Steinway quality over cost....Is it worth it?

[pianorama]

     Hello,

Just seeing what you think of Steinway. I personally think they are pretty good pianos, but you can get a better piano of the same price of a different brand. What do you think?

         Lowell

[pianorama]

What, no one wants to spout their opinion? No petty fights over cost versus quality?! I guess I shouldn't have put this as a poll.

[pianogrl815]

I really love steiways! The touch is perect; not to deep which I hate and overall just about perfect. lol- Im crazy about them and freak out when I get to compete on one. But, they are ReAlLy overpriced.

[dinosaurtales]

Steinway can make a very good piano.  They aren't making many good ones the last few years, IMO.  I think they are quite overpriced, considering what the same money will buy in  another brand.  i think they are resting on an old established reputation, but may find a newer, less-than-desirable reputation developing if they don't get their act together real soon now.

[Axtremus]

pianorama,

What makes you choose "Steinway" for this poll?
Why not choose, say, Bösendoefer or Fazioli or Stuarts or Steingraeber for this poll?

[Waldszenen]

Their quality is deteriorating and overall the ratio of good to crap is increasing at an alarming rate.

And yes, they're hellishly overpriced (but if Steinway is overpriced, that leaves me with no words to describe Fazioli pricetags).

I'd rather buy a Bechstein any day of the week.

[Axtremus]

I know the Bechstein Academy Series are significantly cheaper, but are C.Bechsteins significantly cheaper than Steinways and Faziolis too?

I've asked pianorama why he/she chose Steinway for this poll instead of Bösendorfer/Stuart/Fazioli/Steingräber... Would C.Bechstein not make as good a candidate for this poll?

[yoshiki]

However if you are a professional pianist, it is best for your interest to practice on a Steinway grand (or sometime Yamaha) as it is most likely what you are going to play on in recitals etc.
Honestly other brands pianos are deserved to be placed in concert halls etc.........
I think the Yamahas has the best quality over cost.

[hiline]

Do you? I don't like their sound.I bought an E121 last year and have been disappointed since then.

[pianorama]

pianorama,

What makes you choose "Steinway" for this poll?
Why not choose, say, Bösendoefer or Fazioli or Stuarts or Steingraeber for this poll?

Well, for one, I have very little experience with Fazioli, Bosendofer, Steingraeber, and Stuart & Sons. Infact, except for Stuart & Sons I have never heard of any of these brands before I joined this forum, which was just about a month ago. Regarding Stuart, how much do they usually cost? I've been looking over the internet for a price tag but never found one. A price range for either the 7'6" or the 9'6" woud would be appreciated, if anyone knows. I have heard that Fazioli is rather expensive, but the fact I've never played one made me feel that I shouldn't say anything. I suppose I could have if I wanted to, but I like making questions that I either 1) Am knowledgable about the subject and want to see what others think, or 2) Am curious about something and would like more information about.

Oh, and how do you do the two little dots above the "o" in Bosendofer? I've always wanted to know that.

[pianorama]

I really love steiways! The touch is perect; not to deep which I hate and overall just about perfect. lol- Im crazy about them and freak out when I get to compete on one. But, they are ReAlLy overpriced.

I can tell you really like Steinways! I'm happy when I get to use a Steinway too, but I don't go absolutely crazy like you. lol

[kamike]

Bottom line, you pretty much get what you pay for.  I have played wonderful Steinways that are very competitive with other German pianos for tone and touch.  And I am of the opinion that their quality is improving.  Yes there was a time that things seemed to be going to hell, but that was awhile ago.  I do not think that they are overpriced when you compare them to other pianos in at that level.  All pianos, at that level, could be considered "overpriced," whatever that means.  

Is a Rolls Royce overpriced compared to a Chevy?  You bet.  And which one would YOU rather drive?

[pianorama]

Bottom line, you pretty much get what you pay for.  I have played wonderful Steinways that are very competitive with other German pianos for tone and touch.  And I am of the opinion that their quality is improving.  Yes there was a time that things seemed to be going to hell, but that was awhile ago.  I do not think that they are overpriced when you compare them to other pianos in at that level.  All pianos, at that level, could be considered "overpriced," whatever that means.  

Is a Rolls Royce overpriced compared to a Chevy?  You bet.  And which one would YOU rather drive?

Good point.

[leahcim]

All pianos, at that level, could be considered "overpriced," whatever that means. 

Aside from brand, I guess one factor is that they they tend to be hand built. i.e the cost of making the thing is probably substantial and, it's probably considered as part of what makes the quality better and thus justifies the price.

So it could be considered by how much the more expensive process is justified because it creates a better product over some other cheaper method of producing a piano.

Perhaps there are already examples of parts of the process where, Steinway have decided their product was too expensive to make in a traditional way, and thus cut costs by switching manuf methods themselves. No doubt they would state by doing that they didn't impact the quality otherwise they've made a compromise.

Other manufacturers using methods that allow them to produce a high quality piano more cheaply might try to get as close as they possibly can to the quality that Steinway is associated with.

The closer they get, in principle, the less justified the inflated hand-built price is.

Is a Rolls Royce overpriced compared to a Chevy?  You bet.  And which one would YOU rather drive?

I think here Rolls Royce shares some of the characteristics of the Steinway name / brand and probably answers some of the reason why the thread says "Steinway" and not another make.

It's a name beyond what it is. Any number of other high-quality luxurious cars could be argued [and often are] to be equal or even greater, and maybe cheaper. But "everyone" knows what you mean if you say "Rolls Royce" Similary with "Steinway"

[pianorama]

I see that two people voted "Total crap, totally overpriced, one of my least favourite brands". If that is what they truly think, that is fine with me, but I'm curious. Why do you think they are terrible? If either of the Steinway haters are reading this, please explain why you think they suck.

[iumonito]

I see that two people voted "Total crap, totally overpriced, one of my least favourite brands". If that is what they truly think, that is fine with me, but I'm curious. Why do you think they are terrible? If either of the Steinway haters are reading this, please explain why you think they suck.

Steinway Steinway Steinway.  No, I wasn't turned down by the artist program (I don't think I was ever good enough for something like that, and I would certainly would have tried several other brands before marrying Steinway).  Here is why:

Unlike high-quality pianos (such as Mason & Hamlin, Steingraeber, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bluthner), Steinways have very severe design deficiencies that result in faults such as poor inharmonicity, excessive color change at the passaggio (around e20/f21 in Steinway), excessive string breaking in the capo d'astro register, tuning instability and a limited tonal palette,

The marriage of action and hammers of the Hamburg Steinways is acceptable, but far from remarkable.  I find that Bechsteins (please note I have nto played new ones recently, I am told they are moving towards resembling Steinway more, which I hope is not true) allow for much more control and are much more powerful.  The equation in a Steingraeber is so superior it simply bears no comparison.

Then you have the sound, insipid, boring, souless,  Even a Kawai is more inspired.  If you doubt what I am saying, try Axtremus challenge to identify a Grotrian 225 out of 6 recordings.   Two of the recordings are Kawais and two are Steinways, see which ones you like better.

[gfiore]

 If we're comparing New York Steinways with their  Hamburg counterparts, Hamburg would win hands down with  regards to overall quality control.
 The NY instruments while improving over past years, still don't hold a candle to the immaculately finished instruments coming out of the Hamburg factory.
 There was also mention of a large amount of hand craftsmanship.  You're kidding right? While Steinway employs many hand processes, the NY factory relies on just about the same amount of machine automation as other factories producing tier 1 pianos. Has anyone ever visited the factory in queens? I have several times.

[leahcim]

There was also mention of a large amount of hand craftsmanship.  You're kidding right? While Steinway employs many hand processes, the NY factory relies on just about the same amount of machine automation as other factories producing tier 1 pianos.

Nah I wasn't kidding. Possibly wrong though.

That said, I wasn't trying to suggest that Steinway have more hand processes than anyone else. Especially not other tier one pianos that cost a lot of money

Axtremus had already said you might consider other makes as the subject of the thread - I didn't see any reason to doubt that.

[dinosaurtales]

Bottom line, you pretty much get what you pay for.  I have played wonderful Steinways that are very competitive with other German pianos for tone and touch.  And I am of the opinion that their quality is improving.  Yes there was a time that things seemed to be going to hell, but that was awhile ago.  I do not think that they are overpriced when you compare them to other pianos in at that level.  All pianos, at that level, could be considered "overpriced," whatever that means.  

Is a Rolls Royce overpriced compared to a Chevy?  You bet.  And which one would YOU rather drive?

Bad comparison.  The Rolls would handle like a boat.  If the Chevy was a Z06 I'd take that in a heartbeat!

[Waldszenen]

Then you have the sound, insipid, boring, souless,  Even a Kawai is more inspired.

That's plain bull, IMO.

[pianorama]

That's plain bull, IMO.

Quite.

[pianistimo]

i've been to the factory in queens, thanks to a tour through wcu music dept.  it was then, i realized the same.  you are looking for a soul in the piano, and not just 'nicely made' or 'looks good.'  suppose that they come around about as often as really great stradivarius violins.  it's a matter of chance.  maybe it's ones that henry touches?  anwya,  i DID see henry!  that impressed me even more than the pianos.

if you can afford to buy a steinway, the price is a moot point.  someday - we'll all be able to afford one, if our careers take off!?  (*if i sell the van, and maybe my upright piano, and organ - then i'll take the bus but be really happy practicing).

[iumonito]

Quite.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.  Have you tried out the test?  I found it very educational.  Here is the link:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15167.0.html

(I failed the test, btw, confusing a Kawai for the Grotrian).

This type of blind listening test is very good.  i suspect that if we did it with any regularity in a short period of time we would get good at it and stop bickering about what pianos are good and what pianos are not.

...and pianistimo, if you can afford a steinway, you can afford at least two good pianos of the same size.

[pianistimo]

i don't want just good anymore.  i want excellent.  kawaii is good.  steinway is excellent.  one excellent piano is better than two good ones - unless you know where to get some excellent stuff for good prices.

[pianorama]

i don't want just good anymore.  i want excellent.  kawaii is good.  steinway is excellent.  one excellent piano is better than two good ones - unless you know where to get some excellent stuff for good prices.

Ok, I'll try but I might not be able to tell which brand is which, only which I like better,
But a true, acoustic sound test would probably be more accurate. (versus digital online)

[pianorama]

Hey, there different songs! That's not very fair. I suppose you could challenge what iI just said, but I think it would be a lot fairer if they were all the same song. (Is fairer even a real word? Should it be 'more fair'? Oh well who cares.) And I have no way of even knowing if there is a Steinway or not in the recordings, and if there isn't, this is completely irrelevant to this thread.
 Even though the 'best' piano in the world might not be a Steinway, I still think you're crazy. (And yes, I realize there is no such thing as a very best piano.)

[iumonito]

Hey, there different songs! That's not very fair. I suppose you could challenge what iI just said, but I think it would be a lot fairer if they were all the same song. (Is fairer even a real word? Should it be 'more fair'? Oh well who cares.) And I have no way of even knowing if there is a Steinway or not in the recordings, and if there isn't, this is completely irrelevant to this thread.
 Even though the 'best' piano in the world might not be a Steinway, I still think you're crazy. (And yes, I realize there is no such thing as a very best piano.)

I take no offense and find this quite amusing.  Which of the pianos was your favorite (no cheating here, there is no need)?

It is my opinion that Steinway is, as a general matter, materially inferior to any of the following:

Steingraeber
Bluthner
Mason & Hamlin
Fazioli
Bechstein
August Forster
Kawai

I leave Bosendorfer out beacuse IMO it is a specialty piano (I enjoy it only in Mozart, Haydn and Schubert), but it at least has a personality and a soul, timid and introspected as it is.

Setting aside price, I like the Yamaha 9 footer much better than the Steinway 9 footer, which I find comparable to a Baldwin (Baldwin being the more powerful of the two, but even more unidimensional than the Steinway).   In my limited experience with the Steinway C, I still like the new Yamaha C7s better (even though not so long ago I played a grey market C7 that was close to the worst piano I have ever played in that size).

Skipping the B (for which Yamaha has no equivalent), the Steinway L, M and S are truly sorry pianos.  The O is all right and is the only one I would take over an equivalent Yamaha if they were priced the same.  But not over any of the good pianos in the list on top.

You disagree.  Great.  Buy a Steinway and be yourself.  I just don't recommend that route because I think you can do better and still spend less money.

[hockeyguy]

Iumonito--

I think many Steinway L's can be quite good and in fact are excellent pianos--they're not that much different from O's. I do, however, feel that they are very expensive for their size, and there are better choices at that lofty price range. But they are quality pianos...

In regards to Bosendorfer, why is it a specialty piano as opposed to, say, Bluthner or Bechstein? I do not agree with your assessment of their limited range. Bosies are spectacular for Ravel and Debussy, Beethoven, Haydn, much of Chopin, Brahms, etc...
I do believe they are a little weak for Rachmaninoff, whose pieces require a lot of noise (except for softer pieces like Elegie op.3 #1 for which a Bosie is unequalled), as well as things like ragtime which sounds best with the stringier American pianos.

[pianistimo]

petrov's are nice, too.

[Axtremus]

Oh, and how do you do the two little dots above the "o" in Bosendofer? I've always wanted to know that.

On a Macintosh computer, I'd type "option-u" and then "o" to get "ö." On forums that accept HTML code, I'd type "ö" to get "ö."

You asked about the price range of the Stuarts and Sons pianos. The Stuarts are not imported to the US. There are individuals who ship them in privately, but there is no distributor or dealer who sells the Stuart pianos in the US, hence no pricing data available. But I've seen posts from UK claiming that the Stuarts are priced even higher than Hamburg Steinways. In the US, the Fazioli, Bösendorfer, and Steingräber dealers definitely try to sell these pianos at prices much higher than NY Steinway's (although in Europe, these would sell for less than Steinways of comparable sizes). Though these pianos are so rare in the US that there's insufficient actual pricing data trickled out to indicate just how successful those dealers are at commanding those levels of pricing.

Personally, I like Steinways, and I personally own a Kawai. I wouldn't go as far as iumonito to say that Kawais are generally "more inspired" than Steinways, but I do  like some Kawai models much better than some Steinway models. Then again, I can make the same statement for most combinations of any two different piano brands that you care to cite.

iumonito claimed that Yamaha has no "equivalent" to Steinway's Model B. If by "equivalent," he meant "same size," then I think the C6 and S6, both at 7 feet, would be reasonable "equivalents" of Steinway B.

[iumonito]

Fair enough.  I stand corrected.  I have not played either and I didn't know they made them in those sizes.  Cool.

[pianorama]

I take no offense and find this quite amusing.  Which of the pianos was your favorite (no cheating here, there is no need)?


It is my opinion that Steinway is, as a general matter, materially inferior to any of the following:
You disagree.  Great.  Buy a Steinway and be yourself.  I just don't recommend that route because I think you can do better and still spend less money.

First off, I never listened to them all, but I think that even if I did, IMO, it's unfair to rate pianos by listening to digital recordings of different songs and different pianists. I don't feel justiced to rate them.

And to your 2nd comment: I never said that Steinway pianos are absolutley the best, but I do agree with you that some pianos get more bang for your buck. Though Steinways are very good.

[iumonito]

Iumonito--

I think many Steinway L's can be quite good and in fact are excellent pianos--they're not that much different from O's. I do, however, feel that they are very expensive for their size, and there are better choices at that lofty price range. But they are quality pianos...

In regards to Bosendorfer, why is it a specialty piano as opposed to, say, Bluthner or Bechstein? I do not agree with your assessment of their limited range. Bosies are spectacular for Ravel and Debussy, Beethoven, Haydn, much of Chopin, Brahms, etc...
I do believe they are a little weak for Rachmaninoff, whose pieces require a lot of noise (except for softer pieces like Elegie op.3 #1 for which a Bosie is unequalled), as well as things like ragtime which sounds best with the stringier American pianos.

BTW, O and L are totally different pianos.  O is fine.  L is a portrait holder.

IMO, IMO.

[pianorama]

What does BTW mean?

[BoliverAllmon]

by the way

[Waldszenen]

It is my opinion that Steinway is, as a general matter, materially inferior to any of the following:

Steingraeber
Bluthner
Mason & Hamlin
Fazioli
Bechstein
August Forster
Kawai

I agree that Faziolis and Bechsteins may be superior to Steinways - they're both really well-built instruments.

[pianorama]

Is there any showroom in or near Vancouver (Canada) that has Faziolis, Bluthners, Bechsteins, Steingrabers, or Bosendofers? I keep on hearing a lot about them hear but I've never seen or even heard of them before I came here.

[kamike]

Classical Pianos in Seattle, Washinton.

[smh]

I'm new to the forum and this thread. I am in the process or looking for a grand (no rush) to replace our Schulze-Pollmann upright. I like all of the comments people make because I learn a little bit more with each.

First off, (growing up playing the trumpet) I am an amateur piano player, but my son is the budding pianist. He is not old enough to have a mature opinion about piano tone and touch and I am not much better. His teacher (professor) has a Steinway (B?) and a Baldwin (?) in his office that my son plays every week. He has also played the Steinway 'D' on stage. I can't say that we go "ooooo" and "aaaahhh" every time we hear them.

We started our process of going to dealers to get better at this. Of course, right away they want to start talking money and one wanted to know what he could do to get us to buy that day. (He even went so far as to tell us how good our son was and to say that he really needed a good piano.) Actually, he was very helpful (in spite of the pushing) because he gave us time to try out different pianos that were side-by-side. Of course, we went straight for the Fazioli. I was not impressed as I thought I would be, but, then again, what do I know? Actually, we know what we like if we hear them side-by-side. We played a Schimmel 189 (6'3"?) and then played a Yamaha C3 right next to it. All it took was about three notes to decide that the Schimmel was better(for us). How much of this is brand-related and how much of this is dependent on the particular piano and prep work, I don't know. The Estonia also didn't compare with the Schimmel, but we definitely liked the NWS Special Edition Schimmel better than the regular Schimmel 189. (Worth the extra price, I don't know.) The NWS was also a 7 footer, and that can make a difference too.

We then went to a Steinway dealer and played an 'O' followed by the 'A'. (both made in the US?) It was no contest. The 'A' was far superior to the 'O', but, then again,  they spent two days prepping the 'A'. The salesmen and women in the store also thought that the 'A' (that particular one) was pretty special, which could have been a patronizing comment, but I don't think so. I also don't like the idea that they are, in effect, telling us that you have to be very careful about selecting "the" piano you want. ARRRGGGGHHH! Well, I already knew that. I just have to get good enough to figure that out on my own or pay someone to help me. A salesman told us that about 15 percent of Steinway buyers don't play the piano and don't worry about picking out "the" piano.

Then, there is the problem that the pianos are not in the same room. If they were, then life would be much easier. The on-line sound test comparisons between pianos is a little helpful, but my speakers are poor and I have more difficulty deciding than when I am next to them in person. When I hear them side-by-side, I don't have any problems.

Of course, I don't know if I like the 'A' better than the NWS Schimmel. The Schimmel is a lot less! The difference may be obvious, but I can't tell. We tried out a Shigeru Kawai (SK-2) at another dealer and we thought that was wonderful! I would like to hear a SK-3, but I think I need a lot more ear training to pick between two pianos at two different locations.

Our next stop is at a dealer who carries August Forster pianos. Unfortunately, there are no Bluthner, Bechstein, or Grotrian dealer for hundreds of miles. (How important is it to have an authorized dealer nearby?) Our problem is that we can't decide between pianos at different locations and we worry about selecting a "good" piano from a "bad" piano of a particular make and model. Then again, perhaps we need to pick one we like now and hope it has enough trade-in value (any comments about this?) when we ever do figure it out.

I apologize for the long comment. Any advice would be helpful.

[gruffalo]

i think that you can argue which are the most quality overall, which ones are better for whatever reasons, and then compare with price etc. but i think there is a piano for everyone, and the best way to find your piano is to sit in peace and quiet with different pianos, and really search deep for how you feel. play different types of pieces from different composers aswell. i think some will find that they will click straight away with a certain piano and others just have to keep searching.

as for technical discussion on knowing which pianos to get, i cant help you there.

[iumonito]

I'm new to the forum and this thread. I am in the process or looking for a grand (no rush) to replace our Schulze-Pollmann upright. I like all of the comments people make because I learn a little bit more with each.

First off, (growing up playing the trumpet) I am an amateur piano player, but my son is the budding pianist. He is not old enough to have a mature opinion about piano tone and touch and I am not much better. His teacher (professor) has a Steinway (B?) and a Baldwin (?) in his office that my son plays every week. He has also played the Steinway 'D' on stage. I can't say that we go "ooooo" and "aaaahhh" every time we hear them.

We started our process of going to dealers to get better at this. Of course, right away they want to start talking money and one wanted to know what he could do to get us to buy that day. (He even went so far as to tell us how good our son was and to say that he really needed a good piano.) Actually, he was very helpful (in spite of the pushing) because he gave us time to try out different pianos that were side-by-side. Of course, we went straight for the Fazioli. I was not impressed as I thought I would be, but, then again, what do I know? Actually, we know what we like if we hear them side-by-side. We played a Schimmel 189 (6'3"?) and then played a Yamaha C3 right next to it. All it took was about three notes to decide that the Schimmel was better(for us). How much of this is brand-related and how much of this is dependent on the particular piano and prep work, I don't know. The Estonia also didn't compare with the Schimmel, but we definitely liked the NWS Special Edition Schimmel better than the regular Schimmel 189. (Worth the extra price, I don't know.) The NWS was also a 7 footer, and that can make a difference too.

We then went to a Steinway dealer and played an 'O' followed by the 'A'. (both made in the US?) It was no contest. The 'A' was far superior to the 'O', but, then again,  they spent two days prepping the 'A'. The salesmen and women in the store also thought that the 'A' (that particular one) was pretty special, which could have been a patronizing comment, but I don't think so. I also don't like the idea that they are, in effect, telling us that you have to be very careful about selecting "the" piano you want. ARRRGGGGHHH! Well, I already knew that. I just have to get good enough to figure that out on my own or pay someone to help me. A salesman told us that about 15 percent of Steinway buyers don't play the piano and don't worry about picking out "the" piano.

Then, there is the problem that the pianos are not in the same room. If they were, then life would be much easier. The on-line sound test comparisons between pianos is a little helpful, but my speakers are poor and I have more difficulty deciding than when I am next to them in person. When I hear them side-by-side, I don't have any problems.

Of course, I don't know if I like the 'A' better than the NWS Schimmel. The Schimmel is a lot less! The difference may be obvious, but I can't tell. We tried out a Shigeru Kawai (SK-2) at another dealer and we thought that was wonderful! I would like to hear a SK-3, but I think I need a lot more ear training to pick between two pianos at two different locations.

Our next stop is at a dealer who carries August Forster pianos. Unfortunately, there are no Bluthner, Bechstein, or Grotrian dealer for hundreds of miles. (How important is it to have an authorized dealer nearby?) Our problem is that we can't decide between pianos at different locations and we worry about selecting a "good" piano from a "bad" piano of a particular make and model. Then again, perhaps we need to pick one we like now and hope it has enough trade-in value (any comments about this?) when we ever do figure it out.

I apologize for the long comment. Any advice would be helpful.

You are doing precisely what you should, trying out lots of pianos and not paying much attention to brand.  I would say having an authorized dealer nearby is not important, but having a trusted technician is crucial.  Someone obsessed with having the piano sound the best it can and at the same time patient and mindful that you don't want to spend all your money on piano maintenance is best.  A good technician is an educator too.

The only thing I would add is that knowing about piano design features may help you predict how the piano will age and how the sound can be modified.  Many say get the one that sounds and feels best, but these things can be tweaked and you may pass on the perfect piano just because it wasn't prepped right when you played it.  That would be sad, as you sound very thorough and intelligent.

Best of lucks.

[pantonality]

i don't want just good anymore.  i want excellent.  kawaii is good.  steinway is excellent.  one excellent piano is better than two good ones - unless you know where to get some excellent stuff for good prices.

Hi Pianistimo,

My limited experience with Steinways is that they have a great name that will impress the family and neighbors. They make wonderful furniture, but their musical instruments vary widely for many reasons. I've heard many stories of visiting Steinway Hall in NYC and playing many instruments none of which sound remotely alike. Steinway will tell you that this variability is a good thing, you get to pick the piano that suits you best. Well that's nice marketing, but with such wide variability it's very hard to know exactly what the "Steinway Sound" is. This much I know, Steinways are shipped from the factory in a very unprepped state. Our local tech was telling me how much work he has to do to get them in reasonably playable condition. This is one reason why Steinway dealers don't discount much. The problem with that is there's a wide variety in the quality of techs at dealers nationwide. Our local tech was telling me about the vast quantity of lacquer he put on the hammers of one particular instrument.

Another poster mentioned Schimmel. I enjoyed playing Schimmels at one dealer I visited. I was invited to play one particular instrument, but the keys wouldn't go down. When I mentioned this to the salesman he opened it up and unlocked the keyboard. It turns out it had just been uncrated and was totally unprepped. Well guess what it was in remarkable tune and played beautifully. I was very impressed, though unlike the other poster I was more impressed with the Estonia.

My point is there are many fine piano brands and many that build to a higher standard than Steinway in NYC (Hamburg has a better reputation, but I've never played a Hamburg Steinway). Petroff does indeed make a nice piano, but there are many nice pianos. I bought what I felt was an awesome piano. One thing is for sure, if you buy a Steinway your friends and family will recognize the brand. You can't say the same about August Forster, Charles Walter, Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Stuart, Steingraeber, or Estonia (my baby). They might know Mason and Hamlin (much better and less expensive than Steinway).

[iumonito]

I am in agreement with the essence of the last post.

I would add after mentioning that your neighbors and family will know, do you really care about that?  If you do, you can disregard the rest here.

I would say get the best piano within the budget you have marked for yourself.  If that budget is in the mid $40s (which is what generally will buy you a used S&S B) you can get a brand new Mason BB, a Grotrian 225, close to 2 Kawais RX-6, a Schimmel 213 with all the Barenreiter scores you would like, or an Irmler 222 and a house in Bonaire (I exagerate with the last one, of course).  Every single one of these pianos is, IMHO, much much much better than the S&S B.  Not just better value, better pianos.

If you go smaller, Estonia 190 looms mightly in the picture.  It is a better piano than the L and it is so much less expensive (the fair size comparison is with the model A, which is so much better than the L, but still IMO not even near the Estonia, and then you get your Bonaire home again).

I very much don't think S&S is excellent.  Kawais I find excellent.  Estonias I find excellent.  Schimmel I find excellent.  (M&H, Steingraeber, Bluthner, Fazioli, those are divine).

S&S I find well marketed.

[pianistimo]

i wouldn't care about my family liking the piano since they don't play.  at least not yet.  what is important to me is that a piano sounds good (and more recently learned that it should have the same quality of sound going from the steel strings to the strings that are wound with copper in the bass).  for some reason, i think it is consistency, i don't like the mason and hamelin.  the touch didn't seem regulated (after several years of playing) on the mason and hamelin as a steinway.  you can buy a steinway (carefully chosen) and it will still be playing evenly after many years.  i think you get what you pay for.   maybe i'm making this up - but i don't think so.  the mason and hamelin's that have been around after 5-7 years are even worse.  piano tuners can only do so much with an instrument (even if it is maintained).

agreed about so many pianos that people don't know about.  i'd like to try one of those faziolis.  i don't think i've ever experienced playing on a new one of those.  unfortunately, if i played on a piano that i REALLY liked - i wouldn't want to leave the store.  i'd keep coming over and 'petting it.'  soon, i would come to love it (like a pet) and then it would be bought by someone else.  the pain would be too much.  so - i have to pretend that my piano doesn't exist - even though i know it does and i know it's going to be expensive.  maybe i will keep dreaming about my perfect piano.  (it wouldn't fit in my livingroom anyway right now - without extracting the couch)  then, my kids would be angry at me because there would be nowhere to sit.  maybe in 10 years i'll have enough money and also, the basement refinished so that the couch can go downstairs.  then, i'll have an upright, an organ, and a beautiful pettable black satin something (steinway) with built in lights and a bench that doesn't squeak and is extremely cushy.

plug for kawaii- i bought mine about 18 years ago and it STILL stays evenly in tune, plays evenly (needs a bit of regulating - which i haven't done yet - but don't have to do very frequently) and still has a VERY nice sound and has been a GREAT practice piano.  it is a studio upright.  i really like the fact the pins have stayed tight.  otherwise, you have a piano that goes out of tune quickly.  it's been moved three times, too.

[saturation]

Yes, but methinks there is an "if" that isn't covered by the poll question.

The sound that is distinctly Steinway comes mostly from the B and longer models.  From comparisons, it 'hears' like the minimum length is ~ 6'.

Recently the O series was reintroduced.  The 5'10"+ O and L sounds nice but its distinctly not the sonority of the Model B.  The As however, are so much closer to the sonority of the B, and they are 6'2" for the still produced A2.  Model A3 was 6'4" which ceased production ?? 1940s; these are square tailed As.  It was preceded by rounded tail A1, at 6'1".  There is also another rounded tail model A, which is less than 88 keys, and is almost never rebuilt.

If you've ever heard any of the As, they sound so much like what the Bs are, you can only tell the difference in the very last notes, which is a touch nasal in the As, versus the growl of the B.

Once in this range, the various models do not all sound the same and are very distinct yet similar [like family relatives], and have to be voiced to bring out the nuances you want in it.

So, in a nutshell, for anything less than a 6', I would seriously look at other pianos.

But if your budget is 6' and up, then Steinway is a top player among many possibilities and is well worth its cost.  I decided that many years ago, so saved and moved finances around so that 10 years later, I had the funds for the B .. but got an A instead!

This is a once in a lifetime purchase, so its not taken lightly and its not likely to be resold in my lifetime.

[smh]

I have been out of town, but I wanted to thank everyone for the feedback.

iumonito wrote:

"The only thing I would add is that knowing about piano design features may help you predict how the piano will age and how the sound can be modified.  Many say get the one that sounds and feels best, but these things can be tweaked and you may pass on the perfect piano just because it wasn't prepped right when you played it.  That would be sad, as you sound very thorough and intelligent."


This is kind of a catch 22. At a certain price level, we are supposed to decide based on what we hear and like. If we have to worry about whether a piano is prepped right, then we cannot judge and must base our decision partially on "piano design features" or reputation. But, I have to assume that the pianos are prepped properly in the showroom and that their sound can't be modified so much as to sound like another piano. However, I do worry about whether I would come to a different conclusion given two other pianos. My guess is that the comment related to my preference of the Schimmel over the Estonia. Actually, I wanted to like the Estonia, but on a second trip to the store, I came to the same conclusion. They were the same two pianos, however. If there are technical issues about how either of these two pianos will age, I am very interested in hearing about them. Actually, we really liked the NWS special edition Schimmel, but now we are getting into the area where I would need to look at the Grotrian. Slowly we creep, higher and higher. Then, we go back and look at the RX-3 (pretty darn nice) at much less money. But then, it's sitting next to a Shigeru Kawai and the creeping begins again. Actually, the big problem we have is comparing pianos at different locations. We played an August Forster (190?) and were offered a very, very nice price, but ... well, I don't know. At some point we will feel confident (perhaps still somewhat ignorant), but confident about our decision. I am trying to learn enough to feel good about the choice (a year later) without making a career of the process.

This thread is about Steinway, so my comment is that I really liked the 'A' I played, but it was quickly dismissed because the word is (?) we cannot expect much of a discount and the list price is too high. If this is wrong, then Steinway is scaring away many potential customers. Also, I wasn't thrilled about how they were spending a lot of time preparing for an "Art Case" show for special clients that included other works of art and antiques (and wine and cheese). I don't think there will be much playing at the show.

[henrah]

All I can really say is...

Fazioli Fazioli Fazioli Fazioli Fazioli Fazioli Fazioli.


I'm very subjective when it comes to pianos that aren't Fazioli's
Henrah

P.S. Pointless post, but meh....

[saturation]

This is kind of a catch 22. At a certain price level, we are supposed to decide based on what we hear and like. If we have to worry about whether a piano is prepped right, then we cannot judge and must base our decision partially on "piano design features" or reputation. ....
This thread is about Steinway, so my comment is that I really liked the 'A' I played, but it was quickly dismissed because the word is (?) we cannot expect much of a discount and the list price is too high. If this is wrong, then Steinway is scaring away many potential customers. Also, I wasn't thrilled about how they were spending a lot of time preparing for an "Art Case" show for special clients that included other works of art and antiques (and wine and cheese). I don't think there will be much playing at the show.

In all my dealings with piano dealers who knew them more as musical instruments over furniture, the dealer worth his salt is one who always had a piano for sale in shape for playing.   How else can a piano put its best foot forward as a musical instrument?  It also reflects what kind of services one may get from them, should it be required.

A customer willing to put extra dollars on 'art cases' rather focus such funds on a piano of more sonorous qualities, is an event I would avoid.  Since one is shopping for a musical instrument, and an art case-wine-cheese session isn't the focus of such a sale, it shouldn't detract from Steinway as a company as they are in the business of selling pianos come what may.

My prior experience was new Steinway pianos are never discounted, regardless of dealer. 

When I bought a Steinway over a decade ago, I pitched dealers across the Northeast USA against each other, and the prices were firm, except on rebuilds.  I saw at least 100+ Steinways from A-D sizes and focused the dealers on the same size pianos against each other in pricing.  They were flexible on other items: free tuning, moving, piano bench, etc.

[serge1paris]

Iumonito Steinway bashing is just a caricature and would be laughable if it were not taking seriously by some posters.

I quite agree there are many good pianos :  Bechtein B210  Bluthner Model 2 Gotrian 225, Fazioli  228, Bosie 225 and Yamaha S6 are all fabulous. 

But make no mistake Steinway B is among them at the top of the list !!!

[andyd]

What about the Steinway model C?  227cm.  It seems forgotten most of the time.

Andy