Bernhard's thread on hand cueing and "dropping notes"

[thomasofcanterbury]

I have a followup question to a thread I read last night from Bernhard.  It was about hand coordination, or cueing, and the method for encouraging this was called "dropping" notes, wherein the pianists would play the right hand, and then start adding notes here and there on the left hand.  The idea, if I understand the reasoning correctly, was to train the hands to play together in a way so that the hands were neither dependent or independent of each other.  Rather, there is a coordination of the hands.

Well, the other night as I was practicing a piece that I can already play hands-together, I decided to play it hands-seperate to polish up some imperfections.  I played the right hand just fine.  But then, when it came to play the left hand, I suddenly realized that was very unsure of it, and made several mistakes.  Basically, I came full circle, in that I could no longer play the left hand by itself -- but I had once been able to because I had practiced hands separate, before joining!

I was a little troubled because I was not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing.  Is this a sign that my right hand was "cueing" my left hand as what to play?  Is that what we want, in the end, since the composition is meant to be played hands together, and not separate?
Or, is this a bad thing in that my left hand is too DEPENDENT on the right hand?

Also, once you start playing hands together, isn't there always a danger of forgetting the hands separate memories, and just keeping the hands together?  If so, is this necessarily a bad thing?

[rimv2]

I have a followup question to a thread I read last night from Bernhard.  It was about hand coordination, or cueing, and the method for encouraging this was called "dropping" notes, wherein the pianists would play the right hand, and then start adding notes here and there on the left hand.  The idea, if I understand the reasoning correctly, was to train the hands to play together in a way so that the hands were neither dependent or independent of each other.  Rather, there is a coordination of the hands.

Well, the other night as I was practicing a piece that I can already play hands-together, I decided to play it hands-seperate to polish up some imperfections.  I played the right hand just fine.  But then, when it came to play the left hand, I suddenly realized that was very unsure of it, and made several mistakes.  Basically, I came full circle, in that I could no longer play the left hand by itself -- but I had once been able to because I had practiced hands separate, before joining!

I was a little troubled because I was not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing.  Is this a sign that my right hand was "cueing" my left hand as what to play?  Is that what we want, in the end, since the composition is meant to be played hands together, and not separate?
Or, is this a bad thing in that my left hand is too DEPENDENT on the right hand?

Also, once you start playing hands together, isn't there always a danger of forgetting the hands separate memories, and just keeping the hands together?  If so, is this necessarily a bad thing?

Tis bad.

Ah can't play the middle section of Chopins 69-1 without the right leading the left. HS with the left and  its a gonner.

Best wishes,

Karrim

[zheer]

I have a followup question to a thread I read last night from Bernhard.  It was about hand coordination, or cueing, and the method for encouraging this was called "dropping" notes, wherein the pianists would play the right hand, and then start adding notes here and there on the left hand.  The idea, if I understand the reasoning correctly, was to train the hands to play together in a way so that the hands were neither dependent or independent of each other.  Rather, there is a coordination of the hands.

 

   Am glad that Bernard thought that that was a goog idea, cause i was trying that with Chopins Etude 25/12, i was playing the left hand all the way through and dropping notes here and there with the right hand. Its worth a try.

[rc]

I was a little troubled because I was not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing.  Is this a sign that my right hand was "cueing" my left hand as what to play?  Is that what we want, in the end, since the composition is meant to be played hands together, and not separate?
Or, is this a bad thing in that my left hand is too DEPENDENT on the right hand?

Also, once you start playing hands together, isn't there always a danger of forgetting the hands separate memories, and just keeping the hands together?  If so, is this necessarily a bad thing?

The idea I got from Bernhards cueing concept was more in relation to it's use of getting rid of hesitations. As in, wherever there's a hesitation you make a mental cue to prepare for it the next time it comes and practice remembering that cue to get rid of the hesitations.

I'm sure we're using cues all the time in every memorized piece, but they just become one subconscious, connected whole by the end. I find the concept only useful in removing hesitations, and very useful too!

Anyways, your problem of forgetting one hand happens to me too. I think it's more of a memory gap than anything. Your hands have been programmed what to do together and you always practice with attention on your RH, but you still have the physical memory that your LH know what to do even if you aren't paying any attention to it. You could call it being cued by the RH.

I don't see this as a HUGE problem, since you've learned the piece well enough that you could probably play it well without paying attention to either hand. The problem comes in that you have no backup memory if things go wrong. If you're performing and the nerves get to ya and you screw up, you probably won't be able to make a graceful recovery if you can't remember what's supposed to come next. That's when the problem becomes big

Like I said, this happens fairly often with me too. Every so often I'll play through a piece HS, and either be surprised to see that it's all still fine, or realize I have to remember some details. But since the hands already know what to do physically, it's more a matter of intellectually remembering (visual I believe). Also a problem I sometimes have when doing things HS is to overanalyse the movements and screw myself up, if it works fine HT there's no need to screw with it HS.

[bernhard]

I have a followup question to a thread I read last night from Bernhard.  It was about hand coordination, or cueing, and the method for encouraging this was called "dropping" notes, wherein the pianists would play the right hand, and then start adding notes here and there on the left hand.  The idea, if I understand the reasoning correctly, was to train the hands to play together in a way so that the hands were neither dependent or independent of each other.  Rather, there is a coordination of the hands.

Yes, you understood it correctly.

Well, the other night as I was practicing a piece that I can already play hands-together, I decided to play it hands-seperate to polish up some imperfections.  I played the right hand just fine.  But then, when it came to play the left hand, I suddenly realized that was very unsure of it, and made several mistakes.  Basically, I came full circle, in that I could no longer play the left hand by itself -- but I had once been able to because I had practiced hands separate, before joining!

If you want to polish imperfections of a technical nature (fingering, wrong notes, inappropriate motions), hands separate work is mandatory. You cannot work on these imperfections with hands together. However, and a surprising large number of people miss this point, it is also mandatory that technical work of this sort be carried out in very small sections, sometimes a couple of bars, and in extreme cases a couple of notes. A lot of people who have not been taught how to practise correctly and efficiently will play through the whole piece several times – and consistently make a mess on the bit that have trouble with – be it with separate hands or hands together. Of course not only this does not work as it will ingrain the mistake in the unconscious.

Once you decide on the size f the section you are going to work on, by all means do separate hands work and memorise each hand. But as soon as you feel you have corrected the mistakes/ imperfections, join hands and get over the co-ordination bit. Then join the section to the rest of the piece (or to the larger section where it belongs) with hands together. There is no need to learn – and memorise – a whole piece with hands separate. The only exception to his rule is counterpoint music (e.g. Bach) where it is very helpful to know in detail each of the melodic lines, and even then it is not so much hands separate that you learn, as separate voices.

It is also possible that your left hand problem is of a different sort altogether. Have a look here where it is all explained in detail:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2720.msg23353.html#msg23353
(How to practice aim and accuracy – looking at the LH and giving verbal instructions to the RH – Full discussion on left and right brain).

I was a little troubled because I was not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing.  Is this a sign that my right hand was "cueing" my left hand as what to play?  Is that what we want, in the end, since the composition is meant to be played hands together, and not separate?
Or, is this a bad thing in that my left hand is too DEPENDENT on the right hand?

Yes, it is a very good thing. You must understand that there are different stages in learning a piece. At the “accomplished” stage both your hands should be in total collaborations and act as a unity (not exactly dependent and not exactly independent, but each absorbing information from the other). Trying to keep track – which I suspect is what you are trying to do – of what each hand is doing will cause minor disasters. At a certain point, you must let the unconscious take care of the motions and co-ordinations: the conscious mind simply cannot cope with the complexith of the task. The conscious mind is only helpful at the stage where you are carefully programming yore unconscious for the task.. At that stage the conscious mind is irreplaceable. But because the conscious mind is so limited, you must simplify the task by separating hands, working on small sections and playing in slow motion.

This is exactly analogous to computer programming. The actual writing of the program has to be done very carefully, it is slow work, and you must be on a constant watch put for bugs. But once the program is written, you let the CPU get on with it. You do not keep trying to keep track of “which line of the program is the computer executing right now”. Of course if the program has problems, then you have to take it apart, but you do not rewrite the whole thing. You identify the chunk where the problem lies and correct it.

Also, once you start playing hands together, isn't there always a danger of forgetting the hands separate memories, and just keeping the hands together?  If so, is this necessarily a bad thing?

There is no need or usefulness in remembering hands separate. The only reason to work on hands separate (and always in small sections) is to figure out the technique to play the section. Join hands as soon as possible (this sometimes may be along time depnding on the difficulty of the section) and memorise the piece with hands together (in any case you only develop true hand memory with hands together).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lagin]

My teacher has us memorize each voice separately with the fingering we would use if it was all voices together in Bach fugues.  Then we can use the music to do different combinations of voices, like 1 and 3, or 2 and 3, ect., and finally we play it all together by memory.  I've always just learned fugues hands together .  Is this the correct way to do it?  Her way I mean?  She says you can tell the difference in the two ways of preparation when listening to the finished products, who did which way I mean.  Can you?

[bernhard]

My teacher has us memorize each voice separately with the fingering we would use if it was all voices together in Bach fugues.  Then we can use the music to do different combinations of voices, like 1 and 3, or 2 and 3, ect., and finally we play it all together by memory.  I've always just learned fugues hands together .  Is this the correct way to do it?  Her way I mean?  She says you can tell the difference in the two ways of preparation when listening to the finished products, who did which way I mean.  Can you?

Yes, I agree with your teacher. That is how I do it (which does not necessarily mean it is the way, after all we may both be wrong - althoug I don´think so. )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.