Favorite Sorabji Piano Piece

[djealnla]

His website only has a mailing list form, no contact info.

In that case I'd just send him a message to his OA site email.

[ahinton]

Well, as I pointed out elsewhere, Sorabji did think so.

He is on record as having thought this not long after composing it and, at that time, it most certainly was the summit of his achievement; some 55 years and about the same number of works later, he considered that two of his finest piano pieces of all were Gulistan and Sequentia Cyclica.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

He is on record as having thought this not long after composing it and, at that time, it most certainly was the summit of his achievement; some 55 years and about the same number of works later, he considered that two of his finest piano pieces of all were Gulistan and Sequentia Cyclica.

Best,

Alistair

I read that in the book "The Company I've Kept"; he said his best piano pieces are Piano Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2, OC and Sequentia Cyclica.

Did you mean to say "two of his finest piano pieces of all" or "his two finest piano pieces of all" (assuming that makes some difference)? I know Gulistan is held in a very high regard among "Sorabjians", but personally I can't help but hate it.  

[ahinton]

I read that in the book "The Company I've Kept"; he said his best piano pieces are Piano Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2, OC and Sequentia Cyclica.

Fine and valuable as that book is in some ways - and analogous as is its chapter on Sorabji to that on Brahms in Schönberg's Style and Idea (at least in the sense of comparative size and pride of place), it is chock full of misprints and miscalculations and, in any case, KSS was never the best interview subject; again bear in mind its date when considering Sorabji's apparent view of his piano works...

Did you mean to say "two of his finest piano pieces of all" or "his two finest piano pieces of all" (assuming that makes some difference)? I know Gulistan is held in a very high regard among "Sorabjians", but personally I can't help but hate it. 

The latter, if one is being pedantic - and if Gulistan affects you in the way that you say it does, then so be it, I suppose - your view/value judgement simply does not accord to the composer's own.

Best,

Alistair

[minor9th]

In that case I'd just send him a message to his OA site email.

That's what I wanted to do, but unless it's craftily hidden (or I'm blind!), I don't see one...just the e-mail list request.

[djealnla]

Deleted

[minor9th]

OK, thank you! I got a response this morning:

"Thanks for your note. With a little luck I'll be announcing further plans/release dates for Opus Archimagicum in a few weeks."

[djealnla]

Returning to the topic of the topic, I'd say (choosing between those pieces I actually know) a hard choice between Sequentia Cyclica and Piano Symphony 4.

W00t? There actually is a noncommercial recording of SC somewhere out there? I hope Powell won't wish to play the piece 10 times in public before recording it, as is the case with OC! 

[djealnla]

Deleted

[john11inc]

Alistair, what's the deal on the last Nocturne?  The one he actually wrote for you?  As head of the Sorabji Archive, can't you pressure these pianists to play it?  Hold his scores ransom until someone agrees to play your piece, or at least typeset it

But seriously, what's the piece like?  Any good?

[gep]

Alistair, what's the deal on the last Nocturne?  The one he actually wrote for you?  As head of the Sorabji Archive, can't you pressure these pianists to play it?  Hold his scores ransom until someone agrees to play your piece, or at least typeset it

But seriously, what's the piece like?  Any good?

Indeed one of the works I would really like to hear. Ditto Toccata's 2 and 4. And the Cock d'Or Variations; hopefully Jonathan Powell will make a commercial recording thereof!

W00t? There actually is a noncommercial recording of SC somewhere out there?

No. Sorry...

gep

[djealnla]

Alistair, what's the deal on the last Nocturne?  The one he actually wrote for you?  As head of the Sorabji Archive, can't you pressure these pianists to play it?  Hold his scores ransom until someone agrees to play your piece, or at least typeset it

But seriously, what's the piece like?  Any good?

I also want to ask that last question, but a bit more in depth:

1) With which of Sorabji's so far recorded Nocturnes does it share most characteristics?
2) Does it really sound "symphonic"? The texture of Gulistan, for example, is very dense and full of counterpoint, so I can't imagine what a two-hour Gulistan with and additional orchestra might sound like (let alone how it might tax its performer). 

[ahinton]

Alistair, what's the deal on the last Nocturne?  The one he actually wrote for you?  As head of the Sorabji Archive, can't you pressure these pianists to play it?  Hold his scores ransom until someone agrees to play your piece, or at least typeset it

But seriously, what's the piece like?  Any good?

It's very different from all his other nocturnal pieces - on a considerably larger scale than all the other, yet far leaner in texture and it also has its relatively explosive moments which are absent from all the others. It's very much a product of his "final period", which really is a "final period" to the extent that Sorabji had resolved to give up composition in 1967 and had broken his decision only to write Concertino non grosso (whose première is currently scheduled for an as yet to be decided date this spring in Birmingham - England, by the way, not Alabama!), following which he remained silent until 1972. Typesetting is in progress but the person doing it is also working on the piano symphonies, so it may be quite some time before it emerges and only then is it likely that a pianist might take it up. I can only encourage them to do so - I can't force them! I'm sure that it and the last of the piano symphonies will be performed eventually.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I'm sure that it and the last of the piano symphonies will be performed eventually.

Why did you mention this piece? Merely because of the dedication? Just curious. 

Best,

djealnla

[forgottenbooks]

Transcendental Etude No. 7, although it's not in your list.

[ahinton]

Why did you mention this piece? Merely because of the dedication? Just curious. 

If by "this piece" you mean the Symphonic Nocturne, I "mentioned" it because I was replying to john11inch's post about it!

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

If by "this piece" you mean the Symphonic Nocturne, I "mentioned" it because I was replying to john11inch's post about it!

Best,

Alistair

Actually, I meant the other piece you mentioned.

[ahinton]

Actually, I meant the other piece you mentioned.

...i.e. the Sixth Piano Symphony; I mentioned that because john11inch had referred to "your piece" in the context of the Symphonic Nocturne and, by "your", he clearly meant "dedicated to me and so yes, my reference to the Sixth Piano Symphony was in that context too (the Fifth Piano Symphony, also dedicated to me, having already been edited, typeset and performed).

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

the Fifth Piano Symphony, also dedicated to me, having already been edited, typeset and performed

Will Donna Amato record it someday?

[ahinton]

Will Donna Amato record it someday?

I certainly hope so; it would be an awful waste of her efforts in preparing the world première if she didn't.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I certainly hope so; it would be an awful waste of her efforts in preparing the world première if she didn't.

Best,

Alistair

Indeed, but it's been quite a while since then. Is there a particular reason for waiting so long?

[ahinton]

Indeed, but it's been quite a while since then. Is there a particular reason for waiting so long?

A "wait and see" answer is neither what you would like to read nor I to write, but it's the best that I am able to proffer at present, I fear.

Best,

Alistair

[john11inc]

Is a recording of the 3rd Sonata available or planned, and are there plans for a recording of the 2nd Sonata by someone other than Tellef?

Also, what is going on with the Opus Archimagicum?  It seemed like it was a done deal that we would have a recording by now.  What's the hold up?

[ahinton]

Is a recording of the 3rd Sonata available or planned, and are there plans for a recording of the 2nd Sonata by someone other than Tellef?

Also, what is going on with the Opus Archimagicum?  It seemed like it was a done deal that we would have a recording by now.  What's the hold up?

I'm not sure what's happening about the 3rd sonata recording and I'm not aware that anyone else is planning to record the 2nd one any time soon; as to what's happening re the 5th, I have no news whatsoever - it's all quiet on the Archimagical front, I have to say.

Sorry not to be the bearer of more positive news - although, who knows? something else might be in the offing...

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Is a recording of the 3rd Sonata available or planned, and are there plans for a recording of the 2nd Sonata by someone other than Tellef?

There was a video posted of the first few minutes or so of the 3rd sonata on Tellef's website a few months back. I assume he is still working on getting the recording out there, due to the existence of that video.

[djealnla]

Is a recording of the 3rd Sonata available or planned, and are there plans for a recording of the 2nd Sonata by someone other than Tellef?

Also, what is going on with the Opus Archimagicum?  It seemed like it was a done deal that we would have a recording by now.  What's the hold up?

The piece will never get recorded. Anyone who touches it will die. Because of Sorabji's ended friendship with Bernard Bromage, the piece got cursed (by Bromage, surprise surprise). First it destroyed Artur Cimirro, who wanted to record it but has collapsed because of it. Now Tellef Johnson, an aspiring pseudo-virtuoso, is attempting to learn it, but in vain.

You have been warned.















 

[djealnla]

it's all quiet on the Archimagical front, I have to say

Perhaps it's because your Erchi Ma(r)gia Remarcal remark [sic] has inflicted some unrepairable damage on Tellef Johnson's psyche.  

[ahinton]

The piece will never get recorded.

Excuse me?

Anyone who touches it will die.

Yonty Solomon is indeed, sadly, dead - but he died many years after premièring that work.

Because of Sorabji's ended friendship with Bernard Bromage, the piece got cursed (by Bromage, surprise surprise).

Excuse me, again? What's this piece got to do with Bromage?

First it destroyed Artur Cimirro, who wanted to record it but has collapsed because of it.

Pardon? Where's the evidence that he wanted to record it? And what has happened to him?

Now Tellef Johnson, an aspiring pseudo-virtuoso, is attempting to learn it, but in vain.

Would anyone seriously "aspire" to be a "pseudo-virtuoso" (or indeed a "pseudo"-anything else, for that matter)? Why would TJ be "attempting to learn" this work "now", since he has already performed it? Again, your evidence and meaning here is...?...

You have been warned.

Not warned. Wound. As in up, it would seem. I think that you have quite abit of explaining to do if your remarks are to be considered here.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Perhaps it's because your Erchi Ma(r)gia Remarcal remark [sic] has inflicted some unrepairable damage on Tellef Johnson's psyche.  

Does this mean anything? If so, what?

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I think that you have quite abit of explaining to do if your remarks are to be considered here.

Here is my explanation (which implies that my remarks are not to be considered seriously):

[ahinton]

Here is my explanation (which implies that my remarks are not to be considered seriously):

Well, thank you for that - but do you think that you could now provide some real insights into matters under discussion here?

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Does this mean anything? If so, what?

Best,

Alistair

It's a pun, not unlike some that you yourself have posted in the past (like your recent Susan McClaryfication one).

Best,

Philip Glass

[djealnla]

Well, thank you for that - but do you think that you could now provide some real insights into matters under discussion here?

Best,

Alistair

I don't think anybody except for Tellef Johnson could - but even that would be off-topic, considering the title of this thread.

[ahinton]

It's a pun, not unlike some that you yourself have posted in the past (like your recent Susan McClaryfication one).

Really? Well, thank you for the explanation, even if the relationship between it, what you'd written and "Susan McClaryfication" remains unclear.

Best,

Philip Glass

In what way does such a contradiction in terms contribute meaningfully (or indeed at all) to this discussion? (oh, by the way, please don't feel any urgent need to answer such rhetorical questions!)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I don't think anybody except for Tellef Johnson could

Then should we assume from this that you're implying that you believe that you have nothing further to contribute to the thread yourself?

Whether or not TJ does so is, of course, up to him alone.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Hinty is on form tonight.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The piece will never get recorded {..} First it destroyed Artur Cimirro, who wanted to record it but has collapsed because of it.

What has happened to Cimirro's planned Tausig CDs? 

[ahinton]

Hinty is on form tonight.

Sadly not - or rather, sadly I wasn't - at least to the extent that I found myself at something of a loss to understand some of what was being written in this thread. Maybe it was because it had been a long day...

Best,

Alistair

[ch101]

sonata no.1, then opus clavisbalisticum.  sonata no.4 is quite inspirational, as well

[djealnla]

Then should we assume from this that you're implying that you believe that you have nothing further to contribute to the thread yourself?

Certainly not to its off-topic side.

I've already stated that my favorite Sorabji piano piece at the moment is the Solo Concerto, so that's it, really.

[djealnla]

Pardon? Where's the evidence that he wanted to record it?

Dear Mr. Hinton !

It always interested me whether one guy out there really exists. His name (as you may already have heard of him) is Artur Cimirro. He now plans to record

SORABJI - OPUS ARCHIMAGICUM (SONATA V)

On his web page he presents future projects and in June/July this year a CD containing this works will be released. Did you hear about it ? If so, he must propably be real.

Daniel

Yes, I have heard about this and yes, Mr Cimirro is indeed real. Whether or when he will accomplish this remarkable feat I cannot tell you as I do not know; there is, after all, no edition of the work as yet, although one is currently in preparation.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

What has happened to Cimirro's planned Tausig CDs? 

Tausig doesn't sell.

[thalbergmad]

Oh really

Of course, they would never sell as well as the millions that must fly of the shelves when a new Sorabji CD comes out .

Thal

[djealnla]

Oh really

Of course, they would never sell as well as the millions that must fly of the shelves when a new Sorabji CD comes out .

Thal

Hehe, you make a good point.   

I guess it's a kind of a "find a label interested in obscure composers/pieces" situation (consider Horowitz and Medtner, for instance).

[ronde_des_sylphes]

What has happened to Cimirro's planned Tausig CDs? 

Tausig doesn't sell.

It was to be on a label (Acte Prealable) which specialises in Polish music, and Tausig was a Pole, so my question (albeit off-topic) still stands. Anyone know? UK sales would certainly be at least two btw 

[john11inc]

Regarding Artur Cimirro, he is only real in the sense that he is a human being that exists that does have some capability to play the piano (probably), and has performed in extremely small venues sporadically.  Absolutely all of my interaction with him makes me strongly believe that a large portion of his repertoire, specifically the super-virtuoso and contemporary repertoire, are not actually works that he has played or can play, but are instead works he claims to play to draw attention to himself.  He makes *many* outlandish claims regarding what he will or won't "perform" or "record", and there is always an excuse for why it didn't happen.  Photographs of him that were previously used for promotional material on his website are also inconsistent with those currently used, as well as with videos of. . . someone. . . playing a couple of random pieces on youtube (not the sort of pieces that would be able to prove that he can play, for instance, Finnissy's Concerti or Stockhausen's Klavierstuck X, of course).  Much longer ago there was also some discrepancy regarding a recording that was generally believed to be of someone else that had been circulated with his name on it, although I cannot recall if there was undeniable proof that it was him who started that mess.  There was also a sharing of some transcriptions he wrote a long while back (this was probably in 2004 or 2005 on this forum, back when it was pianoforum instead of pianostreet) that were. . . well. . . they didn't give you the impression that someone with any idea of how the instrument worked had written them, and that's being about as nice as one can possibly be (although in fairness, the LH Wagner transcription on "his" youtube channel is quite decent).  He also completely stiffed me for some scores a few years ago, as a random aside, but it doesn't paint a good picture.

I wouldn't say he's a total phony, but there's definitely plenty that's fishy about the guy.  Until I see a video of him playing Xenakis or Finnissy that corresponds with a verifiable concert date and location I don't believe much that's said by or about him.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I had no faith in his existence as a genuine pianistic entity for a long time (didn't help that there was a point when his webpage played not actual piano, but some midi piano file!).

I do recall him (or some alter ego) posting details of a recital to be given in Toledo. I managed to find this online: https://fundacionculturaydeporte.com/pdf/programa_general.pdf (page 12)

Looks official enough, obviously doesn't prove he materialised and gave the concert.

[john11inc]

That link is broken.  Anyway, PM'd this to him on his youtube page:


I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but there have been a few instances of people expressing incredulity regarding your repertoire, among other things, that I was wondering if you would like to respond to.

Specifically, myself having spoken to a few composers and other pianists, there seem to be inconsistencies that I figured you would like to sort out.  To make a long story very, very short, I was wondering if you can verify performances (preferably with audio or video) of some of the works you have claimed to play.  Off the top of my head, Stockhausen's Klavierstuck VI or X, one of Finnissy's earlier works, perhaps the first or last movement of Boulez' Duexieme Sonate, or one of Alkan's more difficult works like the Scherzo Focoso, Le Preux or Etude-Scherzo de Bravoire No. 3.  An excerpt of Sorabji's Opus Archimagicum which someone was under the impression you planned to record would be great, or another work or excerpt by Sorabji.  Obviously, video is great, but considering the fact that there are very few recordings of these works, audio alone would be fine.  I have a lot of Finnissy's own performances he pulled off of MD or cassette for me a while back, so I'd be interested in having something to compare one of them to, but just whatever you have.

I'm not really accusing, but I saw this being talked about on a piano forum (and it wasn't the first time), so I am somewhat curious, but mostly I just figured I'd rather know than be left guessing.  Thanks for your time!


So I guess we'll just see!  Considering he claims to play a fair bit of Sorabji, maybe Alistair can let us know if there is any definitive proof of his pianism?  I have heard Alistair speak of Cimirro planning on typesetting this or that; does he ever follow through, and have you heard him actually play anything?  Particularly the Opus Archimagicum, which I assume hasn't exactly been ordered so many times you'd have lost track.

[ahinton]

So I guess we'll just see!  Considering he claims to play a fair bit of Sorabji, maybe Alistair can let us know if there is any definitive proof of his pianism?  I have heard Alistair speak of Cimirro planning on typesetting this or that; does he ever follow through, and have you heard him actually play anything?  Particularly the Opus Archimagicum, which I assume hasn't exactly been ordered so many times you'd have lost track.

Whilst I am not about to comment on the number of copies of the ms. or the relatively recent typeset edition of Opus Archimagicum that we have supplied, I can confirm that Mr Cimirro wrote to me in 2008 offering to make a typeset edition of that work and he accordngly acquired from us its the first movement for that purpose but, at the time when Tellef Johnson was announcing his intentions with the work almost a year later, not so much of a page of that edition had materialised, so eventually Alexander Abercrombie stepped into the breach and created, in a remarkably short period of time, the typeset edition of it that is in our catalogue. To date, Mr Cimirro has not typeet any score that I know about and I have not heard him play anything either, nor do I know anyone who has, so I am in no position to comment on him either as an editor or as a pianist.

I am inclined to think that the enormous repertoire advertised on his website rather reminds me of that of someone else in its sheer improbability, although at least there is ample verifiable evidence that the real repertoire of that other person is not especially small, so let's no go there.

Sorry not to be the bearer of any news whatsoever.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Alexander Abercrombie stepped into the breach and created, in a remarkably short period of time, the typeset edition of it that is in our catalogue

How short?

I am inclined to think that the enormous repertoire advertised on his website rather reminds me of that of someone else in its sheer improbability, although at least there is ample verifiable evidence that the real repertoire of that other person is not especially small, so let's no go there.

LOL

Ian or John?