help! any advice for steinway boston gp156

[chan]

Hi everyone, I am keen in getting information or advice on steinway boston 5'1" grand (model gp156).  
1. Any experience (pros/cons) and an estimated fair price for this?  I was being told that the regular retail price is USD 15000.
2. Comparison to other similar grand size with other brands?

Thanks a bunch!

[Axtremus]

Hi everyone, I am keen in getting information or advice on steinway boston 5'1" grand (model gp156).  
1. Any experience (pros/cons) and an estimated fair price for this?  I was being told that the regular retail price is USD 15000.
2. Comparison to other similar grand size with other brands?

Piano prices can vary greately from country to country, even from region to region in the same country. So it's very hard to say whether a piano is being offered at a fair price unless we confine the market to a particular region (i.e., which country/region are you in ?).

I generally consider a Boston piano a good piano, but I would caution that a Boston piano, though being sold by the same company that also happens to sell the world famous Steinway grand pianos, is NOT a Steinway grand piano. The Boston line of pianos is being made by Kawai, and I am not aware of the Boston line of pianos sharing any special part, design element, or construction process that makes a Steinway a Steinway. Regardless of the Boston brand's tie to the Stenway brand -- if you are looking for a good instrument rather than a status symbol, it is best to IGNORE the brand names altogether and go by the sound and touch of the instrument instead.

Again, keep in mind that prices vary from market to market, within the USD15000 price range, one can get an RX-2 at 5'10" or a Yamaha C-2 at 5'8". I have seen prices in the Singaporean market where even a Kawai RX-3 at 6'1" is well within USD15000. And if you can stretch that budget a bit, say by USD1000 to USD2000 more, even the Yamaha C-3 (at 6'1" , a big step up from C-2) or a Shigeru Kawai SK-2 (5'10", big step up from RX-3) may be within your reach. All these are bigger than your Boston 5'1" reference piano by 7" to 12". With smaller grand pianos, those extra inches can make a lot of difference. And personally, I would much prefer a the sound of a 6'1" Yamaha or Kawai to a 5'1" (real) Steinway Model S. (My opinion is that most grand pianos won't sound that much better than a really good upright until you get to the 6'+ sizes. The difference lie more in the touch/action where a grand piano gets assistance from gravity and an upright relies on springs to return the keys to their resting position after you release them -- touch/action is where size matters less.)

Other pianos that should be very competitive in that price range would be the Korean Young Chang and Samick, especially Young Chang's "Pramberger" line that is improving fast and is gaining better and better reputation here over in North America from what I can see. You can reasonably expect even much larger pianos from the Korean makers for the same money, or much less money for same-size pianos. (The sales people might tell you that Joseph Pramberger is the guy who once headed Steinway's piano design department and may try to infer that the Pramberger designed pianos might incorporate some Steinway elements some how through this connection -- well, just like a Boston is not a Steinway, a Young Chang Pramberger is not a Steinway either.)

I don't know how many grand pianos you have played as you shop for your piano, but assuming that you want a piano that sounds good and plays good (as oppose to a piano that carries a prestiguous brand name), I highly recommend taking your time and trying out as many different brands and models of pianos as you can within your budget (or floor space, if you have a smaller room in which to fit a piano). In the US, it is not unusual for a pianist to shop for a few months trying different pianos before actually buying one -- not only to decide on a brand or model, but very often to pick one particular instrument out of many of the same model. If after trying many pianos you eventually come back to the Boston 5'1", then you'd know that it really has the sound and touch you like most.

Good luck!

[tosca1]

Dear Chan,
I have a Boston GP178 which of course is a bigger piano than the one that you are considering.
I am very pleased with my piano and although it is not made with the individual craftmanship of the Steinway piano, it is a quality piano with some Steinway features and characteristics.
The Boston piano was designed by a design team from Steinway and Sons and the parent company is keen to maintain a close link with its moderately priced "cousin".  
The scaling of the Boston piano is based on the famous Steinway duplex scaling and  there are similarities in the action parts such as the "pear" shaped hammers.
Possibly the smaller Boston GP 156 will not give you the same bass response as the larger GP 178 but the tenor and treble should be comparable.  My tuner assures me that the Boston piano is a quality piano and from my experience of the piano I have no reason to doubt his word.
The price you mentioned of $15000 seems quite reasonable for that model.

Kind regards,
Robert.

[Axtremus]

The most important point I would like to make is to try as many different models/makes of pianos as one can before making a purchase decision, assuming one wants a piano with good sound and good touch/action suitable for oneself.

In general, I think Boston pianos are GOOD pianos -- but that does not mean they represent good VALUEs compared to the alternatives (but if the Boston is really what you want and you can afford it, than it is a good value for YOU, doesn't matter what anyone else says). In the US, the Bostons are routinely compared to the Kawai RXs and Yamaha C-series, and both are usually priced at the same level -- but I have recently seen some prices in Asian markets where somehow the Bostons are priced at a significant premium to the Kawai/Yamaha's and the Kawai/Yamaha's seem to be priced lower in Asia than in the US; when I see price descrepencies like these, I have to rethink the dollar valuation of the pianos.

I just don't think one should equate a Boston to a Steinway hoping that just because the same company sold both brands the famous "Steinway special sauce" would some how rub onto the Boston. I would rather see the Boston being judged on its own and being priced as such -- independent of its more famous cousin and without the associated price premium for any (mis)perceived relationship to Steinway. Drawing an automobile analogy, compare a Mercedes Benz and a Crysler: when a consumer buys a Chrysler in the US, the consumer never thinks that he is buying any Mercedes Benz design or parts, and would not pay more for the Chrysler than he would a comparable alternative -- no price premium for the Chrysler just because it's parent company also sells Mercedes Benz. (And, no knocking on the Crysler -- they make good cars too!)

Quoting from a book by D.W. Fostle (1994) titled "The Steinway Saga,"

"Not sharing proportionally in the growth of the grand piano market and beset by much cheaper grands from Japan and Korea -- the "piano-shaped objects" to which Bruce Stevens (the then President of Steinway Musical Products) referred -- the strategy was to enter what would once have been called the "commercial" piano business."... a new piano to be made by Kawai and called "Boston"..."When queried on the identity of the designers, Bruce Stevens stated that they were the engineers in Astoria [Steinway headquater in Long Island, New York]; that none of these engineers had ever designed a piano before was candidly admitted. They had, however, taken a one-day scale design seminar from an outside consultant and were adept in the use of computers."

Duplex scaling is today quite common in grand pianos (especially in the 6'+ sizes), most of the Eastern European, Japanese, Korean, and Chinese made pianos have it. While Yamaha and Kawai use their own action, you would find that many Eastern European and Korean grand pianos use Renner action (German Steinways use Renner as well but the US Steinways uses Steinway's own "accelerated" action). Wouldn't hurt to ask what kind of action is used in the Boston (could be Kawai's action, could be Renner). The "accelerated" Steinway action, double-crowned diaphragmatic soundboard, Hexagrip pin block, continuous-bent hard rock maple rim -- all these features touted by Steinway and vital to the sound and touch of the piano will likely not make it to the Boston. The computer-designed pear-shaped hammers in Boston could not have been in the older Steinways (early 1900's when Steinway built its reputation) because computers weren't used to design pianos back then. The pear-shape hammer may be a good innovation, but that's hardly the "Steinway special sauce." (Hack, I don't even think that today's Steinway uses computer-designed pear-shaped hammers or whether other companies also use them -- but I have to check.)

Piano scale design and component quality aside, workmanship of assembly is also very important -- after all, we're putting something like 8000+ parts, with 6000+ of which are moving/vibrating into a grand piano. And then there is voicing and regulation. I am not aware of any work force transfer where experienced Steinway workers from New York or Hamburg get assigned to build, regulate, or voice the Bostons in Japan.

There is much more discussion on the Steinway-Boston-Kawai triangle relationship on line if you are interested: https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003448

All said, Boston is a GOOD QUALITY piano (and I am happy for Robert/tosca1 that he found one he loves so much) - just not a Steinway. Whether or not all Steinways represent GOOD QUALITY or good VALUE is yet another subject.

Personally, I just place more emphasis on sound and touch than the name on the piano. I believe that the more different pianos one plays, the better an idea one will have on what kind of sound and touch one truly prefers and loves. As far as design quality, build quality, and longevity/durability of pianos go, a piano technician would be more qualified to comment. Whether or not chan ends up with the Boston GP156, I wish him/her luck all the way getting the piano he/she wants!

[Hmoll]

I haven't played the Boston model you are referring to. I agree with the poster who suggested trying several pianos before you make a decision.

IMO, 5'1" is very small for a grand, and if you have room, you should think of a larger instrument.

Boston pianos were Steinway's solution to the middle market piano. They were "designed" by two engineers who worked at the S&S factory in Astoria, NY, and who had never designed a piano before, but   - in preparation - taken a one-day scale design course from an outside - i.e. non-Steinway - consultant.  Currently, they are manufactured by Kawai in Japan, and have more in common with those instruments - I actually prefer the Kawais.  So, I would not refer to them as "Steinway Bostons" because they are so far removed from S&S pianos.

While you are playing other instruments, check out the Estonia 5'6" - can't remember the model # - which cost a little more than the Boston you quoted. I find Estonias much closer to the Steinway sound than Bostons.

[tosca1]

When John P and Robert Birmingham bought what was called "Steinway Musical Properties Incorporated" they introduced in 1992 something that Steinway and Sons had resisted throughout its existence.  They introduced the mid-priced piano and in 1992 Kawai was building a piano for Steinway and Sons named "Boston" after the hometown of of the Birmingham brothers. There is a very close link between Steinway and Sons and the Boston company. The pianos are marketed by Steinway and Sons and are given a 10 year warranty called the "Steinway Promise".  It is vital to Steinway and Sons, whose name appears on the frame of the Boston piano, that standards of quality and excellence for this mid priced piano are maintained.

Indeed most of the Boston grands that I have tried, particularly the GP 178 and longer models, have been delightful instruments. They have a sweet, singing voice which immediately sets them apart from most other Asian pianos and indeed many European and American pianos as well.

Regards,
Robert.

[Axtremus]

The pianos are marketed by Steinway and Sons and are given a 10 year warranty called the "Steinway Promise".

Thanks for the info. I was not previously aware of the Boston line's 10-year warranty. The Steinway line only carries a five-year warranty. (Now that I think about it, if Kawai can, and does, offer a 10 year warranty for their Kawai-branded pianos, there is no reason that they cannot give their OEM customer that same 10 year warranty, and Steinway would have no reason not to pass that 10 year warranty along to the end customer.)

[tosca1]

Thank you for your very informative posts Axtremus. The "Steinway Promise" affirms that the full purchase price of a Boston piano will be refunded should the owner decide to upgrade to a new Steinway grand within ten years.  Obviously, there is a commercial reason for this and part of the original concept for developing this mid-range piano was that it would be an initial step to getting a Steinway.  This "promise" is in addition to the 10 year warranty.  Possibly this generous warranty cover may not apply in all countries.

Regards,
Robert.

[Plaz]

Chan, like Axtremus states, the Boston pianos are good, but they're not Steinways.  I currently own a GP178 which has served me quite well during the past six years.

FWIW, the "Steinway Promise" to allow you to upgrade your Boston to a Steinway isn't quite all it's cracked up to be.  I was recently in New York at Steinway Hall and found a beautiful Model B that I was (am) seriously considering.  I found out that Steinway Hall will NOT honor the full-price trade-in policy that I thought was part of the deal when purchasing a Boston.  My local dealer will, but he doesn't have the right piano.

I'd think you should be able to get a new Boston GP156 for around $14,000.  I'd probably recommend a bigger piano if at all possible.  For around 15,000 you may be able to get a Kawai RX-1 (5'5") or RX-2 (5'10") or even my used Boston GP178 (5'10") .

[tosca1]

Dear Plaz,
If I were you I would challenge Steinway Hall over that.  I have not read the fine print of the so-called "Steinway Promise" but to me it seems outrageous that they should dishonour this. It could certainly be very adverse publicity if you were to take them to task over that.  
Regards,
Robert.

[Axtremus]

... I was recently in New York at Steinway Hall and found a beautiful Model B that I was (am) seriously considering.  ...
I'd think you should be able to get a new Boston GP156 for around $14,000.  I'd probably recommend a bigger piano if at all possible.  For around 15,000 you may be able to get a Kawai RX-1 (5'5") or RX-2 (5'10") or even my used Boston GP178 (5'10") .

I was in New York Steinway Hall recently trying out a few very impressive Model B's (all new, all black). It seems Steinway has produced a very good batch of Model B's these couple of years. Do you remember which one you liked (e.g., serial number or parts of it) ? I took down some notes while there. I might have tried "your" Model B.

For some reason, the Bostons in Steinway Hall didn't impress me as much as those I played a few years ago -- may be the Model B's raised the bar for me subconciously as I only casually tried the Bostons after a very good session with the Model B's.

The RX-2, at the same length as Steinway Model L, is a very good instrument in my oppinion. As for the prices, yeah, I concur with you it's quite possible to get an RX-2 for ~USD15k, may be even cheaper in some Asian markets. I've seen as recently as September 2003 somebody quoting a new black Shigeru Kawai's SK-3 for less than USD18.5k and new black K. Kawai RX-2 for under USD12.5k in South East Asia -- really amazing deals!

[Plaz]

Do you remember which one you liked (e.g., serial number or parts of it) ? I took down some notes while there. I might have tried "your" Model B.

Yeah, it was serial number 564894, with a couple of minor scratches and dings on the top of the lid near the back.  Other than the dings, I thought it was prepped better than most of the others and had a clearer tone.  I would be very interested if you had taken any notes about it, since I have until Thursday to decide whether or not to purchase it.  If only they would take my Boston on trade...

[Axtremus]

Yeah, it was serial number 564894, with a couple of minor scratches and dings on the top of the lid near the back. ... I would be very interested if you had taken any notes about it, since I have until Thursday to decide whether or not to purchase it.  If only they would take my Boston on trade...

Sorry... I don't have anything written down on that particular one. The closest serial number I have notes on missed yours by 45. Anyway, I do find many of Steinway Hall's Model B's more appealing than those I find in dealers' show rooms. So it could really be the case that Steinway Hall puts more into their piano prep. work, and top-notch prep. work does cost more money that dealers may or may not be willing to spend. I certainly wish you luck in making it affordable for yourself to own the piano you love.

[chan]

Thank you all for your kind responses.  I was out of town for the past few weeks and were very grateful to see many advices when I came back.  I learned alot regarding the Boston model.  Thanks !!

I live in Toronto Canada and as recommended I will check out other brands first before committing to the Boston model.  I was currently able to locate a Yamaha, Petrof, Estonia, and Rieger-Kloss dealers.  I think they are comparable to the Boston model.

Thanks again for your kind responses.  Will update once I am able to try things out.

[Axtremus]

chan, glad to see that we haven't scare you off.

As you shop around, keep in mind that, except for real Steinway pianos, most piano dealers discount significantly from the list price. So if you find something you like with a price tag that is seemingly out of your budget, ask the seller if indeed that is the real price before walking away. There are other resources such as the https://www.bluebookofpianos.com/ and https://www.pianobook.com/ that can help you with pricing. The later even offers advice on how to estimate potential discounts, though that info is not free.

Good luck!