Start learning using the pedal.

[drexo]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum. I hope I can learn a lot here, cause I don't play for that long yet, so I still have to learn a lot.



Well, my question is:


My parents gave me a digital piano yesterday (yamaha clp 220 I think), wich is great of course, but since I'm used to play on a keyboard (without weighted keys, 61 notes and without pedals), it's kinda hard for me to play on a piano-like instrument. The problem isn't really the fingering, I like the weighted keys and I can put some feeling in my playing already. Also, having 88 notes instead of 61 is no problem at all. The real problem for me is using the pedal. I have a hard time using the sustain pedal; of course, it's easy to push and hold it, but that's not the right way to do it of course. I have a problem with releasing the pedal, in other words: when I used the sustain pedal for a bit and I'm changing to another part of the piece, the notes I played are still noticable, so I have to release the pedal a bit, but I have a hard time with that. Mostly the sounds stops completely cause I released the pedal too much.

My question really is: how to use the sustain pedal in a right way? I want to get the sound fluently and I don't want to get the sound completely stopped in a piece, of course.


I hope someone can help me with this. I know I just started using the pedal, but I better learn in the right way from the start instead of learning it in a different way.


Thanks!!

[Ruro]

Mostly the sounds stops completely cause I released the pedal too much

Hi there, I got myself a CLP 450 or something for Christmas (well, November Time), and moving up from the Yamaha Keyboard (same state as you was used too), the pedal is a nightmare.

Tbh, I would like to hear an answer on this. I mean, I thought if you release say 20%, a gradual fade out would occur, and 80% results in a fast fade out. But to my suprise, aroud the 50% mark, it just drops the sound out in a split second flat! (Not literally, but fast).

Basically when I'm playing, I have to snap my foot up and down quickly to accomplish a blend, and not too much build up either. I should really put more thought into how the darn thing can work as well, I only realised recently that if I release it after playing a certain note, I don't have gaps between Pedal releases and played notes ^_^;; I'm so stupid.
Infact that should give you an idea about the speed both our pianos are probably snapping the sustained notes out :/

I have a very eery feeling though... a real piano does NOT work like this, I'm not sure precisely what the half pedalling feature is, but I bet our pianos DON'T have it ¬_¬ Sorry if that seemed like a rant, just being thorough ^_^ Would you concur btw, Drexo?

[drexo]

Thanks for your answer Ruro.


I completely agree with you, working with the pedal on a Digital like this is a nightmare, if you played on a Yamaha keyboard before. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but indeed; the sustained notes snap away really quick... Way too fats if you ask me. If I just push down the pedal gently and I hold it really between sustained notes, or not sustained notes, it sustains already quite a lot. I don't know if these piano's have 1/2 pedalling but I don't think so.

I really like the bright grand piano sound on my piano, but it's so hard to play with feeling, cause I just don't master the pedal. The soft pedal works nice imo, I use that one a lot too, it's just that sustain pedal wich is so hard for me to use.

I hope someone can give some more avice about this and I also would like to know some pedal methods.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[zheer]

Man thats like asking, haw do you put a spoon in your mouth.

[Ruro]

Safe to say, Mastering the Digital Piano's Pedal is pointless in terms of using the skill on a Grand Piano, I doubt it will be a bad habit actually, just you'll end up learning two different methods.

I remember reading on here a while ago, someone using an Upright (with pedalling pretty much under the belt), and played a Grand Piano to only find the sound built up more in comparison and became alot more "muddier" as a result. Or atleast something like that was said, so you might as well assume every piano has it's own unique pedalling details

You yourself may have to work out the individuality of your piano ^_^;; It's fun anyway!

[drexo]

Man thats like asking, haw do you put a spoon in your mouth.

Hey, I'm not used to use a pedal. If you never used it before and you don't have someone who can teach you it (I don't take lessons atm), it's not as simple as you think.





Ruro: thanks for your reply. I understand that every piano has it's own pedalling, but I just expected pedalling a lot different than it is on my own digital piano. Maybe it's only on some piano's, like I have, that the sustain pedal works like it does now. I expected that it worked more like: "the more you push on it, the more it sustains", if you know what I mean. On my CLP 220 it's more like: "I push the sustain pedal, no matter how far, and it sustains".

But o well, I guess I just have to learn working with it. It's still way better than the keyboard I used before I got this digital.

Still, if someone knows a book on the internet, or a site, with pedalling methods/information on it, I'd like to know it. 

[stephane]

Drexo,

I'm not a piano expert. I've been playing for 2,5 years now and have both a digital and buffet (accoustic) piano.

On an accoustic piano every note has some strings/chords that are held still with a damper when not playing. That is for all notes except the highest ones (at the right of your piano). Which notes have a damper and which ones haven't depends on the piano.

When you hit a key, first the damper will release and then a hammer hits the strings. As long as you hold the key pressed, de damper doesn't make contact and the note keeps sounding. Once you release the key, the damper gets back in place and mutes the strings.

What the sustain pedal does is lifting all the dampers. This means that the notes keep sounding even after you release the key. When you lift your feet bit by bit, at one moment the sound will be muted. That is the moment the dampers (lifted by the sustain pedal) get in contact with the strings. So what you discribe sounds pretty normal to me. The sustain pedal is not like a volume pedal or does not regulate the time a note is sustained. It is mainly an on-off switch to yes or no sustain the note.

Two remarks:
On a accoustic piano you get resonance from not played strings if there is no damper.
This means you play one note and there are other notes you start to hear. This is something you won't get on a digital one.

On a real piano when you push down the sustain pedal your note keeps going (as well as some resonance as explained above). When you then briefly lift the pedal (to mute the strings) and the again depress the pedal, often when you lift only briefly the notes will not be muted completely (might be wanted, I guess mostly not). This is something that is not present on all digital piano's. Some seem to simulate this effect.

Hope this makes sence and helps.

Best regards,

Stephane

[leahcim]

Hey, I'm not used to use a pedal. If you never used it before and you don't have someone who can teach you it (I don't take lessons atm), it's not as simple as you think.

Indeed, and there are whole books dedicated to it if you do a search in here you'll find a thread or three that talks about specific books.

I think with respect to your inital question though, it's case of co-ordinating your use of the pedal in much the same way that you have to co-ordinate your left+right hands. Personally I learn the notes first and add the pedal afterwards.

Clearly [as I describe in more detail below] when you lift the pedal the sound stops, unless you're holding some notes with your fingers. If you want to connect, say, 2 chords, you want to lift after / at the same time as you've played the next chord, if you want no gap at all. How much overlap you get is where your teacher will start waving their hands and talking about interpretation and music and so on and where the books and the years of lessons and practise come into it.

I expected that it worked more like: "the more you push on it, the more it sustains", if you know what I mean. On my CLP 220 it's more like: "I push the sustain pedal, no matter how far, and it sustains".

Well, in a sense it does but not in the way you've described.

As someone has discussed when you press the damper pedal on an acoustic felt dampers are raised off the strings.

However they don't act strictly as an on-off switch.

Basically you'll have

(a) Dampers are fully on the strings - no sound from those strings
(b) Dampers are slightly off the string - you get sustain, but because the damper is still touching the string the sound is affected. This is called '1/2 pedalling' and the length of travel between fully on and fully off is what makes the pedal more than a simple switch.
(c) Dampers are fully off the strings - the string is free to vibrate so you get full sustain. At this point no amount of pressing the pedal further, if there is travel remaining, will make any difference.

With an acoustic being mechanical, the relationship between a, b and c will no doubt vary between pianos and I assume there's probably regulation for it too?

As already said, notes that aren't damped also contribute to the sound through sympathetic resonance, whether you are playing them or not. In a digital they use different samples recorded with the sustain pedal depressed to recreate it.

However in a real piano there is a much more complicated relationship between the open strings and soundboard that only a few digital pianos attempt to recreate.

On a digital piano, depending on the model you'll generally find

(a) The sustain pedal is a simple switch, so it's either full sustain or none.

(b) In some models the sustain pedal is a potentiometer of some description, so there are several "levels" of sustain depending how far the pedal is depressed to imitate the 1/2-pedalling effect.

(c) The more complex sympathetic resonance [and the 1/2-pedalling] either doesn't exist, uses fake reverby/electronic manipulation or rarely maths to create it. i.e whether the sound of the digital actually sounds anything like 1/2-pedalling and / or sym res does on a real acoustic is, along with the general piano sound they make, the kind of thing you'd worry about before buying one.

If you have a clp-220, I don't think it has 1/2-pedalling. The higher models in the range do though, so I could be wrong, check the manual.

[drexo]

leahcim, thanks a lot for all your information and your time to write your reply.


I don't know what else to say, it's all clear to me now.