scale progression & regularity...

[casparma]

does any one know how to learn the "technique" of a scale by heart, beside C major scale?

for example, I know that D major scale has f and c # by heart, but even though I learn it so hard, every first time I try it on another piano, I would strike one note wrong.

I really want to know this so it would be much more efficient when I encounter a scale progression in one piece without relearning a scale every time.

Till now, the most common scales in my scores are c, d, g, f major. only c and g major I can play casually. For d and f, beside hitting the wrong note, some interval times between two notes are not regular, especially the last 3 notes, for example, b, c#, and d in d major.


please help

thanks

[casparma]

Ok..

in another word, How can I practice a scale so that the interval timing is regular at faster and faster speed?

the very annoying part of LH is that when play c major scale fast, the interval between some notes is not constant....


please help

thanks

[Bob]

Um... practice?   Not sure quite what to say.

Learn a scale a week.  Do all the majors.  Then the minors, all three forms.  Find a tempo you consider you have "mastered" the scale and use that for all of them.  Start with two octaves up and down.  Then there is the standard four octaves up/down or two up, contract up/down, go up, go down, contrary again and back down to the starting notes.

Don't forget the arpeggios.

Play them enough so you don't have to think about them, so you "know" them.  That's how you get the technique -- a little practicing every day for a long time.

[casparma]

Bob, How can you play arpeggio on a scale?

I mean, a major scale consists 7 notes, and one hand only has 5 fingers..... How can you play every note simultaneously with only 5 fingers?


UNless I misinterpret the meaning of "arpeggio"?

any one can give a handy aid here?

thanks

[steve jones]

You should probably read the Chang book, it goes into detail about that very question.

[max_malinou]

Yes you misinterpreted the word arpeggio.
An arpeggio is a succession of notes from a scale. A common arpeggio would involve first, third and fifth notes from the scale.
Take a C major scale for instance, an arpeggio could be C - E - G - C (note that there could be dozens of arpeggios, particularly if you play jazz, including sixth or seventh notes...).

[casparma]

Yes, I did read the Chang's book before making such thread.

It basically gives 3 practicing methods related to scale progression:

1) paralel set exercise.

2) finger independence

3) Thumb over and Thumb under.


But I dont know how to measure what is considered "sucessful"

At the meantime, I am practicing using (2) and (3) approaches, but, how is finger independance related to scale progression? or what is the importance of finger independance?

secondly, For how fast should I practice Thumb over? Because rhythm becomes unregular when I play Thumb under "fast".


thanks max for the help btw.


Please help here

thanks

[hans]

Hi Bob,

I don't understand your way to play scales: The first would be up and down 4 octaves completely as I always use it, but the alternative way: "two up and contract up/down, go up, go down, contrary again and back down to the starting notes"? Could you explain it in other words? In my understandig, the right hand would play 4 up and later 4 down but the left only 2?

Thanks
Hans

[Bob]

I think someone answered the arp concern.

The contrary stuff.  I'm typing quick here.

It's like the 4 8ves up/down but with contrary injected in the middle

Up 2 8ves
Contrary out and back
Up 2 more 8ves to the top of 4 8ves, where you end up on top when doing 4 8ves
Down 2 8ves, back to the middle
Contrary again, just like before
Then back down 2 8ves to the starting place

[casparma]

sorry, but I dont understand:

Why do people mean by:

1) contract

2) contrary??

please elaborate.

thanks alot

[hans]

Hi Bob,

thank you, I think I've got it.

@casparma,

I suppose, left hand down and right hand up (and vice versa), in German I would say "gegenläufig".

See you
Hans

[casparma]

so, is that for "contrary" or "contract"?

[Bob]

Parallel is both hands moving the same direction.

Contrary is hands moving in opposite directions -- away or towards.

There's another term for one note (hand) staying the same while the other moves.  I won't say I forget the term, but if someone else would like to help explain I won't complain.  Omni.. something?   Come on brain.....

Those terms go for hand movement or for note movement.

If I wrote contract it was a typo.


If you play the scale daily it should become fairly ingrained.  You can "see" the scale on the keys and if your using music in that key you can read the key -- like knowing that the F and C are sharp in the key of D Major.

Just do a scale a week.  Get the fingerings and notes down first -- one or two octaves.  Be able to play it without making any mistakes.  Then without having to think much about it.  That's doable in a week I would think.

[pianistimo]

one way to practice the C major scale (since it is the easiest) is two octaves in rhythms of two, three octaves in rhythms of three, and four in rhythms of four, and finally the whole scale in beat of 1 for seven notes (each C on the beat).

once you get a feel for this type of gradual practice you can start learning the scales according to the circle of fifths.

i tell my students that the letter lines (how many lines make up each letter) tell you how many sharps.  D=2 sharps (two lines to write letter D)  A=3 sharps E=four sharps B(if written in greek style triangles) =5 sharps F#= 6 sharps (C# - just remember)

anyway - that seems to help if you also know the order of the sharps since they each follow the same order (adding one more sharp each time): 

FAT CATS GROW DURING AN EVENING BBQ  is my sharp mantra

*you can get fancy with the C scale (starting way down low in the bass - c2 lh c3 rh) and play 2 octaves up - two octaves contrary (out/in) 2 more octaves up/ down - 2 octaves contrary - 2 octaves down - two octaves contrary - 2 more down. fine

[casparma]

Thanks for all the responses..

To be honest, my right hand, in my view, is at least adequate in speed and rhythm for scale major c, d, and g... however, it is left hand that is lame, despite I am left handed. Every time I play with left hand, even the major c scale, there is always inevitable strain, which does not occur in my right hand....

Is this a physical problem? I mean, it is impossible for one hand to be so much more flexible in control than the other since one brain controls both hands, right?

[hans]

Hi Bob,

...
Omni.. something?
...

"Omnidirectional"?

Hans

[gilad]

hey wow pianistimo that pretty smart with all the lines and that .

[Bob]

Oblique.  That's when one voice stays the same and the other moves.

[pianistimo]

what was suggested to me in working the left hand was to take the patterns that you play and block them (play all the notes together).  for instance, if you take a difficult pattern and break it down into 4321  321 etc and play all the notes together in chunks.  see how quickly you can make it up and down the keyboard doing this.  some scales start with the middle finger - so just play the one note and then the chunks.  you can start visualizing what you are going to play BEFORE you play it.  this eliminates many mistakes. 

the left hand sometimes wants to sag to the left toward the pinky (unlike the strong rh in many people).  catch yourself and put a quarter on the top of your hand or just tell yourself you're going to hold your left hand more level.  it will help the evenness of your playing.  don't worry about fully touching the pinky to the keyboard when it's not playing - just worry about the other fingers.  if you are anything like me, you have a short pinky!

[casparma]

thx pianistimo for ur reply..

but, what is a "quarter"? I mean, beside 1/4, what do you mean?

[rc]

thx pianistimo for ur reply..

but, what is a "quarter"? I mean, beside 1/4, what do you mean?

The coin, it will fall off if your hand becomes too uneven. I'm not sure if that's a very healthy plan though, could force a person to use their arms in unnatural ways and cause damage.

[casparma]

thanks rc

[pianistimo]

agreed about using the quarter just to get 'the idea.'

[charleyg]

I still don't understand abou the contrary/contract/up/down thing.  I'm trying to get it, but I'm just not sure.  Here's an idea.  Is it close?

RH play 3 octaves up, say C3 to C4 to C5 to C6.  At the same time, LH play 2 octaves up and one octave down, say C2 to C3 to C4 down to C3.  That way, during the 3rd octave, the hands are moving apart (to C3 and C6) ending up 2 octaves apart.  Then they again play an octave in contrary motion, LH ascending from C3 to C4 and RH descending from C6 to C5, ending up 1 octave apart.  Then do one more octave ascending in parrallel to C5 and C6.

Then reverse it.

Is that what you were saying?

[casparma]

charleyg,

I also find bob's instruction:

"Up 2 8ves
Contrary out and back
Up 2 more 8ves to the top of 4 8ves, where you end up on top when doing 4 8ves
Down 2 8ves, back to the middle
Contrary again, just like before
Then back down 2 8ves to the starting place"

vague.


Maybe some one here can elaborate a bit more concisely...

[whynot]

I like Bob's idea.  Since some people are confused, I'll take a shot at re-phrasing it.  Let me know if this works.
     Start with LH on the C two octaves below middle C (just so we're all picturing the same thing).
     RH will be one octave higher.
     Play two octaves going up (your LH will now be on middle C).
     Play one or two octaves DOWN with LH and, at the same time, play one or two octaves UP
             with RH.  This is the contrary motion part.
     Now play your way back to LH on middle C and RH an octave above.
     Play two more octaves going up (your LH will now be two octaves above middle C).
     Play two octaves going down (LH will be on middle C again).
     Play one or two octaves in opposite directions again, then come back to the middle like before.
     Play two octaves going down to where you started.

It's just a good way to play around within the scales, and you can make up your own ways, too. 

As far as remembering what notes to play, I think people have given good advice.  It is also very helpful to make your own discoveries in new keys and find out how they look, how they sound, and how they feel.  One way to do this is to pick out a simple melody by ear, like a little child's song.  Learn how to play it very well in C major.  Then just pick a new starting note--any note--and figure out how to play the song from there.  Everything will be different, and you will have to guess at first and make mistakes, but you will learn a lot in this way about different keys and how they work.  If you keep making experiments like that, you will become very good at understanding scales and melodies.


 

[Bob]

Save some time and cut one of the contrary motions in that exercise too.  It's only scales after all.