What is Sorabji's Most Difficult Piece?

[ryguillian]

What is Sorabji's most difficult piece?

—Ryan

[ahinton]

What is Sorabji's most difficult piece?

—Ryan

I can see that this thread - if it is developed - will get us all into all manner of considerations that have already bee aired exhaustively elsewhere within this forum. Much as I am well aware that it is rude to answer a question with another question, suffice it for the moment to repeat the question "what is meant by "difficult"?". One person's difficulty is another person's ease. We have here to consider matters of physical mécanique at the piano, musical intelligence and perception, mental and physical stamina and all the rest. Without first setting down the specific parameters of difficulty to be directly addressed by this question, it would, I suggest, be "difficult" - if not actually impossible - to answer it intelligently or conclusively.

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

agreed, this is most likely a re-hashing of SOOOOOOOOO many discussions about this composer.  Besides isn't the answer that 99% is going to say fairly obvious?

[Ruro]

 I think you would be suprised MikeyG, I would most certainly say something else as opposed to the infamous(?) two lettered abbreviation.

 What we need about now... is Ahinton to pull out his secret stash of Sorabji Related Links to redirect all curious Sorabji fans and all alike to the old ones ^_^

 That's a thought, does the Sorabji archive have a list of Sorabji recordings? You don't have to answer that, I'm heading over there now! Just thought I would address it anyway.

 And I completely agree with your post Ahinton!

EDIT: That's an interesting... umm... thing, could have sworn your name was MikeyG... I presume you are the same person though *shrugs*
Further more, I see a Fantaisie-Impromptu thread floating around here! Omg, somewhat Dejavu

[ryguillian]

Sometimes I start extremely general topics just to see what kind of responses I'll get. For example, in the "Anything but Piano" part of the forum I've started two topics "Jesus" and "Is there a God?"—it's quite awesome to see people argue over a few lines of text.

God speed
   and
      best wishes;
verbose and obfuscated writing à la Hinton;
  sorry I couldn't fit in more grave and acute
     accents,

—R.

[Ruro]

it's quite awesome to see people argue over a few lines of text

AHAHAHA, yeah, bless the Internet for it's Infinate Comedy.

Ryguillian is the Whisk and we are the Egg Yolk! We need folk like you to stick around! Anyhow, I'm off to bed, getting late!

On a side note, if you havn't heard Nikos Skalkottas already, get his Piano Concerto No.3, I just aquired the recording by MADGE (no kidding) performing on Piano... and it sounds GOOD, and bloomin unique *Insanely Recommend* Can't wait to hear his other ones where he uses full orchestra O_o Need to grab onto my seat for those I bet!

[JCarey]

What is Sorabji's most difficult piece?

Sorabji? Difficult? Sorabji's music is easy, don't you know that by now?

On a side note, if you havn't heard Nikos Skalkottas already, get his Piano Concerto No.3, I just aquired the recording by MADGE (no kidding) performing on Piano... and it sounds GOOD, and bloomin unique *Insanely Recommend* Can't wait to hear his other ones where he uses full orchestra O_o Need to grab onto my seat for those I bet!

I'm not familiar with those concerti, but I recommend that you also check out some other recordings of them - just about all of Madge's playing that I've heard is very unclean, inaccurate and "choppy."

[steveie986]

Sorabji is worthless.

[pita bread]

Sorabji is worthless.

So are you.

[panic]

Not that they're anything close to identical, but I would think it's kind of hard to like Alkan and hate Sorabji...Both are epic, briliant, and difficult music, Sorabji more realistic, Alkan more poetic.

[steveie986]

Panic, I think you are confusing me with stevie.

[panic]

That I am. 

[ahinton]

Sometimes I start extremely general topics just to see what kind of responses I'll get.

No harm in that, as far as it goes...

For example, in the "Anything but Piano" part of the forum I've started two topics "Jesus" and "Is there a God?"—it's quite awesome to see people argue over a few lines of text.

Well, it is surely not too unreasonable to suppose that those two topics might be of serious interest to some readers...

God speed.

Should we assume from this that you do believe in God - and that He operates at a high metronome mark?...

verbose and obfuscated writing à la Hinton;.

Have another look at my initial response to your opening salvo; whilst it's true that it did not answer your question as simply as you might like (i.e. with the title of a single Sorabji piece), preferring instead to challenge the validity of your question, if that response is either verbose or obfuscated, then so's "Mary had a little lamb".

sorry I couldn't fit in more grave and acute accents,

Why? Where? (or is that too many difficult words?)

But enough of this. Let's at least try to approach the question seriously. What kinds of difficulty might we be considering here? There are several, including but not limited to
1. Musical / interpretative difficulty
2. Digital dexterity
3. Mental agility and concentration
4. Mental / physical co-ordination
5. Mental and physical stamina (particularly in the long works)
6. Projection to audiences in public recitals
most of which may be thought to pertain in extremis in some of Sorabji's most demanding music.

But then should we not also be thinking about who it is that encounters the difficulty? It is likely that the questioner has in mind pianists (which is perfectly understandable), but what about listeners, or conductors of the orchestral works (most of which have yet to be performed, admittedly), for example? And what about organists? - an interesting case, due consideration of which must take on board the fact that only one organist in living memory has ever tackled Sorabji's organ music, whereas in the past 30 years or so, a far greater number of pianists have performed his piano music.

Obviously, Sorabji's large-scale works are likely to be thought of as those containing the greatest degrees of difficulty of all kinds. Of course, OC is always mentioned in such a context (has any visitor to Piano Street not encoutered it somewhere? - I seriously doubt it!) - yet there are quite a few other works of 2 hours or more in duration - including all three organ symphonies - many of which have yet to be performed. Even if we concentrate solely on those large works for the purpose of finding the answer, it would be well-nigh impossible to do this with any degree of reliability, since it would be a daunting task indeed to assess unperformed works in terms of any kinds of difficulty and then compare them to performed works, would it not?

Over to anyone else with other ideas...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

Panic, I think you are confusing me with stevie.

hahaha mildly

my view on sorabji -

interesting, and i love a few shorter works, but i havent yet been able to get into the cleavage-cum-bucket yet

[JCarey]

Sorabji is worthless.

I would like to quote something that Alistair Hinton said on another forum (if that is OK with him - if not, I'll gladly remove it):

Sound and thorough musicological judgement based upon tried and tested scholastic musical terminology. Not.

If you're going to make a statement like that, could you at least have the courtesy to explain why you feel that way? If a type of music is able to be enjoyed by other people, or even just its composer, does it not have musical worth? I say that your comment was worthless rubbish, because you not only didn't bother to explain why you felt Sorabji's music was worthless but because you obviously don't understand the meaning of "worth" in the first place!

interesting, and i love a few shorter works, but i havent yet been able to get into the cleavage-cum-bucket yet

Ahem... I believe you mean "Clavi-cem-balisticum."

[ahinton]

I would like to quote something that Alistair Hinton said on another forum (if that is OK with him - if not, I'll gladly remove it):

Absolutely no need to remove it as far as I am concerned; my only comment here is that I would prefer it to be understood that the context of my remark quoted here was that of my response to someone who, on the thread concerned, had written
"Opus Clavicembalisticum is crap, btw"
which is pretty much on the same level as - albeit more specific and less sweeping than - the wholly unsupported comment to which John appropriately responds here.

I agree with the remainder of what John writes. Writing that a particular composer is "worthless" or that one of his works is "crap" informs no one of anything at all except that the writer has written it. There's nothing wrong with opinions - where, indeed, would any of us be without them? - but presenting opinions that are wholly without substance or support as though they were incontrovertible dogma is something that all of us can well do without - but, as we all know to our cost, there's a lot of it about...

Best,

Alistair

[apion]

Unless a person has played every note of each and every one of his compositions, how can one say which is his most difficult?  Otherwise, it's pure speculation, and thus worthless BS.

[Etude]

--

[minor9th]

I think OC encapsulates all of Sorabji's difficult elements: mechanical/dexterity issues, stamina, rhythmic complexity, dynamics, counterpoint, etc. If a certain piece of his exceeds this one in a particular area, aren't we really splitting hairs? Is it necessary to even have or need a more difficult piece?

[ahinton]

I think OC encapsulates all of Sorabji's difficult elements: mechanical/dexterity issues, stamina, rhythmic complexity, dynamics, counterpoint, etc. If a certain piece of his exceeds this one in a particular area, aren't we really splitting hairs? Is it necessary to even have or need a more difficult piece?

For what it may or may not be worth (or be thought to be worth), Sorabji politely but firmly declined an invitation from me (in 1972) to play any parts of his (then four) piano symphonies to me, on the alleged grounds that they were "far worse to play" than OC. To date, two of the (now six) piano symphonies (specifically nos. 4 & 5) have been performed in public (5 just the once and 4 several times) and - again, for what it may or may not be worth - Marc-André Hamelin (who was not the performer of either) has considered no. 1 much easier to play than OC and the performers of nos, 4 & 5 have not complained about its difficulty. As it happens, neither of thsese pianists (Donna Amato and Reinier van Houdt) has performed OC. I think that Sorabji may possibly have underestimated the general difficulty of OC in comparison to the remainder of his large-scale piano works and I do happen to think that, hard as they are, none of the six piano symphonies probably exceed the general levels of difficulty to be encountered in OC. That said, there are other works to consider and only someone who is (as an earlier contributor sensibly suggested) extremely well versed in all of these big works would likely be in any position to offer meaningful pronouncements on the subject of comparative difficulty. All that I write here remains also subject to the caveats that I set down in the first - and a later - response to this thread.

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

For what it may or may not be worth (or be thought to be worth), Sorabji politely but firmly declined an invitation from me (in 1972) to play any parts of his (then four) piano symphonies to me, on the alleged grounds that they were "far worse to play" than OC. To date, two of the (now six) piano symphonies (specifically nos. 4 & 5) have been performed in public (5 just the once and 4 several times) and - again, for what it may or may not be worth - Marc-André Hamelin (who was not the performer of either) has considered no. 1 much easier to play than OC and the performers of nos, 4 & 5 have not complained about its difficulty. As it happens, neither of thsese pianists (Donna Amato and Reinier van Houdt) has performed OC. I think that Sorabji may possibly have underestimated the general difficulty of OC in comparison to the remainder of his large-scale piano works and I do happen to think that, hard as they are, none of the six piano symphonies probably exceed the general levels of difficulty to be encountered in OC. That said, there are other works to consider and only someone who is (as an earlier contributor sensibly suggested) extremely well versed in all of these big works would likely be in any position to offer meaningful pronouncements on the subject of comparative difficulty. All that I write here remains also subject to the caveats that I set down in the first - and a later - response to this thread.

Wow! You wrote that without mentioning Jonathan Powell; you sure do have a lot of self control Alistair.

—Ryan

[I Love Xenakis]

Length considered, the Symphonic Variations or Opus Archmagicum

Length not considered, the Solo Concerto

[mikey6]

EDIT: That's an interesting... umm... thing, could have sworn your name was MikeyG... I presume you are the same person though *shrugs*

no we are not the same person. this discussion already came up.

[ahinton]

Wow! You wrote that without mentioning Jonathan Powell; you sure do have a lot of self control Alistair.

—Ryan

Whilst absolutely no more "self control" was used in this than it was in actually mentioning the names that I did, would there nevertheless have been anything fundamentally wrong with mentioning him in this context, had the need arisen within the discussion of the actual subject matter? I see that you have mentioned him now in any case; whether that involves an abandonment of "self control" is not for me to conjecture...

I note that your response confines itself to a reference to a non-reference to a particular name, yet the point at issue here is the far more serious one of how - if at all - it may be possible to approach the question of "Sorabji's most difficult piece" - to which matter you contribute nothing at all here.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Length considered, the Symphonic Variations or Opus Archmagicum

Length not considered, the Solo Concerto

The various caveats notwithstanding, this is as near sensible an answer to this vexed question as we have had or are likely to get. The solo Concerto, which is about an hour in duration but contains no variation sets or fugues, is indeed a minefield of pitfalls for the pianist - as the pianist whose name I am apparently exercising "self control" in not naming would testify from personal experience (his recording of it is due out fairly soon now) - but this does not appear to have discouraged the said pianist from giving it two excellent performances so far.

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

I love you Alistair!

—Ryan

[I Love Xenakis]

Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell
Jonathan Powell


for you ryan <3



I figured you were being cranky cause you needed your JP fix.

[sevencircles]

I have been searching for a recording of the solo concerto. Who has recorded it and where can I find it?

Quite strange that Ogdon choose to record OC when he was a mental wreck.

Chances are that you feel like a wreck after recording it anyway but being an alcoholic and nervewreck before you start to learn it is not the best combination.

John Ogdon did for sure have  days when he was almost alone in his greatness, though and I consider him an underrated pianist actually.

[ahinton]

I have been searching for a recording of the solo concerto. Who has recorded it and where can I find it?

Quite strange that Ogdon choose to record OC when he was a mental wreck.

Chances are that you feel like a wreck after recording it anyway but being an alcoholic and nervewreck before you start to learn it is not the best combination.

John Ogdon did for sure have  days when he was almost alone in his greatness, though and I consider him an underrated pianist actually.

John Ogdon was not - repeat NOT - an alcoholic - for all that I realise that you do not say so specifically here...

Sorabji's solo concerto - named by him Concerto per suonare da me solo and dating from 1946 (i.e. roughly halfway through his creative career) - has been recorded for Altarus by Jonathan Powell (dear me - I've mentioned his name - now I'll be banned from this forum and from civilised society as we know it - ah, well - such is life...) and it should be released fairly soon now (although I do not have a precise release date).

Best,

Alistair

[JCarey]

Sorabji's solo concerto - named by him Concerto per suonare da me solo and dating from 1946 (i.e. roughly halfway through his creative career) - has been recorded for Altarus by Jonathan Powell (dear me - I've mentioned his name - now I'll be banned from this forum and from civilised society as we know it - ah, well - such is life...) and it should be released fairly soon now (although I do not have a precise release date).

I am really excited about that release. It's a wonderful piece!

Can we expect to see it released within the next few months?

[ahinton]

I am really excited about that release. It's a wonderful piece!

Can we expect to see it released within the next few months?

It is indeed a wonderful piece! I certainly hope that it will be released within this time-frame - and indeed think that it probably will be - but I desist from making any kind of specific promise about an actual release date since I do not know exactly when it will be - what I do know, however, is that it will be more than worth the wait!

Best,

Alistair

[superstition2]

John Ogdon was not - repeat NOT - an alcoholic - for all that I realise that you do not say so specifically here...

Maybe not, but his Scriabin sonatas suggest otherwise.

[ahinton]

Maybe not, but his Scriabin sonatas suggest otherwise.

Hew exactly could any particular public peformances - or recordings (and I think that it is the latter to which you refer here) - specifically "suggest" alcoholism on the part of the performer?

Best,

Alistair

[I Love Xenakis]

Maybe if you hear a lot of vomiting and the person falling over during the performances XD

[prometheus]

It is amazing how people can reason.

[ahinton]

Maybe if you hear a lot of vomiting and the person falling over during the performances XD

Very funny - and perhaps so, too - except, of course, that we are here considering the hypothetical as distinct from the real, so the originator's argument has clearly acquired not a shred more substance than it had when it was put forward, since it has no relevance whatsoever to the circumstances concerned...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It is amazing how people can reason.

Yes, indeed - isn't it just?! - especially if one can be of sufficient mental flexibilty to interpret such garbage as "reason"...

Best,

Alistair

[letters]

I think there should be a post called Who the hell is Sorabji, because i for one don't know.

[ahinton]

I think there should be a post called Who the hell is Sorabji, because i for one don't know.

I'm not sure that "hell" would be a necessary part of such a post, but I do know that it would not be difficult for you to find out who he is and what he has done; if you want to know more, you are welcome to send an email to us at
sorabji-archive@lineone.net and we can send you some information.

Best,

Alistair

[tompilk]

I think there should be a post called Who the hell is Sorabji, because i for one don't know.

He wrote insanely difficult music... some about 4 hours long and written on four staves... the infamous "opus clavicembalisticum"... reorded twice (completely) by Geoffrey Douglas Madge and John Ogdon.
I read somewhere that when Sorabji played it that he had a break after the first few movements or whatever they are called, then took a swig of whiskey and played the whole of the rest of it without breaks... people had to wrap him in towels because of his sweat chilling him... an immensly great piece of work...
On the other hand, people think that it is 4 hours of wasted time and that it is rubbish. I think that it is a great piece of work... that may be un-pleasing to listen to if you have a headache... but it is an amazing piece which i love and would promote and stick up for...
It's themes may take 10000's of notes to utter in so many different chords... but it is amazing...
Listen to it  is the only way to form an opinion... and everyone is entitled to one...
Talk to "ahinton", a member of this forum, or search for it to find out lots more... "ahinton" is a person who sells and promotes Sorabji stuff... i think at least...
Tom
As i typed this, ahinton has posted...!!! Anyway...

[douglasgould]

probably the version of candle in the wind that he plays with his bum cheeks. eltons at it again...

[beanman]

you say candle in the wind as if its easy but volodos' version scrapes the tendons from your bones. i struggled for weeks with that piece

[tompilk]

you say candle in the wind as if its easy but volodos' version scrapes the tendons from your bones. i struggled for weeks with that piece

Have you got mp3 or sheets? I havent heard about this one...
Tom

[musicsdarkangel]

What is Sorabji's most difficult piece?

—Ryan

probably his worst piece.

[Etude]

And which is that?

[musicsdarkangel]

don't know.

That's why I included "probably".

[ahinton]

don't know.

That's why I included "probably".

Within certain parameters, that's probably about as near an answer as this question is likely to get (other, perhaps, than the one "i_love_xenakis" gave earlier); in other words, it's an impossible question to answer unequivocally with incontrovertible authority.

Best,

Alistair

[beanman]

i found it on this site


https://www.nme.com/boards/showthread.htm?mode=hybrid&t=13965