Demonstrations. Why don't piano teachers do it?

[dinosaurtales]

Is there some kind of unwritten "style" rule that says never to play for the student?  My current teacher used to perform all over the place in recitals and symphonies, but she rarely demonstrates things for me in a lesson.  When she does, it's a technique thing, and it's easy to see she plays like the wind.  If I take a ski lesson or hockey lesson, every basic move or drill is demonstrated in a variety of ways.  So why not piano?  (I have been taking a survey - other teacher don't demonstrate either)

How come?

[crazy for ivan moravec]

my teacher doesn't demonstrate coz he is so bad with sightreading!!! but when he's played the piece, he will play a concert during a lesson. hahaha!

sometimes it's good for the teacher not to demonstrate because we tend to think of what he/she said really hard in our minds. but i still believe that you learn a lot from their demonstrations(good ones, that is) because experiencing music is a better teacher than just saying things.

[fliszt]

a piano teacher teaches you how to play... it isnt really necessary for him to play. It is quite logical if he can... but he doesnt have to. My gymnastic teacher cant do gymnastig but he can explain it to me

[fliszt]

and i forgot.... if your piano teacher plays it for you,, then your going to play like he or she does..

[pianistimo]

some students like it and others don't.  i'm glad to have had several teachers that did.  the last one quite a lot - and it DID help.  you can see the technique, hear the sound that was in your teachers head, and feel the emotion.  i don't copy everything - every emotion - since i want to have my own (probably lack of it) but i strive to copy what is meaningful to me.  i notice that piano to serious performers is a lot more work than i realized - pushing the 'envelope of sound' more.  i tend to get stuck in my ways and the only way for me to change is to hear someone else play with more 'emoting.' 

[berrt]

My teacher plays/demonstrates a lot - is that unusual? Also plays the right/left hand while i play the other part and then adapts extremely flexible to my "rubato" (sometimes im slowing down at harder parts).

B.

[maryruth]

I play for my students frequently.  When I asked my teacher from childhood (who taught me for 10 years) what she regretted most about her teaching she said,  "What I regret most is not having played for my students more.  I came from a school that shunned that and said if we play for them they won't figure it out on their own, but I rarely came across anyone who had any real talent.  If you don't play for them they never hear what beautiful playing should sound like....Play often so they know what beautiful music is supposed to sound like.  Most won't figure it out on their own."

[whynot]

As with Berrt, my teacher demonstrates--much more than he explains things.  And he sometimes plays lightly along with me, too, which I really enjoy for some reason.  I follow the logic that a teacher needs to be able to teach the thing, which isn't exactly the same as doing it.  But if the teacher CAN do it, why shouldn't she/he?  I play a little bit for my students each lesson, both to show specific technical things and more general expressive ideas.  I am careful not to hog their playing time, but they do need to hear and see how it all works and keep imagining higher levels of playing.  How will they know what that sounds like unless they keep hearing it?  Especially early on.  I also follow the logic of wanting students to develop their own style and not copy the teacher, and I used to be my own reasoning against listening to other recordings of my pieces--maybe I would "catch" the other pianist's style and not have my own.  But I have become more relaxed about this.  Students won't get very far by only knowing their own style.  They need to know what good performers do, then they have a much broader idea of what their options are.  So I do play for my students and share my interpretive ideas, and make sure they are ABLE to do what I'm talking about.  I want them to have it as an option, but they know I don't insist that they use it in the piece.

[quantum]

I have had my share of both kinds of teachers, and I'd rather prefer the demonstrator kind.  You can only go so far with words, some things can only be learned by seeing and hearing.  You can talk about a particular sound all you want, but it does no good if you can't hear it. 

One of my teachers used her demonstrating ability to correct my technique.  She would immitate what I was doing, then show me how to play with the correct technique.  I found this extreemly helpful.  She constantly played passages which seemed troubling to me, and  compared the movements to how she played.  This helped her form an explanation of the techniqe, how it related to my current playing, and how I could improve or correct it. 

I also had a teacher in university who constantly loved to demonstrate for all his students.  On some occasions students would hear a performance of a piece in it's entiretiy.  He also played excerpts of pieces he was currently working on to demonstrate the process of studying a piece. 

[mschopinliszt]

As a teacher, i ALWAYS demonstrate how the piece is supposed to sound - finished product= when i assign the work.  Most of the time, my plans for individual students are made long in advance of introduction, so i have time to practice them if unfamiliar.  Also, i ALWAYS make a good quality CD for them, for reference.   After that, i ask them to research the composer, the frame of mind, what was going on when he[she] wrote it.  This gives them a basis for establishing their own interpretation.  As they work on the piece, i'll demonstrate technical passages from the right side of the piano as needed, but i want it to be THEIR product, not what i think it should be...ultimately. 

Also, every recital i hold I'll play a piece at the end just to ensure the parents know teacher is at least a few steps ahead of the students.  I've found they appreciate this.  Last Sunday we had our Christmas program.  I played Prokofiev Toccata... now several want to work on this, but i made it clear - it's a very mature piece, technically...and we'll *work* up to it...later....

When a teacher demonstrates for a student, they're letting them know indirectly that they're professional performers.  I know, not all do that ...and they're still excellent teachers, but there's an element of *awe* in students' eyes [and parents] after a hearing,  that legitimizes all the words we speak each week during lessons. 

[cora]

I like to demonstrate a lot. But often, I have a student try a piece before I demonstrate it. I think it's also important to demonstrate good posture and the sheer delight I have in playing the piano and making mistakes too! I think they like it when I make at least a few errors.

A lot of teachers are too scared to perform for their students. But you can always stress that you have to know about 800 pieces, so it's no wonder you flub up occasionally. And why not just admit that you'd need more time to improve your interpretation of it?

[stormx]

Hi !!

Just 1 year playing, but 2 teachers so far 

The first one, never played for me.

The current one, often plays to demonstrate me how something should sound. He is a very good sightreader, so he has no problems playing flawless my grade 3 pieces 

As student, i clearly prefer the teacher that plays in the class in order to demonstrate something.

 

[BoliverAllmon]

My teacher says he would like to teach me how to fish, not give me a fish.  He does demonstrate technique things though.

[alzado]

You will find other threads in the recent past that address this a lot.

Where this has come up, some students report that in a one-hour lesson, as much as 20 minutes is taken up with the teacher playing pieces for the student.  Some students say that the teacher never assigns a new piece without playing it several times for the student.

Frankly, I personally would be VERY negative about this.  My teacher seldom touches the keys, although to show me an error in my rhythm, she may reach over with her right hand and play a phrase, and say --  "it goes like this."  Once she played a couple of measures of 4 against 3  -- again this would be a rhythm issue.

I have half-hour lessons, and we always struggle to get through the lesson material.  Taking liberal amounts of time to listen to the teacher would seem to be disasterous.

I shouldn't say this, but I wonder if some of this is showing off in front of the student -- playing with a big sneer on one's face, showing bravura and "panache", and making the poor student feel like a "bug." 

But that may be very unfair.  I myself am not a piano teacher, but as a senior citizen who has dabbled with piano for many many years, I have had quite a few piano teachers.  And like everyone, I have my opinion.

No offence intended if some contributors to this thread are hard-core demonstrators.

[whynot]

You make an excellent point about the possibility of teachers taking up too much of a student's playing time.  I am guessing from your "big sneer" comment that you may have had a teacher who did not use demonstration as a genuine help and encouragement, but as an indulgence of ego, maybe? and that really is a shame.  I know what you're talking about, although hopefully it doesn't happen that way in most cases.  Because a short (!) demonstration, the right thing shown at the right time, could be informative and inspiring, or sometimes it's just a faster and more accurate way to show something than verbal description.  But you're right, the lesson time is fleeting and precious, and it's the only chance for the student to play for the teacher, so you would hope that any other playing is of real teaching value.     

[Kassaa]

As a teacher, i ALWAYS demonstrate how the piece is supposed to sound - finished product= when i assign the work.  Most of the time, my plans for individual students are made long in advance of introduction, so i have time to practice them if unfamiliar.  Also, i ALWAYS make a good quality CD for them, for reference.   After that, i ask them to research the composer, the frame of mind, what was going on when he[she] wrote it.  This gives them a basis for establishing their own interpretation.  As they work on the piece, i'll demonstrate technical passages from the right side of the piano as needed, but i want it to be THEIR product, not what i think it should be...ultimately. 

Also, every recital i hold I'll play a piece at the end just to ensure the parents know teacher is at least a few steps ahead of the students.  I've found they appreciate this.  Last Sunday we had our Christmas program.  I played Prokofiev Toccata... now several want to work on this, but i made it clear - it's a very mature piece, technically...and we'll *work* up to it...later....

When a teacher demonstrates for a student, they're letting them know indirectly that they're professional performers.  I know, not all do that ...and they're still excellent teachers, but there's an element of *awe* in students' eyes [and parents] after a hearing,  that legitimizes all the words we speak each week during lessons. 

Seriously, It would be crap if my teacher did that really...  Teacher's words don't need to be legimitized. What you do is just plain intimidation, which doesn't help creating a good relationship between teacher and student. Most teacher's words don't need to be legimitized since they are teacher's and they are right most of the time. If I really want to hear something played I can just ask though, and technique things she demonstrates.

My teacher says he would like to teach me how to fish, not give me a fish.  He does demonstrate technique things though.

Exactly.

[Jacey1973]

It seems to vary between teachers?

I always thought a good teacher would demonstrate as much as is needed. As sometimes it is easier to demonstrate a point you're trying to make rather than to try and explain it.

My teacher always demonstrates (in terms of technique and performance/interpretation aspects), i find it's hugely valuble (the only thing is it is slightly annoying when he sight reads a piece perfectly i've been working on for a few months and says "oh excuse my playing i'm just sight reading to give you an idea"  )

[ada]

My teacher simply refuses to demonstrate how to play a piece for me, even if I beg him. The only thing he'll demonstrate is techniquey stuff, like high finger lifts or correct thumb action in an arpeggio.

 I think this is because if he does, I'll just imitate what he does, rather than working out how to play a particular section myself. 

I think this is a good strategy which helps sight reading and makes you more self-sufficient in your playing.

[dorfmouse]

I think this is because if he does, I'll just imitate what he does, rather than working out how to play a particular section myself.

Surely he could demonstrate more than one possible interpretation? Otherwise unless you have the chance to listen to lots of recordings or have lots of confidence to experiment you are just as likely to get stuck in a rut of your own ideas. (Well at least I am!)  Teachers I had when I was younger hardly ever did demonstrate apart from technical points; one was left to interpret as best as one could which usually meant sticking slavishly to the given expression markings etc.  When I was older and took up piano again and able to buy CDs and go to concerts I could barely believe the range of expressive possibilities that opened up. And to occasionally experience the delight of hearing a master play some simple piece one had plodded through all unaware of its real beauty eg a Beethoven bagatelle or Mozart's Sonata Facile had me running back to learn them again.

My teacher always demonstrates (in terms of technique and performance/interpretation aspects), i find it's hugely valuble (the only thing is it is slightly annoying when he sight reads a piece perfectly i've been working on for a few months and says "oh excuse my playing i'm just sight reading to give you an idea"  )

Oh yes!
My present teacher  demonstrates very naturally without taking over and I find it helpful in other ways. The physical movements and sense of ease at the keyboard are quite catching, at least temporarily(!) and imitation is so much more powerful than trying to follow a load of verbal instructions. I also like watching when he learns a few bars in front of me if I'm having a particular problem with a section .... it's like seeing one of Bernhard's treatises on efficient learning come to life but done in about 2 minutes - section learned, perfect and at speed ...    Grit teeth with envy and resolve to discipline practice better again ......

[BoliverAllmon]

I think the teacher should vary their stand on demonstrations based on the student. I for one am a very visual oriented person. I have learned more about technique from watching people, then having it spoken to me. My friend on the other hand isn't wired this way. I still don't like the idea of a teacher playing through the piece, but just touch the high points and show the technique stuff.

[cjp_piano]

Demonstrating is essential in my view!!  I don't know why other teachers don't do it. 

Some think that if you play it for them, they will play it like you.  This is completely false.  My most recent teacher always demonstrated how to execute a passage, but all of her students played different from her and from each other. 

Demonstrating is efficient because many times, you can explain something like: "to play legato, CONNECT the fingers to each other by not releasing the finger until slightly after the next finger has played" or something confusing like that.  But what really works is saying, "let's play an echo game: listen and watch my hand, and then echo me!"

I don't know what I would do if I just had to sit and EXPLAIN everything!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

Demonstration is essential I agree! You cannot put in words how to play the piano or people would just become masters of the piano just by reading. A good teacher of course teachers with guiding words but also demonstrates Good and Bad playing so the student can observe the same in their own playing.

[sonatainfsharp]

I once studied for a semester with a Hungarian teacher that spoke not a single word of English. The lessons were 100% demonstration and it was wonderful.

I probably demonstrate for my students much more than I need to, but something "hearing it" can be extremely powerful than the spoken logic behind it.

[pianowelsh]

Your teacher dosent demonstrate?  We were all taught that this should be the primary way of  teaching because so much can be learnt without talking and wasting time - particularly when teaching the young.  Have to say I hadnt noticed till now but i do demonstrate quite a lot BUT only after a student has done the background work - i have several students with very good ears who tend just to copy and not read (ive got wise to their little games!!)  I have to say I wish my teachers hadnt demonstrated as much on me and had actually explained in clear words.  I had one teacher who did nothing but sit down and play to me all lesson - was the most boring time of my life - bless him i think he thought he was inspiring me!! Some teachers particularly those who are less active now are scared to demonstrate particularyl when teaching advanced students working on rep like gaspard and late big Chopin etc so find other ways of explaining.  I can understand their approach because they can communicate how to do something or inspire the right action out of the student without physically being capable of doing it anymore.   I did have one young teacher though who had the annoying ability to sit at the other piano while I was learning  pieces (ie Brahms Rhapsodies etc) in the lesson and having never played them before and having never seen the score would play them back to me form the other piano upto tempo and note perfect - but he was a rare talent - whew!

[lagin]

My teacher always used to demonstrate, then keep demonstrating, and then keep going to the next page, and the next.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!  I was like, my turn please!  I actually started saying, "But I'll never get a turn!" whenever she asked me to switch places with her.  She caught on really quick, and only demonstrates now if I ask her.   It could also be that now I can play the pieces better than her:   We'll probably be switching places more next grade, again.  She can sight read better than me, so she dominates more at the beginning of a piece, until I learn it properly, and can play it better than she can sightread.

[bernhard]

Demonstration is essential. Playing for the student to listen is not – however nice it may be.

At its most basic level(and there are many other levels to add later on to this most basic level) piano playing is done by the motional mind (which involves everything that has to do with movements, co-ordination and the five senses). The motional mind can only learn by imitation. Therefore the purpose of demonstration is to provide a model for the student to imitate.

Is the student going to become a copy of the teacher, then? Surely not. But at the beginning stages where s/he knows nothing, s/he must imitate the teacher. Eventually, s/he will develop his/her own peculiar and individual pattern of movements. But at first s/he must be shown[i/].

The importance of demonstration can be clearly seen in threads that deal with the palying of scales Thumb under (TU) or Thumb over (TO). You can read those threads (and there is quite a number of them), and no amount of explaining is going to help you. Yet five seconds with a teacher (who knows about it – not every teacher does) will dispel any doubts. Not only that, you will start by imitating the teacher´s movements, but soon you will realize that you can do the same movement in a slightly different way that for you
happens to be more comfortable.

The same is true of any motional art: dance, Olympic gymnastics, skipping rope, martial arts, walking, etc. Without demonstration the beginner will never have a clue. Many times, even the demonstration will not help – the teacher must correct the student: he may think he is imitating but he is not – so most of the times, even watching a video (= demonstration after all) is not going to help. You need not only the demonstration as well as the feedback.

A teacher who will not demonstrate is either well above the level of the student and the student would do better finding a teacher more to his level (you would not expect a Nobel prize in literature to be good at teaching someone how to read, even though he may excel as a teacher at the post-grad dept of the local University), or the teacher is lazy, or the teacher does no know himself what is it that he is asking the student to do. Many times, he may well be able to do it[i/] but be completely at sea about how he actually does it[i/]. This is often the case with the playing of fast, pearly scales – which can only be done with the thumb over – yet the teacher insists in demanding form the student that he uses thumb under. Yet when the teacher himself plays the scales, he clearly uses the thumb over. Other interesting examples of completely misguided verbal instructions are Cortot´s “Rational principles of piano technique” and of course Hanon´s “Virtuoso Pianist”.


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[zheer]

Demonstration is essential. Playing for the student to listen is not – however nice it may be.

. Other interesting examples of completely misguided verbal instructions are Cortot´s “Rational principles of piano technique” and of course Hanon´s “Virtuoso Pianist”.


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

       Could you explain what you mean by that, because my x piano teacher dumped me recently when i refused to do dotted rythm excersice's.

[bernhard]

       Could you explain what you mean by that, because my x piano teacher dumped me recently when i refused to do dotted rythm excersice's.

For instance, Cortot devotes a whole chapter of his book to the passing under of the thumb, which he reckons is essential to fast, pearly scales. Of course, it is impossible to use thumb under for fast scales. You must use thumb over (which may explain why Cortot´s runs can be so sloppy).

Yet, the thumb under idea is so ingrained in certain pianists that even though at speed they may be using thumb over, when they slow down to show you what they are doing, they revert to thumb under (they can get away with it at slow speeds). The thumb over is completely unconscious. They do it, but they are not aware how they do it. In such cases, videoing the teacher and watching a slow motion rendition of the video may be far more useful and informative than a - misguided - demonstration by the teacher.

Almost every chapter of Cortot´s book has misinformation of the kind above (even though he was a superb pianist in regards to musicality, his misinformed ideas on technique show up in his playing).

I have written a lot about Hanon and why I believe it to be a waste of time. Have a look here for a summary and for related links:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.msg147163#msg147163
(Why Hanon is a waste of time – or not -  summary of arguments and many relevant links)

As for dotted rhythms, they can be one of the most powerful and useful practice tricks when applied to specific passages of music in order to solve specific technical problems. They are completely useless when used to practise technique applied to other technical exercises (most often to Hanon). But then this is true about everything else. A screwdriver will work wonders when applied to  screws, but will be pretty useless to tackle nails. So, the solution and the problem always walk hand in hand.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[teresa_b]

Dear Bernhard,

It's nice to see you back!  I like your comments about the thumb techniques.  I was "taught" thumb-under years ago, but indeed, I realize that I do not do that when playing rapid scale passages or arpeggios.  Instead I move my arm/hand to re-place the thumb quickly.  Somehow I learned this inadvertently, as did the teachers you mention. 

All the best, Teresa

[chopinfan_22]

My piano teacher demonstrates all the time. He's a professor at a local college. He even played Chopin's Etude Op. 25 No. 11 for me. I was quite pleased.   

[timothy42b]

Every trombone teacher I've had has played duets and/or demonstrated.  There is no better way of imparting the mental concept of tone and articulation, and without an internal mental concept only sheer luck lets you improve.  For brass instrument teachers, demonstrating is considered standard practice. 

My piano teacher usually demonstrates only after I do something particularly awkward and struggle a bit, then shows me the easier way. 

I wonder if there's not a disadvantage to demonstrating in that it can reduce the amount of directed attention. 

Warning - wacko theory alert.

Purely informational learning may be accomplished consciously, explicitly, and verbally.  For example, all a calculus teacher has to do is tell me l'Hopital's Rule and learning has taken place.  But motional learning is very different.  The teacher may know but not be able to describe what motions are required, or may not even know, or may be required to develop precursor motions.

Imitation is one way of course.  But just as large amounts of communication are believed to be nonverbal, so may large amounts of instruction.

The reason great teachers get good results may have little to do with their technical understanding of the subject.  In fact, the understanding may be quite wrong.  However, if their nonverbal communication is reinforcing (rewarding) correct motions, they may be getting results without either teacher or student being consciously aware of what is going on. 

[bernhard]

Warning - wacko theory alert.

Purely informational learning may be accomplished consciously, explicitly, and verbally.  For example, all a calculus teacher has to do is tell me l'Hopital's Rule and learning has taken place.  But motional learning is very different.  The teacher may know but not be able to describe what motions are required, or may not even know, or may be required to develop precursor motions.

Imitation is one way of course.  But just as large amounts of communication are believed to be nonverbal, so may large amounts of instruction.

The reason great teachers get good results may have little to do with their technical understanding of the subject.  In fact, the understanding may be quite wrong.  However, if their nonverbal communication is reinforcing (rewarding) correct motions, they may be getting results without either teacher or student being consciously aware of what is going on. 

That seems to me a pretty good theory.