What to do with an unmotivated 14 year old girl?

[pizno]

I have this student, a lovely young woman who is very polite and nice, and kind of on the quiet side.  She has been studying for 8 years and is just at intermediate level.  She could be good, but just is not motivated.  Her mother is a good pianist, so maybe she's getting into that 'don't want to be like mom' thing.  I have tried all the repertoire I can think of.  She likes some jazz, some Spanish music, but we've done a lot of that.  Perhaps we need a new jazz piece, but I'm not that familiar with the jazz repertoire that's out there.  I feel bad for her mom, who would like her to love the piano, but it is clear that she doesn't.  I don't know what else I can do for her.  Any ideas of exciting music? 

[BoliverAllmon]

ask her what she wants to do.

[oksanapianist]

I am losing patience with unmotivated kids and if I can afford to lose them- I simply write their parents that it's not working out. If you do this- this enables an opening for someone who really wants to be there.

[pianistimo]

my daughter is 11 and already there.  i sympathize for parents who play the piano and also want their kids to play.  my daughter loves art and is constantly drawing - and is becoming quite good at it.  despite all this, something in me wants her to be at least decent at piano.  she thinks otherwise.

my mom 'made' me take piano between 8-14 and then around 15-16 i really started liking it.  i don't know if this is something i lack as a parent (backbone) to just tell her to practice anyway - because we have the instrument here at her disposal - and let her hate me for awhile - or just let her take art classes and forget music.

also, she has a wonderful voice.  maybe i should just let her take voice lessons and be different from me in music choice.

[pizno]

Yes, I know.  How much do we push our kids? This girls mom wants so much for her to love the piano, and it is just not really there for her.  I feel for her.  And for you!  How do we get that spark going?  I have tried everything - with the mom (who I really like) there all the time - and it is just frustrating.  As a parent, you always think - some day they'll thank me!

[nicko124]

Yes, I know.  How much do we push our kids? This girls mom wants so much for her to love the piano, and it is just not really there for her.  I feel for her.  And for you!  How do we get that spark going?  I have tried everything - with the mom (who I really like) there all the time - and it is just frustrating.  As a parent, you always think - some day they'll thank me!

I am not sure if this will help but for jazz pieces you could have a look at some Gershwin, the preludes are quite fun. Or one of his broadway 'standard' songs maybe.

Do you often play things for her to try to inspire her to practice? -

Have you tried Debussy-Arabasque 1, that could inspire her.


On the other hand she might just not be passionate about the piano, you could try explaining to practice for herself not just because here mom wants her to.

[galonia]

Teenagers are tricky animals - I don't know how my teachers managed with me when I was there.

If a teenager really actually hates piano, she will dig her heels in and you will know - I've had this experience before, and no amount of effort on your part will move them.  It's impossible to work with such a student, because I feel it is unreasonably demanding on a piano teacher to work with a teenage student who brings a terrible attitude to every lesson.  But from what you've posted, it doesn't sound that way yet.

If a teenager is simply not very interested - I would advise talking to the parent.  Some parents are quite accepting of this, and just say, "Never mind, she's done enough, I won't push her."  You can soothe the parent by pointing out that the student can always come back to it later in life when they are interested in piano again.

Some parents though, are very insistent that their offspring continue.  I had one student like that once - her mother insisted the girl complete up to Grade 8 of the exams.  So I just said to the student, "I'll make you a deal, I'll do my best to pick pieces that both meet the exam requirements and are not too taxing on you.  I will give you any advice I can to help you get through these exams as quickly and as painlessly for both of us as possible.  But you need to do the work I ask you to do."  This worked - we got good results, not spectacular, but quite good, and when I delivered the Grade 8 certificate to her, I commented, "Here is your Get Out of Jail Free card," and she laughed.

Now, because I have managed to maintain a good relationship with this student, and she herself knows her mother would like her to continue playing piano, she asks me for advice about pieces to play - where she can get hold of music for some fun pop songs or whatever.  It makes me happy that she has managed to keep an interest in music.

I think that's the most important goal - whatever happens, a long-term love of music should be the foremost goal, and you need to make the parents realise this.  And to achieve it, you should make the student feel like they are getting a say, and that their needs are met, too.

[cora]

May I present you with an alternate view here? I don't think you should think in terms of which pieces she likes. You should ask yourself what she needs to learn, and then set the program. For example, if you choose Chopin's Prelude in E minor, you can teach her to make the rhythm of the chords go over the barline in a dynamic way. Since she's nice and polite, she will probably not refuse this desire of yours. But let's just say she did. Then you could teach the same concept using Ernest Block's Enfantines, Melody. I only teach a piece if something new will be learned from it. Unless you can pinpoint why you are teaching her a piece, she will never feel like you' re guiding the ship, and will look for ways to rebel subconsciously or consciously.

If even your concerted effort to run a tight ship fails, let her go. It wasn't meant to be.
All the best.

[whynot]

When you say she's interested in jazz, do you mean jazz-idiom pieces or real jazz?  Sometimes teenagers will really buck up with a big change, like starting to play by ear, learning alternative scales and expanded chords, and improvising.  You might give her a good jazz recording, show her the basic chords so she can comp along, and then see what else she figures out about it.   

I have a great appreciation for both sides of this problem.  I'm a teacher, and I definitely run into this problem.  And it's also hard to be in the student's shoes-- especially the nice ones!  Because, unfortunately, they are the ones who get pushed around more (not by you! I just mean in general).  The drawback of being a polite, respectful kid is always being told what to do, because adults know you'll just do it.  Whereas a rebel would have been dropped by the teacher, and the parents would have stopped pushing.  I find that interesting.  I think your student is very fortunate to have you for a teacher.  You are geniunely interested in how she feels and what her experience is.  Perhaps, rather than looking for pieces, look for a whole genre or project that she might care about but has been too shy/cooperative to tell anyone.  Maybe she'd like to play in a jazz band at school, or play for her church, or maybe she loves to sing by herself and would like to play along.  If there is something, I'll bet you will be able to find out.

Good luck! 

 

[pizno]

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.  In response to the jazz question - I think she is more interested in the jazz idiom stuff, not real jazz.  I like the Gershwin idea - not sure if anything is her level.  And I also agree that the nicer kids get pushed around more.  The kids whose parent's let them quit tend to be the more defiant ones.  I am also a parent, and I know that we just hold out hope that some day our kids will take to the piano, even when they seem like they have no interest.  How many people wish they never had piano lessons?  How many people say 'I really wish I couldn't play the piano'.  That's what keeps me going, as a parent and as a teacher. 

[leahcim]

How many people wish they never had piano lessons?
How many people say 'I really wish I couldn't play the piano'.

I wouldn't use being good at something as an excuse to push someone into it. See the unabomber for an example.

How many people say "I really wish I couldn't fly a plane, program a computer or speak 200 languages"?, so why doesn't anyone here go and learn them or push their kids into doing them? Because this is a piano forum and so we're all agreed that playing the piano is good?

If you have pushy parents, I'd offer to teach them and see if they stick at something they really wish their kids could do.

I liked galonia's post the best because it showed empathy for his student "I know what I was like when I was a teenager" and, despite saying "talk to the parent" he actually talked to the student instead, and imo, that's why it worked, because he had empathy and gave her some external motivation, rather than hoping that she would had some intrinisic desire to play.

Plus, bear in mind that lots of us " really wish" we could do something. Especially in terms that imply that we wish we'd started it xx years or so in the past.

The fact we don't do it is largely because wishing doesn't work. If we've tried to do it and gave up, lost interest etc, that's probably because of the difference between the dream of wishing you could and the reality of what doing it entails. If the dream is the parents you're teaching the wrong person.

Regrets? 30 years ago I couldn't do things I can do now. Should I regret not trying harder back then? Nah, because if you do something when you are 30, 40 or 50 it doesn't follow that you had what was necessary when you were 10 and it's not as though the years I didn't spend learning to play snooker, the piano or speaking Japanese weren't spent learning something else.

So sure, I could "really wish" my parents had bought a piano and I might "really wish" that I'd learnt to play when I was 5, but the likelyhood is that I would be like the vast majority of kids who have no great interest. Had I been pushed I might not have learnt the thing I've spent 20+ years doing. A thing that my parents and teachers didn't even know existed, let alone had an informed opinion about its merits.

OTOH someone might say "..but I was pushed and at the time I hated it, but now I'm really glad.." but we're a forgiving bunch and our parents are humans after all, so we might forgive and forget so long as they don't push too hard. Chances are they would have taken it up again themselves eventually. e.g A lot of parents say they buy a piano, it gathers dust and then one day a sudden interest appears.

The fact this girl has access to a piano _and_ a parent who appears to play and no doubt enjoys music is all the pushing she should need. OTOH, perhaps she has too easy access and clue about what piano is all about and takes it for granted. Maybe she will take an interest in, or even become obsessive about something that's not so readily obtainable.

Bernhard talks in one of his posts about very young children being left and letting them reach a point where what they know is no longer enough so they seek out more teaching.

Perhaps that is true for older students too? Maybe for a time the formality of lessons is what some don't like and pushing just associates piano and music with something they don't like. Maybe it's not just very young children who need to be left alone to get bored with what they can already do before teaching them more? There are a plethora of people who play piano, to a certain standard, and have no great interest or desire to go beyond pieces they can already pick up and play. Who are we to decide that they could be better if they tried? Certainly not if they are adults, but why because they are children or young adults? Are they all eating cabbage and sprouts these days to give us so little else to worry about?

[eastcountypiano]

I think back to when I was that age and playing and ocassionally I would ask my teacher for a song that I heard on the radio and she would find it for me.  I would practice and practice and it would renew my interest in the piano.

There has got to be a song that this girl would like to play.

If not, then there has got to be more to it.  Maybe it just plain old teenage rebellion.  Maybe her confidence is low, thinking she may never play as good as her mother, with a teenager it can be difficult to figure out and you may never figure it out but hopefully, with a little gentle prodding and a whole lot of listening between the lines you might zero in on what's going on.

I'd start with asking her what her favorite song is and if it turns out to be something she has already played then let her play it again and show her how to make it sound better than it has ever sounded before with technique or get the sheet music a level harder.  Ask her questions after she plays the song, like what part does she like the most in the song, etc.

Also, this may be a good time to have her write her own piece.  Inspire her by having her name the piece before she writes it. 

[tompilk]

lend her some of your cds... rachmaninov concertos... i read somewhere that some high-up pianist thought of rachmaninov as teh first composer to just make a gradual step towards teh creation of jazz... some of his stuff is quite jazzy, but strictly so...
Tom

[_tyro]

Long, long ago, my very wise teacher told my mother that many (most?) children lose interest in practicing at about eleven or twelve. (She gave this warning before it actually happened.)  Her solution was to continue lessons -- she suggested that I not be forced to practice more than about half an hour a day -- and she continued with interesting, but not very demanding pieces, and never required that every note be perfect.  We also started doing some theory.  Eventually I got over my slump, can still play reasonably well many, *many* years later (as a hobby, not even remotely professionally), and am grateful  for what has turned out be be a first rate introduction to the literature.  Neither she nor my parents (nor I) had any illusion that they were dealing with a prodigy, and maybe that's why we could work out a consensus. I have no idea where she found the patience to do things this way.

[mike_lang]

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[leahcim]

If the kid doesn't work, you drop her.....Sorry if anyone has said this already; I didn't bother to read the posts above this.

Ah, then you perhaps missed that they were talking about abseiling? Interesting advice none the less....

[juliax]

I have had many students to which I was there primary motivation.  Whether it be lack of interest of the parents, having too many extra curriculers, etc.  I consider it my job as a piano teacher to not only teach piano, but to sell the piano lessons.  There is absolutely no reason or excuse to ever give up on a child (including a teenager), as previously suggested.  That would be similar to a car salesman refusing to sell someone a car just because they "weren't sure" about it.   In my 7 years teaching I have never refused to teach a child for lack of interest.  In fact, at the music school I worked at I quickly worked up to 50 students a week because I would NEVER give up on my students.  I always taught them something, even the ones that didn't care, and I used every tactic possible to keep them interested. 
Here are some of these ways:  improvisation, composition, ear training, accomponiment (this can be done by you or a CD), prizes for learning, contests, various other percussion instrumentation, duets with other students, and of course being overly enthusiastic.  I rarely stay seated through an entire lesson.  I am very animated and I get excited (overly excited) about almost everything.  Children and teenagers both feed off of their teachers reactions.  I know how much a students bad attitude can wear on a teacher, but it's still your responsibility as a teacher to try everything possible, and not give up. 
I had a 14 year old student who only practiced songs she enjoyed, so I taught her composition and ad lib.  She wrote some of the most amazing and beautiful music I have ever heard.  I was moved to tears in some of our lessons.  I also taught her many different ways to play Canon in D, and showed her how to improvise new ways of playing it.
I am also taking 10 of my students on a field trip to the children's symphony.  Activities like this are a great way to break the monotony of weekly lessons.
Keep in mind, as a teacher, children look to you for approval, and turning them away can cause more harm than you realize.  When I was 15 I had a teacher tell me that he no longer had time to teach, but it has always stuck in the back of mind that maybe if I had been a better student, he would not have "rejected" me.   
Good luck and keep up the great work! 

[clef]

she needs to experiance the thrill of playing something that she really likes.  Maybe you should try some different things for a bit and see where her strengths lie, try improvisation, chordal sightreading and accompaiments, maybe you could teach her jazz piano, not just solo pieces in jazz style, but real jazz piano, like in a big band, just try a few things, find something that works for her, and then use that information when dealing with her in the future