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Topic: Overrated techniques among famous pianists  (Read 7673 times)

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #50 on: January 20, 2006, 01:34:23 PM
Quote
Richter's live Hammerklavier Sonata on BBC is riddled with wrong notes, especially the fugue. It's intense but barely listenable on repeated hearings.

True.

Richter was another pianist that just Cziffra  like suffered from a damaged hand during his prime.

He recovered pretty quickly though.

Another player I find overrated is Schnabel. His studioversion of Hammerklavier is full of wrong notes and mistakes.

By the way, anyone have the link to that russian site at .ru with all the great pianomp3:s ?

Offline brewtality2

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #51 on: January 20, 2006, 03:24:27 PM
Schnabel was ridiculed by his colleagues for his poor technique so I find it hard to believe that he was overrated. In reply to Schnabel getting rejected from the army, Rosenthal quipped "what do you expect, no fingers!" (or words to that effect). Btw the hammerklavier is very fast and that is why there were wrong notes.

Offline mpd210

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #52 on: January 20, 2006, 06:46:17 PM
Someone mentioned about Rach's playing of the chopin piano sonata no2. Actually, I like Ivo Pogorelich's recording of it  better. But I agree Rach was a wizard on the piano. And not only on the piano, but as a composer and conductor. All around, IMHO, Rach is one of the greatest musician to have ever lived.
Life is like this quote from a famous tennis player: "Life is like"...doh I forget, I know it had something to do with triangular tennis balls.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #53 on: January 21, 2006, 01:19:38 AM
classic.manual.ru

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #54 on: January 21, 2006, 08:28:57 AM
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Schnabel was ridiculed by his colleagues for his poor technique so I find it hard to believe that he was overrated

Really!

I thought he was considered the best performer of the Beethoven Sonatas ever recorded.

Schnabel could decide the tempo of Hammerklavier himself, it wasnīt a concert after all.

I donīt know how may retakes people could do in the studio those days or if he could have steprecorded it in some way but I expected  a better performance then that from someone who is considered the best Beethoven performer of all time.

Without the technique you canīt make Hammerklavier sound good.





Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #55 on: January 21, 2006, 01:36:37 PM
Really!

I thought he was considered the best performer of the Beethoven Sonatas ever recorded.

um, technique isn't the sole basis on which he was judged, just fyi.

Quote
Schnabel could decide the tempo of Hammerklavier himself, it wasnīt a concert after all.

If you look at the tempo indications, Beethoven asked for a speed which no pianist can achieve, Schnabel was attempting to follow the MM. Richter commented on it thusly "No, you should never trust metronome markings. As proof, here is Schnabel's recording of the Hammerklavier: it's totally unacceptable, absolutely impossible to listen to".

Offline stevie

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #56 on: January 22, 2006, 12:44:34 AM
If you look at the tempo indications, Beethoven asked for a speed which no pianist can achieve,

is u sho?  8)

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #57 on: January 26, 2006, 01:52:31 AM
I have listened to every Rach clip on the  Russian site and I must say that I find the best players right now better technically and at least as good musically.

The main reason that Rach has got a godlike status today is propably his own works.

By the way, a pianist that I think should compose more is Da Doctor (I think itīs his nickname  ;D)

I am certain that Da doctor is a greater composer then Alkan for instance.

Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #58 on: January 26, 2006, 01:58:24 AM
I have listened to every Rach clip on the  Russian site and I must say that I find the best players right now better technically and at least as good musically.

The main reason that Rach has got a godlike status today is propably his own works.

By the way, a pianist that I think should compose more is Da Doctor (I think itīs his nickname  ;D)

I am certain that Da doctor is a greater composer then Alkan for instance.

Lol, this post is ludicrous. Is today "opposite" day? *remembers back to yr 2*

Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #59 on: February 06, 2006, 09:42:37 PM
Rachmaninov's playing reflects emotional intensity, his thrilling gifts as a melodist and his ability to crystallize perfectly a particular mood or sentiment. In his sonorous texture and rich embellishment, he reflects as well his sovereign command on keyboard technique and his spectacular gifts as a pianist.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #60 on: February 07, 2006, 12:59:52 PM
Rachmaninov's playing reflects emotional intensity, his thrilling gifts as a melodist and his ability to crystallize perfectly a particular mood or sentiment. In his sonorous texture and rich embellishment, he reflects as well his sovereign command on keyboard technique and his spectacular gifts as a pianist.

Is this taken from a Rachmaninov promotion book?



Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #61 on: February 07, 2006, 09:02:16 PM
NO!!

Serge Rachmaninov, the last of the great Russian romanticists, the pupil of Arensky and Taneiev in composition and of liszt's pupil Siloti in piano play, had won his world-wide recognition as a piano VIRTUOSO.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

Offline ralessi

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #62 on: February 09, 2006, 03:58:19 AM
Long time no see all....been doing the college thing and it seems to take up much time.  So i read on here something about Cziffra not being able to even compare to Ashkenazy as a pianist/technician? that is simply crazytalk!  It seems to me that many of you are WAY underestimating Gyorgy Cziffra's abilities.  Whoever made the comment about wanting to hear him play the rach 3 (i dont feel like going back and looking), have you heard his recording of the Rach 2? its amazing! Im going to dive in and say that his recording is my favorite.  Ashkenazy and kissin's are both...too Russian, I dont mind Zimermann's, Richter seems to be a big hit but i really do not like his recording..its too mechanical for me, i could go on because i have about a zillion recordings of this piece but...ASIDE from the rach 2 cziffra has SO MANY amazing recordings, i could make a list almost a mile long.  So as it sounds, i'm pretty queer for Cziffra....hope all is well!

Cheers!
Ricky

Offline stevie

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #63 on: February 09, 2006, 05:19:28 AM
hahaha respect

i dont think cziffra is underrated as a technician , except when people compare him to hamelin and say hamelin is better.

the thing is, hamelin has around equal raw mechanical ability to cziffra, but his style is much less volatile, and more clean and polished, wheras cziffra isnt dirty or messy, but more volatile.

one has to hear cziffra improvise to realise that his command of the piano in EVERY sense is second to none.

Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #64 on: February 09, 2006, 05:24:55 AM
It seems to me that many of you are WAY underestimating Gyorgy Cziffra's abilities.

musically yes, especially by critics and snobbish pianophiles. Technically, no because any man and his dog can hear that great technique. Hamelin is more perfect than Cziffra but it's hard to compare between them. I think its much harder to be clean and polished than volatile (well obviously). Being volatile invites the "oh I could play perfectly if I wanted to" excuse, not that cziffra would need that coz he plays damn near perfect anyway. It's too hard to judge technique's right up near the high end of piano playing.

Offline stevie

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #65 on: February 09, 2006, 05:39:39 AM
by clean and polished i meant smooth sounding, the thing is that cziffra and hamelin have wanted completely different things, and i have come to realise that their raw technical talent is around level.

but i think cziffra is the more creative pianist, and my preferred one on most occasions, his improvisations also boggle my mind.

Offline countchocula

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #66 on: February 09, 2006, 06:49:48 AM
musically yes, especially by critics and snobbish pianophiles. Technically, no because any man and his dog can hear that great technique. Hamelin is more perfect than Cziffra but it's hard to compare between them. I think its much harder to be clean and polished than volatile (well obviously). Being volatile invites the "oh I could play perfectly if I wanted to" excuse, not that cziffra would need that coz he plays *** near perfect anyway. It's too hard to judge technique's right up near the high end of piano playing.

You are saying "volatile vs. clean", but in this case of Cziffra vs. Hamelin it is "spontaneous sounding, risk-taking raw excitement and electricity vs. measured, overcooked, and square pinpoint accuracy"
Take your pick. 

Offline countchocula

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #67 on: February 09, 2006, 06:50:59 AM
musically yes, especially by critics and snobbish pianophiles. Technically, no because any man and his dog can hear that great technique. Hamelin is more perfect than Cziffra but it's hard to compare between them. I think its much harder to be clean and polished than volatile (well obviously). Being volatile invites the "oh I could play perfectly if I wanted to" excuse, not that cziffra would need that coz he plays *** near perfect anyway. It's too hard to judge technique's right up near the high end of piano playing.

You are saying "volatile vs. clean", but in this case of Cziffra vs. Hamelin it is "spontaneous sounding, risk-taking raw excitement and electricity vs. measured, overcooked, and square pinpoint accuracy"
Take your pick.  

Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #68 on: February 09, 2006, 07:30:20 AM
You are saying "volatile vs. clean", but in this case of Cziffra vs. Hamelin it is "spontaneous sounding, risk-taking raw excitement and electricity vs. measured, overcooked, and square pinpoint accuracy"
Take your pick.  


Not sure how relevant your post is. Firstly, it was Stevie who brought up the issue of volatile and clean, I was using his words to try to respond to his point. Secondly, that is just your opinion, others might find Cziffra to be "haphazard, wilful, wayward, cavalier, egocentric" and find Hamelin "subtle, precise, un-mannered, respectful of the composer's intentions" blah blah etc. I think they are both great pianists.

Offline henrah

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #69 on: February 09, 2006, 01:44:39 PM
Until I hear Cziffra's improvisations, I am sticking to Hamelins musical insight after seeing and hearing his cadenza in Hung. Rhaps. 2, as well as the rest of the piece. Cziffra seems so powerful, even when he is playing softly; but Hamelin seems at ease whatever he plays, and has far more amusing facial expressions, especially when he played Schchedrin's Humoresque ;D ;D I also think that Hamelin has more control over tone and volume, especially in runs, than Cziffra.
Henrah

Can someone post Cziffra improvising?
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Gličre- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline stevie

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #70 on: February 10, 2006, 01:03:56 AM
hamelin doesnt really have more control, he just sounds more in control and even, because that is what he aims for, cziffra is by far the more dynamic and colourful pianist, noone could say otherwise.

cziffra has the ability to rip my face off.

i might post some cziffra improvisation later, its really the most amazing stuff ive ever heard come out of a piano.

Offline barescrotum

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #71 on: February 18, 2006, 02:13:19 AM
This is dumb as sh*t.  None of you can touch rachmaninoff, horowitz, barere or anybody good.  They are GOOD.  You are NOT.  Quit hating.  Go practice.

Offline maul

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #72 on: February 18, 2006, 02:50:51 AM
Quote from: barescrotum
This is dumb as ***.  None of you can touch rachmaninoff, horowitz, barere or anybody good.  They are GOOD.  You are NOT.  Quit hating.  Go practice.

Ah, the old "you can't criticize anybody unless you are better than them" approach. What a nice way to instantly lose all your credibility. Good job, champ.

Offline barescrotum

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #73 on: February 18, 2006, 06:36:19 AM
No,  it seems to me that any mortal man who presumes that he has the right to offer any criticism of a musical giant like Rachmaninoff without being anywhere near the same league, much less the same plane of existence of such a Divinity, is the one with no credibility.

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #74 on: February 18, 2006, 05:29:43 PM
.

Offline stevie

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #75 on: February 18, 2006, 05:46:12 PM
What is the purpose of this discussion?

to discuss whomever we think is overrated

the term virtuoso is thrown around all the time, mildly, but who truly deserves this title?

partially

Offline e60m5

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #76 on: February 18, 2006, 05:50:14 PM
No,  it seems to me that any mortal man who presumes that he has the right to offer any criticism of a musical giant like Rachmaninoff without being anywhere near the same league, much less the same plane of existence of such a Divinity, is the one with no credibility.

Don't get me wrong. I am a huge admirer of Rachmaninoff. However, to make use of such hyperbole and talk in terms of different "plane of existence" and to refer to him as a "Divinity" is surely stretching your credibility here.

Isn't it the very fact that Rachmaninoff (and others!) was (were) human that makes their achievements so incredibly amazing? If we accept this then we must accept that we can talk about them in human terms. I see nothing wrong with conjecture directed at their pianistic skills.

Must say, though, I disagree with much that has been said in this thread.

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #77 on: February 18, 2006, 08:40:58 PM
How can people have bad techniques if they are famous?, surely they wouldn't be famous if they were bad. They all have different techniques, but how vcan any be described as bad. Horowitz played octaves with low wrists, that theoretically is bad, but the speed was amaizng, therfore defying "technique", its all individual, and in my opinion no proffessional pianist has bad technique

Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #78 on: February 18, 2006, 11:32:36 PM
How can people have bad techniques if they are famous?, surely they wouldn't be famous if they were bad.

Helfgott? he is still (in)famous in my country.

Offline countchocula

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #79 on: February 19, 2006, 12:45:54 AM
Helfgott? he is still (in)famous in my country.
He is only famous because of the movie.  Not for his playing.
Actually I can't think of any very famous pianists with bad techniques, especially nowadays.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #80 on: February 19, 2006, 12:51:49 AM
He is only famous because of the movie.  Not for his playing.
Actually I can't think of any very famous pianists with bad techniques, especially nowadays.

Maksim?

Clayderman?

 ;D
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline countchocula

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #81 on: February 19, 2006, 01:01:43 AM
Maksim?

Clayderman?

 ;D
Don't know who Maksim is...Clayderman is not trying to compete with the genuine classical artists, any more than John Tesh or Yanni, he does more easy-listening type stuff.  With that in mind, he is great at what he does.

I know you know that, Bernhard!   >:(

 ;D




Offline brewtality

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #82 on: February 19, 2006, 01:09:12 AM
He is only famous because of the movie.  Not for his playing.

Indeed, but many ignorant Australians, who have forked out the 100 bucks for a ticket, actually think that he is a 'genius'.

Offline alejo_90

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Re: Overrated techniques among famous pianists
Reply #83 on: February 26, 2006, 06:10:32 AM
Quote
Indeed, but many ignorant Australians, who have forked out the 100 bucks for a ticket, actually think that he is a 'genius'.

I totally agree, just see the reviews of his rach3 recording in Amazon. Don't waste your time in listening to it, it's CRAP.

It's better to make your own mistakes than copy someone else's. - Vladimir Horowitz
 

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