What key is the first piece you teach normally in ?

[m1469]

I am asking this because I like the idea of teaching the B major scale first.  But I also like the idea of  not teaching things, including scales, in a vacuum.  I have recently purchased a decent chunk of new music and between that and my former browsings, I think there is not a "beginner" piece in B major.  I suppose I can transpose it and re-write it, or compose something myself, but I am wishing there were truly beginner pieces in B major. 

(know of any ?)

I am wondering what others may do in this situation ?  I am still working out my strategies for teaching all of the scales.  But most music for beginners are in the 'key of C' and I could teach both B major and C but there seems little logic in learning just those two together, and then B major is just sort of randomly flapping in the wind (maybe even naked ). 
 
I think you get the idea, so I will quiet down now.

Any thoughts ?


m1469

[PaulNaud]

Why B Major?

[leahcim]

Why B Major?

Scale that fits the hand most naturally aiui.

m1469, why not just transcribe a beginner piece that isn't in B major? [edit: doh, like you said in your post anyway I'll read it next time ]

[PaulNaud]

According to Chopin, it's B Major!!!

[arensky]

I start them in C major, it provides instant gratification and makes the parents happy!    I usually show them how to play their pieces in G after a month or so, and they have usually found the black keys by then but they find that confusing, but I help them with it anyway. I like your idea; B Major is a better way of introducing black keys than F# !! The way the keys fall naturally into their two groups of 2 and three, with F# being the begining of the second group;it will make explaining F# easier also. It's hard to explain without a keyboard but I understand your logic; I think it's brilliant!   And it will facilitate the "whole step/half step" process; I only have one beginner at the moment, I will try this on him when he returns in two weeks.

BTW sort of related, I have discarded the "little C position" that most books start with, you know when both thumbs are planted on middle C. I started this young man (8 years old ) with "big C position", where the LH and RH are both over CDEFG an octave apart. This avoids confusion later on, and accelerates the technical process. Then you go back to the pieces they skipped, tell them "oh that was too easy for you, you are brighter than that" and they get all happy and proud!  
Positive reinforcement, and time saving, all in one...  

[PaulNaud]

Sorry I thought Maya was talking about B flat Major....I was daydreaming!!!
Chopin would use it only as an exercice.

[m1469]

Scale that fits the hand most naturally aiui.

Yes, also I think it is kinesthetically and visually well-defined.  Plus, it can be learned at the very first lesson even with very young students.  The first thing I do with them (if complete beginners) is have them find the groups of 2 (with appropriate B major scale fingerings) and groups of 3 (with appropriate B Major scale fingerings) black notes.  Playing the B major scale becomes a very natural step after that and they don't even know what they are doing.  They are just having fun doing it.

m1469, why not just transcribe a beginner piece that isn't in B major? [edit: doh, like you said in your post anyway I'll read it next time ]

Yeah, I will if I have to (of course there would probably be some issues involved).  But I am so curious as to why there are not beginner pieces in the key of B major ?  I mean, teaching that scale first is not a brand new concept.  So what's the deal ?

m1469

[PaulNaud]

It is difficult for a beginner to read a piece in B Major because of the 5 sharps. That's why all  methods start with C Major. It's a matter of music reading.

[m1469]

It is difficult for a beginner to read a piece in B Major because of the 5 sharps. That's why all  methods start with C Major. It's a matter of music reading.

Well, I think that is very psychological.  If they have no preconcieved notions about what is difficult and what is not as far as reading music goes, there is no reason it would initially look any more difficult in B Major than in C Major (as far as the notes within the staff). 

Plus if B Major is the first scale they learn, and they get to really know all of the notes that are in it, the sharps are already well defined for them.  "Those symbols stand for all of the black notes that you play.  Remember which ones they are ?" yadda yadda...  I don't know.


m1469

[pianistimo]

i think you could learn to sight read in C major and then have some rote learning in B major without showing them the music.  i think it would confuse them to have so many sharps to look at if they were sightreading.  the circle of fifths is easy to follow (adding one sharp at a time) when learning pieces (scale and song in same key).  for 3-7 year olds - i really like to keep them in tetrachord patterns (4321 1234) for the scale AND the songs.  forget chords, alberti bass, and all that stuff until they learn to sightread - is my motto.  so many students never learn to sightread when they learn how easy it is to play by ear.  the first few years of piano is HARD work.  maybe just a little at a time (sightreading) and then fun rote stuff, too.

i've learned in tutoring reading that 5 letters are about all they can handle per session.  i used to have this phonics book that suggested saying the SOUND of the letter before having them write the letter (can you write the letter that sounds like 'buh').  ok - translating that to reading music - instead of always sightreading from the music to the keyboard - maybe putting a large blank grand staff up and first asking them to write the note 'middle c' - explain how it is in the middle of the staff - and how each progressive C is in a similar position (3 spaces up and 3 spaces down) on each staff.  it is the same for two octaves (each are on the furthest of the additional two ledger lines).  when they can write and play the skeleton notes of C - then they can more easily figure out what's in between.

[leahcim]

Well, I think that is very psychological.  If they have no preconcieved notions about what is difficult and what is not as far as reading music goes, there is no reason it would initially look any more difficult in B Major than in C Major (as far as the notes within the staff). 

Yeah, I agree.

I think if you start with C major. The first pieces are usually some 5 finger positions that you initially learn along with the notes of the stave are FACE and Every good boy deserves football [or similar], effectively your thumb is C, index finger is D and so on.

So you build a schema, which'll have some of the following problems.

- When you play C E with 1 and 2, say,, then the link between finger and note is lost.

- When you see a piece in F, you then have to consciously remember to flatten the B. So the link between the stave and the note you play is broken. In addition it's now tied to something at the beginning of the piece. Not only that, it's every b not just the one that's marked at the beginning.

- When you add in the bass clef you either have more phrases and rhymes, or because it looks like 5 lines with dots the same as what you learnt was "F A C E" etc, you try to relate it to what you've learnt before by "adding 2 letters" . So what looks like G becomes a mental process of 'saying' "g, a, B" [and then in F the B is flattened too just to add to the fun]

Perhaps some of these stages are stages you have to go through. It's similar to learning a simple rule like adding s to make plurals and then kids saying "I saw some sheeps" by mistake and having to learn the exceptions.

But things like the bass clef and other key signatures aren't exceptions to the treble clef and C major..

It's just that the "easy" C major and treble clef is easier because you're making the others exceptions to a learnt schema that fits C major and the treble clef. In language quite often the exceptions are just that, you just have to learn them [in other languages deciding whether a chest of drawers or a banana is male or female can just be a case of memorising]

In playing an instrument though, the exceptions [i.e accidentals] are marked and thus not a huge problem. Whereas Bb is the rule in F major. The difference on, say, a guitar is largely irrelevant because the pattern might be 4 2 1, 4 3 1, 3 1 down the strings and the change of key effectively moves the position.

SImilarly the change of key on piano changes the movement and position your hand makes [other things change that too] but if I see F major the relevant finger is over Bb instead of B - because of the key signature way before I get to bar n and start to think about whether that is B or Bb.

e.g Something like moonlight sonata mvt 1 is as easy to play written in the key it is, as opposed to the "simple" transcriptions that switch it to A minor. [Perhaps easier if its patterns fit the hand better].

If it wasn't then there wouldn't be so many beginners like myself making a hash of it. Albeit some may go through a painstaking process to get the notes if they've learnt to read "simple"  music with none or a few sharps and flats rather than picking the notes out by ear, because they hit every problem with their schema and don't have the hand positions for playing in that key.

Ultimately I think you resolve it [i.e if you're going to get to the stage where n sharps and flats are no more daunting than no sharps and flats] by relating the key signature to a change of movement and position of your hand, and relating the notes relative to each other rather than as absolutes.

[ted]

Any contributions I make in this teaching area are only about how my two early teachers taught me. I have no teaching experience myself and no desire to teach. Nonetheless whatever my teachers did must have been right for me and therefore perhaps of interest.

With both my teachers the whole spectrum of keys was thrown at me at once. Not in the sense of "learn all these by next week", although that happened with certain individual chord types,  but just after the manner of playing pieces in lots of keys and improvising in all positions. I think that's probably why I can never answer those posts about "favourite keys" - because one seems as good as another.

Neither of my teachers taught me a scrap of fingering or technique. In retrospect I think the idea, never explicitly stated, was to force me to work out my own according to the musical end. If the musical end was grasped they gave the impression they weren't interested in how I did it. Now and then they made some remark such as , "try using the fifth finger there" or " move your wrist a bit more" but it was very seldom.

So as far as keys were concerned there was no clear, declared process at all. The whole awareness of twelve positions seemed to occur by some sort of mental osmosis. I never saw what either did with their other pupils.

[Bob]

Dang... I hope I didn't say I teach B Major first.  It's an idea to teach it first.  It fits the hand very well.  Typing ideas for the ideal student.

C Major is much easier for a student to understand.  No thinking of raising or lowering pitches required.  Then going to the next scale, adding sharps or flats.  That keep the visual/mental part easier for the student -- F Major is like C Major except B is flat -- It's thinking C Major with one alteration.  Not perfect, but it fits in the lesson formula.  Bb Major has two flats, just like F with an Eb.  Then explaining the order of the flats and sharps.  They can only handle so much at one.

I think there are only two finger patterns for the scales, aren't there?  The 123 1234 on white keys and the index fingers on the inner black keys (groups of twos or threes, they still end up on the inner keys for that hand).  Is that right?


It really depends on the student and how much I want to tailor things.  If the student knows the notes well, maybe B Major.  It might be easier to finger the B Major scale, but it's easier to understand and see plain old C Major.

I guess I lean toward C Major, adding flats/sharps, teaching order of sharps/flats in the key signature, using tetrachords to visualize the next key signature.  Why?  Because the average student will have a tough enough time getting C Major down, with the coordination between two hands and hitting the correct notes/correct fingerings.  They need to control what notes they hit.  I think the thinking behind B Major will mentally tie up the average student -- If they are unsure of the notes, they will have to think the note and then raise it. 

Hmmmm.....  I lean toward C Major, but am somewhat undecided.

[whynot]

All keys.  I do both rote and reading at the beginning, different material for each.  For reading, I keep it down to a few accidentals for a little while, but do use some almost right away--but only written as a proper key signature.  I don't write an extra little flat over all the B's, for example, or allow them to do so.  I have to fight off a lot of parents on this.  How will little Susie remember all those great big scary flats if Mommy doesn't write them in???  GRRRR.  For the rote pieces, I have them play all over the place, usually starting on black keys so they don't avoid them.  If they've heard anyone older talk about piano, they've usually heard some bad rap on sharps and flats and "the hard keys."  So I try to face that right away.  We name all the keys, black and white, the very first lesson.  I also ask them to transpose the written songs almost right away.  Just to play--we don't write them out at that point.  When we start this, I give them a heads-up that they'll be needing some of the black keys to make the music work, then let them just try it.  They make some great observations this way, and then we can start talking about scales and how, if you start a song on a new note, you've jumped into a whole new set of notes... here's what this set sounds like, blah blah blah.  About the B major thing, additionally:  the five-finger position that Chopin used was E major, and I show them that position very early on, and we keep coming back to that as the "basic comfortable position."  B major as a five-finger position is a whole different thing from the scale, so I wouldn't put early beginner songs in this key.  And was it Arensky who advocates for "big" C position, instead of the thumbs sharing middle C?  I love this, I do this too.  They play chords right away and it sounds like real music to them, not baby music, which many children are sensitive about.  Also, then they start out looking at notation that's more typical.  The other way involves a big visual change just when they were getting comfortable.  They can understand this in the first reading lesson, and the fullness of sound is very exciting for them.         

[zheer]

If i were to teach the piano, i would start with C major, Bachs famous prelude and fuge in C major.

[orlandopiano]

Well if you're talking the very very first lessons with a young beginner, I start with G Flat major (G flat pentatonic actually). It's perfect because it allows the kid to play (black keys only) all he wants, impulsively. I play rhythm changes underneath, and it's fail-proof for the kid because any note he plays will fit. It's great for boosting his confidence, creativity, expression, etc. It also allows the kid to focus entirely on rhythm because he doesn't have to think about playing the "correct" notes. They will all fit.

[cjp_piano]

You don't teach major scales in the first week of lessons do you??  When you start teaching major scales, B would be the easiest, but the first pieces they play should probably just be a few notes right? 

I don't have ONE piece that I always start teaching in.  But the pieces are in ALL KINDS of keys, but they aren't really READING it in those keys.  They simply know which notes to play on the piano and read the music by intervals. 

My students actually play in the keys of G flat major, E flat minor, D flat major, B major, F major, G major, and many others. 

I agree that B major scale fits the hands, but they don't really have to READ the scale.  You could certainly compose some simple pieces in B, using the 5-finger pattern or just the black keys (while you play an accompaniment in B).