what does this symbol mean?... x

[tickling]

I have grade 8 piano  but haven't taken lessons in 10 years.  I keep coming across this symbol which i can't find a description for anywhere.  If you want to see it in context, it's on pg 2 of Chopin Nocturne 15.3   ...2nd bar from the bottom.

It looks like an "x" placed right beside a note.  Is this related to a natural? or does it mean repeat the same way it was played last? or?

I would appreciate your help !!!
thanks

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

That is a double sharp, which raised a note by a whole step. I hope this helps.

[jamie_liszt]

Yes x before a note is a double sharp and means to raise it a full tone, eg: D double sharped would be E, there are also double flats which is to flat symbols = bb, its the opposite, it lowers it a semitone,  D double flat would be C.

Good luck with your pieces.

[lau]

What is the point of having a double sharp or flat?

Instead of writing D double sharp, why don't you just write E?!?!

[stevie]

What is the point of having a double sharp or flat?

Instead of writing D double sharp, why don't you just write E?!?!

its all about context and how the note theoreticaslly connects to the key its in

[spitz]

Look at the Moonlight 1st and 3rd movement. Instead of writing a g natural which looks ugly write a f x which looks amazingly better

[tickling]

thanks for the help!  mystery solved!  I don't believe I ever learned that one.

one more quick question concerning this...

do you still take into account whether that note had an accidental in the previous bar or do you double sharp it in it's natural form?

eg... in G minor, what would "xF" be that was "#F" in the previous bar?



thanks so much,

[debussy symbolism]

I am pretty sure that you double sharp the natural note. Hope this helps.

[elspeth]

You treat double sharps and flats by exactly the same rules for single ones - in the current bar only, take the note as it ought to be from the key signature, then raise or lower that accordingly. Unless of course that note has already had accidentals in the current bar, but usually the whole point of double sharps/flats is to stop the composer having to write the same note a few times with a different accidental every time.

Therefore, in g minor, your key signature is two flats, therefore if you see F double sharp, the F is natural to start with so one you've applied the double sharp it'd turn into G. If you were in b minor, two sharps in the key signature, you'd start from F sharp so you'd end up on G sharp.

[leahcim]

do you still take into account whether that note had an accidental in the previous bar or do you double sharp it in it's natural form?

You double sharp in it's natural form, but I think to think of it like that loses the context that Stevie mentions.

I think the way to think of it in context, is, that in the current key [which might not be the key signature key, if the piece has modulated], you're sharpening an interval where "unsharpened" - the 3rd, 5th or whatever interval it is, is already a # note.

So harmonically it might be root, 3rd, sharpened 5th [for an augmented chord for example]

If the 5th note is G, then it's G#, no problem.
But if the 5th note is D#, then the sharpened 5th is D##.

i,e the double sharp symbol is not a capricious or arbitrary way to write G using F. So it shouldn't be used [i.e you shouldn't see it] in a context where the correct thing to write is G or G natural and vice-versa and the places where you do see it, if you look at it in context it should make sense and be consistent with the way other sharps, flats and naturals are notated.

Similarly and related in a sense. Although there is no black note between B and C or E and F, in some contexts notating B# or E# is correct because you're sharpening that interval and playing a B or an E, not playing C or F, even though they are the same note on the piano.

[avetma]

You double sharp in it's natural form, but I think to think of it like that loses the context that Stevie mentions.

I think the way to think of it in context, is, that in the current key [which might not be the key signature key, if the piece has modulated], you're sharpening an interval where "unsharpened" - the 3rd, 5th or whatever interval it is, is already a # note.

So harmonically it might be root, 3rd, sharpened 5th [for an augmented chord for example]

If the 5th note is G, then it's G#, no problem.
But if the 5th note is D#, then the sharpened 5th is D##.

i,e the double sharp symbol is not a capricious or arbitrary way to write G using F. So it shouldn't be used [i.e you shouldn't see it] in a context where the correct thing to write is G or G natural and vice-versa and the places where you do see it, if you look at it in context it should make sense and be consistent with the way other sharps, flats and naturals are notated.

Similarly and related in a sense. Although there is no black note between B and C or E and F, in some contexts notating B# or E# is correct because you're sharpening that interval and playing a B or an E, not playing C or F, even though they are the same note on the piano.

Besides that, my teacher told me that; reffered to ex. violin - D# and Eb have not same sound.

[berrt]

What is the point of having a double sharp or flat?

Instead of writing D double sharp, why don't you just write E?!?!

The E might be "sharped" anyway, so writing "E" would be "E#".

[debussy symbolism]

What is the point of having a double sharp or flat?

Instead of writing D double sharp, why don't you just write E?!?!

It might be a correct notation. While the note will be E, the correct notation would be double sharp. Sometimes it might be necessary to use the double sharps and flats. Hope this helps.

[quantum]

What is the point of having a double sharp or flat?

Instead of writing D double sharp, why don't you just write E?!?!

Here is an example: 
You are in G# minor and there is a V-I cadence with melody going Fx - G#.  Yes it would be easier to write this G nat - G#, but functionally wouldn't make sense.  Transpose the same passage into C minor and it becomes Cb - C nat:  now that makes even less sense. 


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Going from memory: if the key signature has an F# and the note given is Fx, the played note would be G natural not G#.  If it was Fx# (tripple sharp) under the same conditions, then yes the played note would be G#.