Is Sorabji musically valid?

[superstition2]

I don't care how long some of his pieces are.

I don't care how difficult some of his pieces are.

I don't care how complicated some of his pieces are.

I don't care if he was an eccentric who lived in a hole and burned all his music to prevent dilettantes from playing it, rode a white horse at twilight, or required pianists to perform blindfolded standing on one leg.

I'd not heard of this composer until I came to this forum, and every topic about his music seems to rehash the same themes: complexity, difficulty, obscurity, eccentricity, length, etc.

So far, I've not heard much about the musical validity. Is there any emotion? Is there any relationship to other musical innovators, like Scriabin or Roslavets? In other words, is his music beautiful, sublime, pretty, or anything other than something to brag about but ultimately be bored by?

I don't spend my free time reading Ph.D dissertations in combinatorics, so maybe I'm not the right person to appreciate the endless "toughest, longest" piano piece topics.

[thalbergmad]

Alistair, John, are you there.

[ahinton]

I don't care how long some of his pieces are.

Nor do I - and nor should you.

I don't care how difficult some of his pieces are.

Nor do I - and nor should you.

I don't care how complicated some of his pieces are.

Nor do I - and nor should you.

I don't care if he was an eccentric who lived in a hole and burned all his music to prevent dilettantes from playing it, rode a white horse at twilight, or required pianists to perform blindfolded standing on one leg.

Nor, perhaps, would I, except, of course, that he never did any of those things referred to above (which no doubt you already know and they are therefore accordingly mere figures of speech)...

I'd not heard of this composer until I came to this forum, and every topic about his music seems to rehash the same themes: complexity, difficulty, obscurity, eccentricity, length, etc.

Not my fault in either particular (not that i am suggesting that you are suggesting that it is so)...

So far, I've not heard much about the musical validity. Is there any emotion?

Yes - plenty - but don't tkae my word or anyone else's for this - go find and go listend and go make up your own mind, uninfluenced by anything that you may have read previously.

I don't spend my free time reading Ph.D dissertations in combinatorics

Nor do I...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Alistair, John, are you there.

Well, as you will now have noticed, I am there - and I daresay that John either is or soon will be - but let's have other views, too...

In the end, the only person to convince anyone of the "validity" or any other quality of Sorabji's music is Sorabji.

Best,

Alistair

[superstition2]

Yes - plenty

Could you be more specific?

[ahinton]

Could you be more specific?

No - but only because this is by definition a most personal issue - personal, that is, to each individual listener, regardless of whether it is Sorabji, Palestrina, Tchaikovsky or Xenakis that is being listened to...

Best,

Alistair

[JCarey]

So far, I've not heard much about the musical validity. Is there any emotion?

Sorabji's music is some of the most emotional I've heard. It can be elegant, ferocious, soft, loud, powerful, humorous, terrifying, entertaining, fast, slow, simple, complex, angry, melancholy, serene, joyful... just like any other really great composer I know of.

Is there any relationship to other musical innovators, like Scriabin or Roslavets? In other words, is his music beautiful, sublime, pretty, or anything other than something to brag about but ultimately be bored by?

Yes.

I don't spend my free time reading Ph.D dissertations in combinatorics, so maybe I'm not the right person to appreciate the endless "toughest, longest" piano piece topics.

I find that the most beautiful bits of Sorabji's music are often belonging to one of the two extremes - the most complex sections, or the most simplistic. If the only thing Sorabji's music had to offer was difficulty, I wouldn't waste my time with it. I might have found the idea interesting momentarily - but I wouldn't bother listening to it. Sorabji's music is wonderful, but one must look beyond the difficulties to know this.

I imagine that I would appreciate Sorabji's music even more had I never been told how difficult it is.

Try listening to some of it. I think you'll like it!

- John

[ryguillian]

Sorabji’s music is not listened to because it's enjoyable or pretty or moving or powerful; it's something that is caught, like a virus, and which annihilates its host. The host will ask himself: what is this; is the beauty in Sorabji’s music an accident (the music is so complex that there are bound to be good / beautiful / powerful movements by sheer chance) or is it deliberate;—after fifty listens—is the beauty in the music a product of familiarity?

These questions have no answer; we all share John Ogdon's fate.

—Ryan

[JCarey]

Sorabji’s music is not listened to because it's enjoyable or pretty or moving or powerful; it's something that is caught, like a virus, and which annihilates its host. The host will ask himself: what is this; is the beauty in Sorabji’s music an accident (the music is so complex that there are bound to be good / beautiful / powerful movements by sheer chance) or is it deliberate;—after fifty listens—is the beauty in the music a product of familiarity?

These questions have no answer; we all share John Ogdon's fate.

—Ryan

You aren't helping.

[panic]

Superstition, let me ask you to picture a battle scene. Armies going at it, people getting slaughtered everywhere. How would, say, Beethoven and Bruckner picture it? Music that sounds striving and heroic (not necessarily in major, but as if aching to get there). And the scene ends either in clear triumphant major or in clear defeated minor. Now, is what happens in a battle really so black and white? No. It's fricking confusing. You've got people dying on both sides every second and you don't know which way the tide is turning. And at the end, even if you're triumphant, you will still probably have to mourn the loss of many of your men. So is it really appropriate to depict the battle using heroic music as people on both sides are getting slaughtered? No. And is it really humane to depict the end of the battle with sheer triumph? No.
     Instances like this hypothetical one are where Sorabji's music becomes much more realistic than almost anyone else's. If you listen to almost any Sorabji you will feel a sense of almost desperate striving in parts of the music, as if the protagonist were struggling to rid himself of some yoke. But is it heroic? No. It's confusing, just like real life. And is there necessarily some satisfying conclusion that ties up all the loose threads and removes all doubts? No, but that's what real life is like. Sorabji's music is realistic where Bruckner, Beethoven, Mahler, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Alkan and others are poetic.
     Have you ever come out of a math test or something, superstition, in which you think you did all right but you know you missed a few things, or you're just not sure how you did at all? Most of the great Classical and Romantic composers would fall flat on their faces trying to depict this everyday situation because their world is one of major and minor, good and bad. But Sorabji might ace it because his music is more confusing, more conflicting, less satisfying, and in that sense more realistic.

The ironic thing is that some of Sorabji's music qualifies as the most cosmic-sounding writing I have ever heard (for example, the Adagio from OC). But the fact that he was able to do both astronomical and realistic without ever being cheesy, or black and white, is testament to how good of a composer he was.

[pita bread]

Beautifully put.

[JCarey]

Superstition, let me ask you to picture a battle scene. Armies going at it, people getting slaughtered everywhere. How would, say, Beethoven and Bruckner picture it? Music that sounds striving and heroic (not necessarily in major, but as if aching to get there). And the scene ends either in clear triumphant major or in clear defeated minor. Now, is what happens in a battle really so black and white? No. It's fricking confusing. You've got people dying on both sides every second and you don't know which way the tide is turning. And at the end, even if you're triumphant, you will still probably have to mourn the loss of many of your men. So is it really appropriate to depict the battle using heroic music as people on both sides are getting slaughtered? No. And is it really humane to depict the end of the battle with sheer triumph? No.
     Instances like this hypothetical one are where Sorabji's music becomes much more realistic than almost anyone else's. If you listen to almost any Sorabji you will feel a sense of almost desperate striving in parts of the music, as if the protagonist were struggling to rid himself of some yoke. But is it heroic? No. It's confusing, just like real life. And is there necessarily some satisfying conclusion that ties up all the loose threads and removes all doubts? No, but that's what real life is like. Sorabji's music is realistic where Bruckner, Beethoven, Mahler, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Alkan and others are poetic.

A while back, I started a topic about how I had sightread through most of the OC to the best of my abilities. The way I felt after the last 2 pages of the Coda Stretta is exactly how you described, but I never thought to put it into those words. Excellent, excellent post.

I would also like to add that I love the exotic flavor to many of Sorabji's works, like the nocturnes or many of the songs for soprano.

[pies]

The more discussion there is about Sorabji, the more he and his music annoys me.  All of these debates about him have led me to conclude that most of his fans are probably uber music elitists.
Can someone please erase Sorabji from music and history?  Really, you're all just beating the dead horse with all of these threads about him.

[pita bread]

Can someone please erase Sorabji from music and history?  Really, you're all just beating the dead horse with all of these threads about him.

Can someone please erase you?

[panic]

What non-elitist subject would you have us discuss? Justin Timberlake?

[pies]

What non-elitist subject would you have us discuss? Justin Timberlake?

How about stop all discussion?

[ahinton]

The more discussion there is about Sorabji, the more he and his music annoys me.  All of these debates about him have led me to conclude that most of his fans are probably uber music elitists.
Can someone please erase Sorabji from music and history?  Really, you're all just beating the dead horse with all of these threads about him.

You do yourself no favours here. You imply that your response to any music (not necessarily Sorabji's, although it is his to which you refer here) is governed by the sheer amount of discussion of its composer. This is hardly the correct way to develop a genuine response to any music. As John Carey put it, had he heard nothing previously about the difficulties or complexities of Sorabji's music, he might warm to it even more; frankly, I take leave to doubt that, given the intelligence of his responses, but I do see his point - or at least his reason for making it in this context. At the risk of sounding dogmatic, one's responses to any music should be influenced only by the music itself (and, of course, its performance), not by what others may or may not have said about it beforehand.

If someone wants to start a thread on this forum and thereby annoys every subsequent respondent, then it might more reasonably be alleged that the thread subject is being over-exposed on said forum. When, as in this case, however, someone starts a Sorabji thread and various people subsequently go to some lengths to pitch in with their considered thoughts, that is clearly quite a different matter; this is why, in the present context, I chose to desist from responding in any detail until after others had expressed themselves.

This thread has clearly generated quite an amount of considered thought from a number of sources in a relatively short space of time; I may not agree literally 100% with absolutely all of it, but it clearly demonstrates that a number of people have been profoundly affected by this music and have now expressed themselves on that subject. If that fact "annoys" you, then I must remind you that you are under no obligation either to read what the contributors have written or indeed to listen to Sorabji's music in the first place. There is no law that dictates that you should do either; likewise, there is none that supports your alleged desire for anyone's erasure "from music and history". The literal meaning of such erasure is in any case unclear in the practical terms of how Sorabji could so be "erased", as it would be impossible to unperform, unrecord, unbroadcast and, ultimately, uncompose his music.

As to the writer's reference to "élitism" - well, of course Sorabji's music falls into that category but, as I have had cause to state previously, "élitism" does not have to be used - as you use it - as a pejorative. Once could just as easily ascribe "élitism" to any of the other composers so far referred to in this thread.

To return (thankfully) to Sorabji's music itself - yes, it does indeed embrace a wealth of human emotion and, by this fact alone, its "validity" to sensitive and intelligent listeners is considerable. I have little doubt that more enlightening thoughts will shortly emerge from others on this topic. While they do so, you might be best advised to go away and find an eraser - or just to go away...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

How about stop all discussion?

ALL discussion? You mean "why not close down this and other fora?", (for there would seem to be little purpose in the continued existence of discussion groups were all discussion to be stopped). I guess you'd better address that plaint to each of the various forum owners.

Now that you appear to have attempted to turn this thread into
"Is any Discussion valid"
I repeat to you the latter suggestion from my previous post...

Best,

Alistair

[panic]

Only on Piano Forum can you get taken out to the woodshed by the keeper of the Sorabji Archive...

[pies]

You imply that your response to any music (not necessarily Sorabji's, although it is his to which you refer here) is governed by the sheer amount of discussion of its composer. This is hardly the correct way to develop a genuine response to any music.

It is not implied that this is my response to all music. I am simply stating that the discussion about Sorabji has made me hate his music more. I hated it from the start when I first heard a section of the OC. The fact that people respect this trash is what has caused the increase of annoyance/hatred.  I wouldn't call that a 'governing' of my response to music. More of a response to a response to music.

I'm too sleepy to pick apart the rest of your post. Maybe I'll try tomorrow.

[pita bread]

It is not implied that this is my response to all music. I am simply stating that the discussion about Sorabji has made me hate his music more. I hated it from the start when I first heard a section of the OC. The fact that people respect this trash is what has caused the increase of annoyance/hatred.  I wouldn't call that a 'governing' of my response to music. More of a response to a response to music.

You want to start backing up your opinion?

You call us Sorabji fans elitists, yet we don't prowl around calling Mozart or Chopin trash.

[maul]

The fact that people respect this trash is what has caused the increase of annoyance/hatred

More like the big cryfest that follows after someone expresses their dislike towards it. I hate Sorabji's music. Now JCarey's going to respond saying that I just don't understand it, ahinton is going to type a drawn out robotic essay, and pita breads going to approve of it. yay

[panic]

No, I mean, it's easy for a person who's not that gung-ho about Sorabji for the first place to get a hold of OC and click on the shortest tracks as samples, which are also some of the most brutal segments, and decide "Oh, this is ugly!" and never listen to any other Sorabji because they don't think it'll be any different. You do have to search for what's really good in Sorabji. I'm still new to him - I haven't even cracked 15% of the solo concerto, but nothing that I've heard has been hard on the ears. The second movement of the Fourth Sonata also seemed wonderful when I listened to it. And enclosed at the way end of the Passacaglia from OC is one of the most profound and beautiful passages I've ever heard. The best Sorabji that I've heard is like an epic version of late Scriabin - mystical, not quite tonal, but still high-quality.

[pita bread]

More like the big cryfest that follows after someone expresses their dislike towards it. I hate Sorabji's music. Now JCarey's going to respond saying that I just don't understand it, ahinton is going to type a drawn out robotic essay, and pita breads going to approve of it. yay

You ever witness one of those cry/pregnant dog-fests they have after someone expresses dislike towards Mozart or Chopin? I think we're rather civilized compared to them.

[arensky]

I was not familiar with Sorabj's music before I found this forum. I had heard of it, and what I had heard made it sound intimidating; 6 hour long piano pieces by a weird Persian/English misanthropic composer who was heir to a vast fortune. I had been intrigued by Sorabji since I first heard of him about 4 years ago. After linking to files of his music, mostly "OC" ("Orange County  ) I wondered what the fuss was about, on both sides. Sorabji's music is not hard to listen to, although I personally prefer shorter forms, outside of opera. What I do not understand is all the animosity. I wonder why the detractors react so violently; if it is such trash it will remain on the sidelines of music, appreciated only by a few academics. And the Sorabjites (excepting ahinton, who holds himself above the literary brawl) are awfully touchy about their man. If the music is good, it will stand the test of time and be appreciated as the monumental art that you believe it is. History shows that it takes awhile for "new" music to be understood and appreciated by a wide audience; it's true of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven (their later works) Debussy and countless other composers, visual artists writers and playwrights. Hell Beethoven's late Sonatas (opp. 101 through 111 ) were hardly performed with any regularity before the 1920's. It may take time. And you must realize that we live in the age of the short attention span. It may be a difficult fight....

But to answer the original question, of course it's musically valid. Just because you don't like something does not negate it's validity. I read a lot of that on this forum, and it bothers me, whether it's about Mozart, Bach, Debussy Sorabji or anyone. There is a composer much disussed here who I think is a complete waste of time, have I written a thread bashing his work? No. For those of you who enjoy it, that's great; take my share, enjoy! I do not understand why there is so much vituperative **** that semingly has to exist on this forum. Our time would be better spent discussing music, not fighting over it. Perhaps we should respect others when they have a different opinion.

Oh and where can I get a copy of the "Two Pieces", the "In a Hothouse" and it's companion? They could be nice addition to my repertoire...

[ahinton]

Only on Piano Forum can you get taken out to the woodshed by the keeper of the Sorabji Archive...

Are you quite sure about that?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It is not implied that this is my response to all music. I am simply stating that the discussion about Sorabji has made me hate his music more. I hated it from the start when I first heard a section of the OC. The fact that people respect this trash is what has caused the increase of annoyance/hatred.  I wouldn't call that a 'governing' of my response to music. More of a response to a response to music.

I'm too sleepy to pick apart the rest of your post. Maybe I'll try tomorrow.

That's fair enough, as far as it goes. It remains, however, a pity if one's reactions to any music are affected by other people's thoughts on it rather than wholly dependent upon one's own thoughts.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

More like the big cryfest that follows after someone expresses their dislike towards it. I hate Sorabji's music. Now JCarey's going to respond saying that I just don't understand it, ahinton is going to type a drawn out robotic essay, and pita breads going to approve of it. yay

I cannot speak for the others; instead I would say this.

It's up to each idividual to make up his/her own mind about it, based upon his/her own responses rather than through leaning upon those of others.

I'd hardly call the expressions of positive opinion that have been generated in this thread a "cryfest".

The use of the word "trash" in the present context is, however, gratuitous rather than scientifically sound; clearly, as such, it has provoked disagreement.

If the above is "drawn out", that's just too bad.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Oh and where can I get a copy of the "Two Pieces", the "In a Hothouse" and it's companion? They could be nice addition to my repertoire...

Thank you for your thoughts in your post.

To obtain any of Sorabji's scores, simply send an email to
sorabji-archive@lineone.net
and we will email you a catalogue by return.

Best,

Alistair

[leahcim]

How about stop all discussion?

Try listening to the vfft-vfft of a printer and the kerching of a till.

It must add something to the experience

[prometheus]

So far, I've not heard much about the musical validity. Is there any emotion?

What do the two have to do with each other? Musical validity? What do you mean with this?

Is there any relationship to other musical innovators, like Scriabin or Roslavets?

Sure, the harmonies are relatively close when compared to late Scriabin. Not many composers tried to go beyond what Scriabin did. Do note that many people hate late Scriabin also.

In other words, is his music beautiful, sublime, pretty, or anything other than something to brag about but ultimately be bored by?

Aren't simple things like beauty and prettyness very boring? The music was created simply because Sorabji felt it had to be created.

The point of this isn't that Sorabji isn't simply beautiful and pretty, but what does it matter? Does only prettyness validate music? What about other arts? What about all those dramatic novels that end in a climax of drama, terrible bad endings. Isn't that powerful? Isn't that much more profound? Just compare it to the perfect ending movies that are often based on those books. Those endings are pretty, but is it an improvement? Let alone a sole validator?

[ahinton]

What do the two have to do with each other? Musical validity? What do you mean with this?
 

Sure, the harmonies are relatively close when compared to late Scriabin. Not many composers tried to go beyond what Scriabin did. Do note that many people hate late Scriabin also.

Aren't simple things like beauty and prettyness very boring? The music was created simply because Sorabji felt it had to be created.

The point of this isn't that Sorabji isn't simply beautiful and pretty, but what does it matter? Does only prettyness validate music? What about other arts? What about all those dramatic novels that end in a climax of drama, terrible bad endings. Isn't that powerful? Isn't that much more profound? Just compare it to the perfect ending movies that are often based on those books. Those endings are pretty, but is it an improvement? Let alone a sole validator?

Well said!

Indeed, it is perhaps somewhat surprising that, so far in this thread, so little has been done to question what, if anything, may be meant by "validity" in this context.

As to "relationships" between Sorabji and other musical "innovators", proper understanding of this would surely have to be seen in conjunction with the entire panoply of influences upon his work and, whereas those of Skryabin and (to a lesser extent) Roslavetz can indeed be said to figure in a few of the early works, that of Busoni looms considerably larger from the mid-1920s onwards. Alkan, Liszt and Bach were other vital inspirations to him.

Best,

Alistair

[stormx]

Disclaimer: i have not listened to any Sorabji music, so i will no judge it 

But i have read many posts here about him, and surfed a little on the net on sites referred to him (like the Sorabji Archive, directed by our usual contributor Mr. A. Hinton).

Recently, i have finished reading a 4 volumes Music History, that is pretty complete. Every period of music history is treated by a different author. The collection is directed by someone called Stevens, and the fourth volume is dedicated to XX century music. This last volume is written by Tomas Marco.

I was avid to see what was written there about Sorabji...
Guess what?
He is not mentionned at all...hundred of modern composers are cited, many of them pretty obscure and unknown (up to 1978 aprox., when the book was released). But not a single mention of Sorabji !!

My point is not to discredit his music (see disclaimer  )...
But the fact that in a pretty complete Music History he is not even mentionned makes me think that his contribution to music is not as important as it seems when you read this forum.

By the way, i would like to listen to some of his music, but i do not know where to find it.
Is he highly atonal? If so, then i guess he will not be my taste 


 

[Etude]

It is not implied that this is my response to all music. I am simply stating that the discussion about Sorabji has made me hate his music more. I hated it from the start when I first heard a section of the OC. The fact that people respect this trash is what has caused the increase of annoyance/hatred. I wouldn't call that a 'governing' of my response to music. More of a response to a response to music.

I'm too sleepy to pick apart the rest of your post. Maybe I'll try tomorrow.

Don't you think it's quite difficult to judge a composer after hearing a section of one work (not to mention a poorly/pathetically recorded work)? 

Funny how these threads always attract those who hate these discussions. 

[Etude]

By the way, i would like to listen to some of his music, but i do not know where to find it.

Amazon.com has most of his recorded works, but my advise is stay well clear of the recordings of OC (particularly the Madge), at least until you're familiar with his other music. 

Is he highly atonal? If so, then i guess he will not be my taste

His music has been described as being inbetween tonality and atonality.  There are a lot of tonal chords in the OC for example, but it's the use of the tonal chords that seperates it from complete tonality.  Look at this section of the second movement of the OC (sorry about the quality):

[ahinton]

i would like to listen to some of his music, but i do not know where to find it.

If you write to us at
sorabji-archive@lineone.net
we will email you our brochure by return; this includes a complete Sorabji discography.

Best,

Alistair

[JCarey]

The more discussion there is about Sorabji, the more he and his music annoys me.  All of these debates about him have led me to conclude that most of his fans are probably uber music elitists.

Honestly... I don't believe any of us are elitists, at least if I understand your definition correctly. Is it ever wrong, under any circumstances, to enjoy the music of a certain composer? How does that make anyone "elitist"? The SAME THING could be said by people who don't like classical music about those who do. Also, it appears to me that you don't understand that you are under NO obligation to read topics about Sorabji. Here's a suggestion: if you see the name "Sorabji" in the title of a thread, save yourself the aggravation and don't view it.

Can someone please erase Sorabji from music and history?  Really, you're all just beating the dead horse with all of these threads about him.

Comments like yours indicate that you have no consideration for those who enjoy Sorabji's music and who might be offended by your flippant remarks. If you think that there have been too many topics about Sorabji on this forum, have you bothered to check how many threads about Chopin and Liszt there are? This forum is about discussing music, is it not? Why should it matter to you what music people choose to discuss here? It appears to me that you are the elitist here.

More like the big cryfest that follows after someone expresses their dislike towards it. I hate Sorabji's music. Now JCarey's going to respond saying that I just don't understand it, ahinton is going to type a drawn out robotic essay, and pita breads going to approve of it. yay

I assume (key word: assume) that you have heard enough of it to make an educated opinion about it. Don't assume that I'm going to respond a certain way. If you don't like it, you don't like it, it's as simple as that.

Recently, i have finished reading a 4 volumes Music History, that is pretty complete. Every period of music history is treated by a different author. The collection is directed by someone called Stevens, and the fourth volume is dedicated to XX century music. This last volume is written by Tomas Marco.

I was avid to see what was written there about Sorabji...
Guess what?
He is not mentionned at all...hundred of modern composers are cited, many of them pretty obscure and unknown (up to 1978 aprox., when the book was released). But not a single mention of Sorabji !!

Don't forget about Sorabji's "ban." If people had been performing his works more often during his lifetime, he probably would be considered much more well-known than he is now.

[I Love Xenakis]

omg o.O

Who said Sorabji is trash?  *forms angry mob with pitchforks and torches*


Just as an example of a piece that you can easily find online for reference, the Sorabji Sonata No. 1 is emotional enough to rival anything by Chopin, Liszt or Rachmaninov.



That's all I feel like saying.

[ahinton]

Who said Sorabji is trash?

"pies" did (see #19 in this thread).

Just as an example of a piece that you can easily find online for reference, the Sorabji Sonata No. 1 is emotional enough to rival anything by Chopin, Liszt or Rachmaninov.

Indeed it is! - at least to anyone who has any sense of what human emotions actually are (even if some do not respond to it as others do). And it is but an early work of Sorabji, conceived and written at a time when his ability to express himself had still to mature (and, lest I be deliberately misunderstood here by anyone with an avowed agenda to make of something what it is not, I do not seek to undermine that work in any way by so saying).

That's all I feel like saying.

And frankly, in view of some of what has been written in this thread, I cannot say that I blame you for your reticence!

Once again, John Carey makes many sensible points and one must be grateful for his obviously genuine endeavours to restore some of the less edifying parts of this thread to those things that actually matter. For thje record, I also reiterate his entirely correct contention that no one is being forced to listen to, or read about, Sorabji against his/her will...

Best,

Alistair

[Ruro]

 That's an interesting thing you could twist; people say they hate Sorabji's music, our come back is: "There is no good recording [of the OC]". Not sure how we can say we truely like it if we have merely heard an improvised OC, and a very... diverse interpretation from Odgon.

 At any rate, I can atleast wearily that I like some of his compositions. His "Three Pastiches" are pretty nice Transcriptions, the Piano Sonata... well, I don't think I have heard it enough yet, but the times I have listened it was all the way through (so atleast bareable!). And the OC... well, the parts I do like I think are actually played reasonably well, the Passacaglia get's a bit to randomly chord filled for my taste at the end, which is probably innacurate.

 So musically valid in my opinion? Yeah! If I'm glad a piece has been composed, then it's valid in my book, and I'm glad most of the OC was made, the stuff I wouldn't bother about "keeping" is the (we can all agree on) trash a certain performer sputtered out.

 Enjoying this thread by the way! I love Sorabji threads, since because he is so... infamous(?), you sorta have a small bond going on, lol, and it just makes things so... well... hilarious ^_^

[ahinton]

That's an interesting thing you could twist; people say they hate Sorabji's music, our come back is: "There is no good recording [of the OC]". Not sure how we can say we truely like it if we have merely heard an improvised OC, and a very... diverse interpretation from Odgon.

 At any rate, I can atleast wearily that I like some of his compositions. His "Three Pastiches" are pretty nice Transcriptions, the Piano Sonata... well, I don't think I have heard it enough yet, but the times I have listened it was all the way through (so atleast bareable!). And the OC... well, the parts I do like I think are actually played reasonably well, the Passacaglia get's a bit to randomly chord filled for my taste at the end, which is probably innacurate.

 So musically valid in my opinion? Yeah! If I'm glad a piece has been composed, then it's valid in my book, and I'm glad most of the OC was made, the stuff I wouldn't bother about "keeping" is the (we can all agree on) trash a certain performer sputtered out.

 Enjoying this thread by the way! I love Sorabji threads, since because he is so... infamous(?), you sorta have a small bond going on, lol, and it just makes things so... well... hilarious ^_^

For all that I appreciate some of your comments here, I just do wish that people intent on trying to provide valuable opinion on the subject of Sorabji's known music would first listen to each and every Sorabji work that is available on CD (there are now quite a few - certainly more than enough to warrant the discouragement of some determined individuals from their continued indulgement in certain kinds of commentary about the recorded performaces of OC) before coming up with unduly selective statements.

To start with, for example, Sorabji's music is not all about monstrous complexity, vast length, extremes of technical difficulty for performers. Far too much commentary seems to me to be deliberately couched in terms that seek to purvey Sorabji as some kind of maverick first and foremost, rather than as a composer with a powerful message to convey. If this balance can be duly and sensibly redressed, then a greater degree of future commentary is likely to be more instructive, informative, interesting and helpful both to those familiar with some of his work and those who are not.

Bdest,

Alistair

[stormx]

Don't forget about Sorabji's "ban." If people had been performing his works more often during his lifetime, he probably would be considered much more well-known than he is now.

Now, for the love of God, will those of you who consider Sorabji's music "trash" kindly stop posting in this thread and let us Sorabjians discuss his music in peace?

- John

John, do not include me among those who consider it trash. I simply have no opinion, because i did not listen to it. I was simply stating a fact (that Sorabji was completely ignored in a particular book dealing with XX century classical music).

By the way, i have listened to some of your own pieces in your website, and i liked them.

 

[minor9th]

I find it interesting that the original poster has replied only once...could he just be sitting back and laughing at the furor he has caused?

[JCarey]

John, do not include me among those who consider it trash. I simply have no opinion, because i did not listen to it. I was simply stating a fact (that Sorabji was completely ignored in a particular book dealing with XX century classical music).

By the way, i have listened to some of your own pieces in your website, and i liked them.

 

Oh, I didn't mean it like that! I'm sorry if it appeared that way. No, I was just reminding you about the ban that he placed on all performances of his works, which obviously has a very large effect on Sorabji's reputation.

Thank you for your comment on my music, by the way. I'm glad you like my compositions.

- John

[ryguillian]

For putting my fear into words, I thank—especially Ali. H.—the above writers.

—Ry. H.

[medtnerian]

I'm positive Mr. Sorabji was a very wise and intelligent man. He wrote music that's scary and fascinating, emotional and yet complex. At least, that's what some people think. But as the composer's wisdom and intelligence reflects in his music, I think it does even more so in his decision to forbid his music to ever be performed. Mr. Sorabji had forseen all the endless and useless discussing. Only few people know his music, and look at how many arguments it has caused on this message board already; imagine if the whole world knew his music.

Both fortunately and unfortunately, Mr. Sorabji allowed a couple of pianists to perform his works again at the end of his life. Fortunately because now the people that understand what he was trying to accomplish can now enjoy some of his work, and unfortunately because of all of the bickering it causes, among everyone. It makes one wonder whether or not it's actually a selfish thing to listen to or to perform Sorabji's music.

I like Sorabji's music, and I think it definately is musically valid in a lot of his works that I heard, but it's not worth all the blablabla around it. I'd say Mr. Sorabji is a good composer, definately above average, on all accounts (musicality, complexity, innovativity, emotion), but no more than that. It's worth a few listens occationally, not a lifetime (unless you run the Sorabji Archives like Mr. Hinton or something similar, which is necessary to keep the music from disappearing into obscurity)....

Oh well, nevermind, carry on with all this, it tends to be amusing at times. I feel like I'm just making it worse as it is.

[ryguillian]

“Being deep and appearing deep.—Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity. For the crowd considers anything deep if only it cannot see to the bottom: the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water.”

—Frederik Nietzsche


Not only does the above apply to Ali-stare, but also to K.S.S. himself. You can all pride yourselves in being members of the crowd.

—Ryan

[ahinton]

I'm positive Mr. Sorabji was a very wise and intelligent man. He wrote music that's scary and fascinating, emotional and yet complex. At least, that's what some people think. But as the composer's wisdom and intelligence reflects in his music, I think it does even more so in his decision to forbid his music to ever be performed. Mr. Sorabji had forseen all the endless and useless discussing. Only few people know his music, and look at how many arguments it has caused on this message board already; imagine if the whole world knew his music.

Both fortunately and unfortunately, Mr. Sorabji allowed a couple of pianists to perform his works again at the end of his life. Fortunately because now the people that understand what he was trying to accomplish can now enjoy some of his work, and unfortunately because of all of the bickering it causes, among everyone. It makes one wonder whether or not it's actually a selfish thing to listen to or to perform Sorabji's music.

I like Sorabji's music, and I think it definately is musically valid in a lot of his works that I heard, but it's not worth all the blablabla around it. I'd say Mr. Sorabji is a good composer, definately above average, on all accounts (musicality, complexity, innovativity, emotion), but no more than that. It's worth a few listens occationally, not a lifetime (unless you run the Sorabji Archives like Mr. Hinton or something similar, which is necessary to keep the music from disappearing into obscurity)....

Oh well, nevermind, carry on with all this, it tends to be amusing at times. I feel like I'm just making it worse as it is.

Do not undermine yourself here! The "blablabla" around it is not of your making, nor of mine, for of many of those who warm to his music nor, most especially, of Sorabji himself, who would, could and did (in my personal experience) talk a great deal (when it suited him to do so) about all manner of things EXCEPT his music. Trying to engage him in discussion of that was worse than trying to get blood out of a stone.

The question of the so-called "ban" has been raised now a couple or more times, so I think that it behoves me to try to ensure that it is properly understood; Sorabji never actually "banned" public performances of his music - what he did was to make it clear to any contenders that he did not want his music performed in public without his prior consent. This is, in principle, a very different notion to an outright ban without exception, even though the end result was not at all dissimilar thereto. Sorabji merely wanted to protect his work from misinterpretation and misunderstanding. In the end, he could no more guarantee doing this with 100% success than could anyone else. Fortunately, the proportion of inadequate performances of his work has been small. Sorabji was utterly consumed by writing his work. I actually saw him writing only once in my life. This was in the late 1970s and he was at the time working on "Il Grido del Gallino d'Oro" (a set of variations and a fugue on a theme from Rimsky-Korsakov's "Le Coq d'Or"), which Jonathan Powell premièred from Alexander Abercrombie's new typeset edition in last year's Radio France Montpellier Festival; the sheer speed at which the pen raced across the page was mind-boggling and he certainly had neither consciousness or care that he happened to have a kind of compositional audience at that point.

Sorabji did indeed in principle have little or no time for endless discussion of his work (not that he ever really encountered much of this in practice); for him, all that mattered was how individuals might respond, if at all, to his work and he, for one, did not want to seek to influence such response by spouting forth about his work beforehand.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

“Being deep and appearing deep.—Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity. For the crowd considers anything deep if only it cannot see to the bottom: the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water.”

—Frederik Nietzsche


Not only does the above apply to Ali-stare, but also to K.S.S. himself. You can all pride yourselves in being members of the crowd.

—Ryan

If you like - and if you say so - but what is it that prompts you to think for one moment that Sorabji was consciously writing for, or seeking to address, a "crowd" of any kind? You quote Nietzsche; mindful of what I have just written, I will respond by quoting not Sorabji but Delius (writing in the early 1920s):

"This is an age of anarchy in art;
There is no authority, no standard,
no sense of proportion.
Anybody can do anything
and call it “art”
in the certain expectation
of making a crowd of idiots
stand and stare at him
in gaping astonishment and admiration.
Great men must be denied"

I fear that your attempt at some kind of élitist barb has fallen flat here, for anyone who would seek to believe him/herself to be a part of the "Sorabji crowd" is deluding him/herself into the assumption that any such "crowd" could possibly exist. Sorabji's music, like anyone else's, has to stand on its own two feet and make its impact on whomsoever may respond to it in whatever way. The côterie / clique kind of argument therefore holds no water at all.

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

Actually, Ali, I was referring to a crowd you should be quite familiar with: the Piano Forum crowd; the crowd of boys you try to impress with your stilted gabble—the equivalent of Sorabji’s music in writing.
 
—Ryan