but just thought i'd copy these notes before they get lost in a pile somewhere.  then, i can come back on piano forum and find the stuff!  anyway, in my piano concerto class (before i had to withdraw due to broken leg) the prof. showed us that js bach's 'musical offerring' was used many times by other composers.  (the #1 ricarcar for three voices under 'regis iussu cantio et reliqua canonica arte resoluta') 

he said that the 'musical offerring' was used in lvbeethoven's concerto #3, op. 37 (at the beginning, and also in the bass at m9), mozart's piano concerto KV 491, and mozart's fantasy in c minor KV 475.  you can follow the basic notes as a skeleton leading from the C to the A-flat.  he calls these 'children of the musical offerring.' 

do you know any other borrowings?  i was listening to mozart's K570 sonata and thinking it sounded very similar to a sonata of Beethoven's (liebenwalde) but have to go downstairs to remember which one.

[panic]

I heard an apparent example of Liszt borrowing Alkan's material recently that I'm a bit upset about, because it majorly involves the Ballade No. 2 and I had thought that was one of Liszt's most original long compositions. There's a rarely played piece by Alkan entitled "Le Vent," the second of the Trois Morceaux Dans Le Genre Pathetique op. 15, composed in 1837. If you ever get the chance to hear this piece, listen to the opening theme (type in "in 1837" in iTunes music store). The Ballade (1852)'s opening theme is basically a ripoff of it: he borrows the up-and-down chromatic accompaniment entirely and even part of the melody - a C#-E-D-D pattern in Le Vent becomes an F#-A-G-G pattern in the Ballade, with the exact same rhythm. (Not to mention that the Liszt Sonata's second theme sounds kinda like it too - poor Alkan.) I don't like being sensationalist, especially about a composer as great as Liszt, but after hearing these two the similarity seems great to be a coincidence - especially because Le Vent used to be really popular (Sorabji once commented that it would be a pity if Alkan were remembered only for Le Vent). Okay, rant over.

[thalbergmad]

The Guiness book of musical records has a good few pages on musical borrowings.

Apparantly, the worst offender was Charles Ives. The list of other peoples tunes he used is massive. Satie too was a bit of a borrower and then he would give the credit to the wrong composer.

[BoliverAllmon]

There's a rarely played piece by Alkan entitled "Le Vent," the second of the Trois Morceaux Dans Le Genre Pathetique op. 15, composed in 1837.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

[pianistimo]

interesting about ballade #2 of liszt, and the other composers mentioned.  never would have guessed ives (except that sometimes he purposely borrowed tunes to improvise sometimes) and satie.  maybe all composers do at one time or other...and the more honest ones admit it.

here's some more stuff on alkan that i didn't know about (child prodigy, taught nadia boulenger's father, took lessons from chopin)

https://newcriterion.com/archive/11/may93/alkan.htm

[BoliverAllmon]

I personally borrow different ideas from composers. I don't know if it is noticable, but I do it nonetheless.

[quantum]

I read somewhere in an article that Beethoven quotes directly from Handel's Messiah in the Missa Solemnis.  It's supposed to be an extensive passage too.  I haven't personally checked this though. 

[JCarey]

One section of Chopin's Fantasie Impromtu is has a part where the run on the right hand is indentical to a spot in Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.