Grand Pianos.. Pros and Cons?

[laska]

At the moment I have an upright Beale, but I was looking at getting a grand because I absolutely adore the look of them.

I'm wondering if people could me advice and their opinions about Grands. Do you think they're worth it? Does the length of the piano have much of an impact? What brands would you suggest? Should I buy second hand or brand new?

Any advice you could give me would be brilliant!

[gfiore]

 How much money are you willing to spend?  Grand prices start out at around $9,000 for junk, and soar up to $180,000 for the best of the best.

[laska]

Up to about $50,000AUD.. so around $35,000USD.

[donjuan]

Grand Pianos are definitely worth it!  They look good, they sound good, and when you play them, they feel good. (compared to most uprights, anyway)  Best purchase ever made. 

Does the length of the piano have much of an impact?

35 000 USD will buy you a VERY nice piano!  I think you might be able to look at a Petrof  or a Yamaha grand over 7 feet.   It depends on the size of the room you are going to put it in. What size grand were you wanting?  A small grand in a big room is probably better than a big grand in a small room.

Also, what floor material is in the room?  If you have solid wood floors, Yamaha might be too bright. 

I think Kawai sounds terrible, no matter how well it is tuned or where it is sitting, so be sure to stay clear of them. (IMO anyway)

35000 isnt quite enough for a Steinway grand. 

Should I buy second hand or brand new?

About 2nd hand pianos:  Sometimes you will see great deals, but most of the time, the person who is getting rid of the piano is doing so for very good reasons, so stay away.  For example, a beautiful piano that has been sitting in an old lady's house for 30 years, collecting dust and has a bunch of crap like picture frames sitting on top will not be a very good buy.  Chances are, every part of it has gone downhill and will take a lot of money to get it restored. (tuning, part replacement, warped soundboards from improper humidity, etc.)

However, there is a downside to buying new ones:  Salespeople.  Most are unethical, immoral, and will do absolutely everything they can to get you to buy the cheapest piano at the highest cost.  Simply put, they really don't want to find the best piano for you that suits you; They want to find a piano for you that suits them and would result in the greatest profit.  Watch out!  They can be very tricky (even putting time limits on "special" offers made "just for you, because I like you").  Learn to say "Ok, well, thanks for quoting the price.  I'll just check around some other places."  It is such a powerful blow to salespeople when you walk out of the store.  When you first walk in to the store, they will assume you are a fool, so prove to them you aren't and you will get great deals in the long run.  Don't be in a rush; If you are desperate to buy, then the salespeople are less than desperate to sell. 
---------
final piece of advice: Go to the library and get a copy ( hopefully, the most recent edition available) of Larry Fine's "The Piano Book."  He has so many great tips on piano shopping.  He even tells you how to talk to salespeople to get the best bargain possible. (I think I used some of it in my response on new pianos above)  A bit from the book that really helped me while shopping is when he suggests phoning places in the next city over to get prices.  This is especially helpful when a dealership (ex. Yamaha dealership) has a monopoly in your city.  (I saved 2K by doing this)

[laska]

Wow Thanks for that great input. And yeah.. Adelaide isn't exactly the biggest city.. only two stores I know of here sell grands.. so phoning melbourne might not be a bad idea.

I would probably prefer a smaller grand.. as whilst my house has many rooms, not any of them are overally large, and I'm looking at placing it in the entrance hall.

What are peoples opinions on baby grands?

[gfiore]

 Any grand under 6' is not what many folks would consider musically pleasing. Buy the largest size you can accomodate.
 Some of us have had 7'+ grands in rooms no larger than14'x14'.  The longer length of the bass strings, and longer length of the keys in a bigger grand will enable a more robust, and sonically pleasing bass , and the longer keys will enable more control and better response from the action.

[donjuan]

What are peoples opinions on baby grands?

Usually, when you say "baby grand," people think you are talking about a grand about 5'3'' or less.  This is a VERY small size, and usually, the sound quality is even worse than a normal upright.  I have a Yamaha C2 (5'8'') in my living room (with carpet), which is not big, and I couldn't be happier.

Any grand under 6' is not what many folks would consider musically pleasing.

I think that is complete B.S!  Gfiore is just spoiled because he has a ginormous Steinway, and after you play on those, well... Nothing thereafter will suffice.  It's kind of like seeing Crater Lake and then never being satisfied with any other lake.  Believe me, Laska, you are completely capable of enjoying the sound of a grand shorter than 6'.  Many people -people poorer than Donald Trump- enjoy the sound of smaller grand pianos.

longer length of the keys in a bigger grand will enable a more robust, and sonically pleasing bass , and the longer keys will enable more control and better response from the action.

Again, he's spoiled!  I have played on grands of many sizes. And I tell you, the difference is not that profound. (unless you are a piano technician like gfiore who notices these things more because he understands the instrument.  For ignoramouses like me and most pianists, we simply do not find ourselves blaming a bad performance on the length of the keys)

[gfiore]

 Mr. Don, I do not own a Steinway, and would never want to. I have a new Bösendorfer model 214 grand. You are young, and maybe cannot tell the nuances that a larger grand can offer. It also does'nt take a piano tech to be able to discriminate these differences. I have many clients who are very accomplished players, and they too would turn their noses up at a grand that is smaller than 6 feet in length. Sound wise they are very limiting, especially in the area of bass reponse. The longer keys of of the grands in the 7' to 9' range offer better leverage and action ratios, and are much more responsive to the pianists needs in regards to dynamic range and repetition rates.
 Regarding bad performances, if the extra key length, longer strings, and more soundboard area in square inches was a mute point, I'd expect to see more artists recording La Campanella on C2's, but I don't.

[laska]

Ahh well thanks for your help guys :-)

When I go into the city next I'll go via Winston Music or something and have a closer look at the pianos to see if I can get something that will sound nice enough, be big enough, but not big enough to take up the whole room.

[donjuan]

Regarding bad performances, if the extra key length, longer strings, and more soundboard area in square inches was a mute point, I'd expect to see more artists recording La Campanella on C2's, but I don't.

Hey, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.  When I played on a steinway concert grand in a concert hall for the first time, the sound was so huge and it made me feel so powerful.  It felt as if I could send sound down to the earth's core for the devil to hear.  It was the greatest musical experience of my life.

However, I don't need that experience everyday, sitting in my living room for me to enjoy music and have a decent instrument to practice on.  It sounds like laska wants to move up to a grand from an upright.  She never said anything about getting a piano for the purpose of making recordings.  Of course, I wouldn't want to record something using a C2, when I could use a bigger piano. 

The fact of the matter:  Yes, bigger grands sound and feel better, but anyone is capable of learning and enjoying music on a smaller piano.  I know what your'e thinking - 'why have hamburger when you can have steak?'  Well, maybe laska just wants beef, but isn't ready to pay for steak.  Maybe it would be best to have hamburger, get to know it, and maybe move on up to steak the next time she wants beef.

Sorry for getting the thing wrong about you having a steinway... I thought I read something from the past about that.  Wow, a Bosendorfer!  Well, that's like you having a Lamborghini and me having a Pontiac.  I've never driven a Lamborghini, but I bet that once I do, I wouldn't be satisfied driving my Pontiac.  However, up to that point when I drive the Lamborghini, my Pontiac suits me just fine.

[gfiore]

 Here she is. www.tinypic.com/msi3wz.jpg

[iumonito]

Nice looking piano, Curry.

Laska, US$35,000 will buy an spectacular piano.  In Australia, I would say first you should contact Ron Overs (in Sidney), and that may very well be the end of your troubles.  He may direct you to a nice rebuilt.

There is only one piano under 180 cm (6') that I would consider, Mason A, and I think in Australia you have better options in the size/quality/price ratio, particularly Kawai.  With your budget you should be able to buy a SK-6, which is a very nice piano.

I don't know how much they sell for in Australia, but I would say my first option with such a budget and not having Irmlers and Haeslers handy (which I suspect the case to be) would be a Loebau August Foerster 190 (I would be surprised and interested to hear from you if that money is enough for a 215).

Good luck.

P.S.  Don Juan, I read your posts in this string a little bit and I think you have no idea what you are talking about, but naturally you are entitled to your opinion.

[wzkit]

The baby grand that I have been most impressed with thus far is the Sauter 160 Alpha (Disclaimer: I just ordered a Sauter 185 Delta myself). Deep, rich and amazingly warm sound, a singing treble, and an adequate bass. In my opinion, it sounded very much like some other 6 footers I looked for in my search. Another beautiful small grand, which I have heard talked about (but not played it myself), is the Steingraeber 168. I have not tried the Mason and Hamelin A - they're not available in Singapore.

I'm not sure about the availability of Sauters in Australia, or of their prices - their distribution seems to be rather limited outside of Europe. Not long ago, another Australian on Pianoworld enquired about Sauter and Steingraeber prices in Singapore and was considering importing them over. I'm not sure if that would necessarily make better economic sense, but just informing you that it is a option that others have considered

[xenon]

The Petrof PII is a piano that should be around that price range, and is pretty nice.  I was piano shopping for my church (yay!) and I played a PII.  In general, it had a decent touch and all, but there was something that I felt was lacking.  However, it was definitely better than any of the Kawais there too.  (Sidenote: they also had the Petrof PI that Angela Cheng used to perform on!  Awesome piano, though it had quite a metallic clinky voice, apparently which she requested).

Anyhow, I would highly recommend the Yamaha C7.  I can't believe that I'm saying this, but it has to be one of the better pianos that I've played on.  Typically people look at Yamahas as "novice" pianos, but the C7 is something else.  The CFIIIS is trash, but the C7 is awesome.

Grands are much better.  Apart from cost, footprint, and tuning cost (and maybe some maintenance items, that should be rare), grands are the way to go.  Their actions are much better, as the "return" of the hammer etc is actuated by gravity, instead of using the complex mechanics in upright pianos.  They produce better sound due to their size, and are much better to play on.  Uprights can't handle certian pieces, and can even be trying on the back to play on (I find grands to be a lot easier on the back, especiall the lower back).

As for new/used, unlike cars, pianos don't really depreciate in quality as radically.  However, you do have to look out for crooked salespeople!  Second hand pianos also have the bonus of having been broken in, a big plus for me, personally.  There are many places on the Internet that will help you look for a good second-hand piano.

PS: it seems that the C6 is more in your price range.  I think they are great too.  I played on a C6 for some exams, and they had just the perfect touch.  Well, for me that is.  If touch was rated on a scale from 1 - 10, 1 being light and 10 being hard, I like mine from 5-6 or so.  Based only on the pianos I have played: The Kawais I've played on has been around 8-10.  Steinways have been anywhere from 2-6.  The C7 is around a 4.  Bosendorfers are generally around 6-7.  The Steinweg-Grotrian was around an 8-9.  Baldwins have been from 4-7.  I can't remember the rest...

Really depends on the touch you like, and remember that not all pianos within the same brand are the same.  Have fun and happy shopping!

[iumonito]

The baby grand that I have been most impressed with thus far is the Sauter 160 Alpha (Disclaimer: I just ordered a Sauter 185 Delta myself). Deep, rich and amazingly warm sound, a singing treble, and an adequate bass. In my opinion, it sounded very much like some other 6 footers I looked for in my search. Another beautiful small grand, which I have heard talked about (but not played it myself), is the Steingraeber 168. I have not tried the Mason and Hamelin A - they're not available in Singapore.

I'm not sure about the availability of Sauters in Australia, or of their prices - their distribution seems to be rather limited outside of Europe. Not long ago, another Australian on Pianoworld enquired about Sauter and Steingraeber prices in Singapore and was considering importing them over. I'm not sure if that would necessarily make better economic sense, but just informing you that it is a option that others have considered

I can report on the Steingraeber 168, which I don't think can be bought with $35K (any one know any differently?).  It is an extraordinary piano, but for its price I would say it only makes sense if you have no space for something bigger.  Because of the design of the cross-stringing, Steingraeber is actually able to fit in strings materially longer (I don't know how much longer, but it makes a huge difference in sound) than similarly sized pianos.

For not much more money you can get the Steingraeber 205, which is a divine piano.  We are not talking about the price range stated in the original post, though.

[wzkit]

I can report on the Steigraeber 168, which I don't think can be bought with $35K (any one know any differently?).  It is an extraordinary piano, but for its price I would say it only makes sense if you have no speace for something bigger.  Because of the design of the cross-stringing, Steingraeber is actually able to fit in strings materially longer (I don't know how much longer, but it makes a huge difference in sound) than similarly sized pianos.

For not much more money you can get the Steingraeber 209, which is a divine piano.  We are not talking about the price range stated in teh original post, though.

I would believe both the Steingraeber 168 and Sauter Alpha 160 can be had for around US$35K in Singapore (or even less), but perhaps not in the US.

 I did try a 4 year old Steingraeber baby grand (not sure if it was the 168 - might have been smaller) during my search, and I found it rather hard and metallic in tone, not to mention a stiff action and limited dynamic range. I'd agree that the Steingraeber 205 is an awesome instrument, but if that 4 year old baby grand is representative, then I would be concerned about the durability and longevity of the instrument.  I would not want a piano that sounds good when new but deteriorates rapidly with age.  All pianos deteriorate of course, but the question is how fast. My observation with some of the newer Yamahas is that they become brittle rather fast, although some 20-30+ year old Yamahas amazingly appear to retain their warmth. Difference in quality of construction perhaps? Of course, other factors such as the way the instrument had been taken care of, its exposure to humditiy etc. all play a part, but I can only report what I have observed

Of course, if the original poster prefers a larger instrument at that price range, then I would easily recommend a Japanese piano. For example, a Shigeru SK-5 or SK-6 can be easily bought for US$35K in Singapore. Again, the longevity of that series is untested, but for the price/performance ratio, I think it might be worth the risk!

[tosca1]

Carl Mikuli wrote that Chopin taught at a Pleyel upright piano while his pupil always played on a fine concert grand. This anecdote says more about Chopin's devoted approach in helping his pupils than the debate about the superiority of  the grand piano in comparision with the vertical piano.

It is timely to remind ourselves that whatever instrument we own or play, it is the refinement and development of our piano-playing skills that will produce the full potential in beauty of sound of any instrument.

Robert.

[alzado]

One poster writes--

Any grand under 6' is not what many folks would consider musically pleasing. Buy the largest size you can accomodate.
Some of us have had 7'+ grands in rooms no larger than14'x14'.  The longer length of the bass strings, and longer length of the keys in a bigger grand will enable a more robust, and sonically pleasing bass , and the longer keys will enable more control and better response from the action.

I believe this is unbalanced and extreme.  One should avoid very small grands, I believe, such as 4'10", or even 5'2", although Yamaha makes some nice ones in the latter size.  However, when you get into grands in the 5'6" or 5'8" range, you have enough piano to sustain richness of sound. 

It is one thing to argue, perhaps correctly, that grands over 6' have superior sound to smaller ones -- but it is quite something else to suggest than anything less is simply not adequate.

I wish you could visit my salon and listen to my 5' 8" grand.  I think I could convince you rather quickly that grands of that size can sound very rich and resonant.

You will get some snobs on this board who apparently have money, and who are quite given to comments that anything less than a Steinway is not adequate, or that any size less than a 6' grand is not adequate.  It is an indirect way of boasting about what they are able to afford, and to suggest that the rest of us just comprise so much "unwashed rabble."

[gfiore]

 I tune grands in the 5'2" - 5'10" range everyday. I also tune grands in the 6'0"- 9'0" range also. You can certainly make music on a small 5'8" grand, but is it musically satisfying? Do you get the bass definition and power of a 7" grand? For the average non professional pianist maybe. But a professional player has different requirements for a home instrument,  anything under 6'0" will usually not not suffice.

[donjuan]

I tune grands in the 5'2" - 5'10" range everyday. I also tune grands in the 6'0"- 9'0" range also. You can certainly make music on a small 5'8" grand, but is it musically satisfying? Do you get the bass definition and power of a 7" grand? For the average non professional pianist maybe. But a professional player has different requirements for a home instrument,  anything under 6'0" will usually not not suffice.

If you are playing on a small grand piano (5'8'' for example) that has been well tuned, well regulated, nothing broken -and you still complain about a bad performance being the fault of the weak bass definition- that doesn't make you a professional pianist.  That just makes you a $&*ing bad workman who can't do anything but blame his tools.  When people listen to you play, they wont say "Oh, he sucks!  That bass definition really blew it for him!  I'm not listening to him play again!"

You can certainly make music on a small 5'8" grand, but is it musically satisfying? Do you get the bass definition and power of a 7" grand?

sure it's musically satistfying, if that is all you have ever known.

no one here ever claimed the bass definition on smaller grands was equivalent to the larger ones.  In terms of laska's question "Does the length of the piano have much of an impact?," you have answered it ad nauseum.  Yes, there is a big impact!  But you don't need it to learn music and be a great pianist.  To appreciate the instrument in all its beauty, perhaps.. but if you think you can measure your impact as a pianist by the length of the piano you play, well, then you are just a snob.

[gfiore]

 You don't pay attention very well. I said most professional pianists do not like the the sound of small grands. It does not affect their performance. They can play well on most anything. It's just not what they choose to play in their home, or on the concert stage. It has nothing to do with being a snob, it's more to do with a refinement of their ears and developed tastes.

[alzado]

I am beginning to see gfiore's point. 

Horowitz had a concert grand in his NY apartment.  It was hoisted up there with a crane.   Even in a large apartment, a 9' piano is going to take up a huge amount of space. 

If one talks only of professional pianists -- and concert artists, not bar-room performers -- why not expect the best?  Taking it that way, it is hard to fault gfore.  However . . .

I do play my 5'8" grand in a modest-sized room.  When I hit octaves hard that extend down into the A0 through B1 range, there's a very rich resonance.  You not only hear it, you tend to feel it.  The piano does not lack power. 

Comparing my grand to the Yamaha upright I play at my lesson every week, I have a lot more piano and a lot more richness of sound.  Comparing my mid-sized grand with a full concert grand, I"m not making the grade.

But perhaps it is unrealistic to expect everyone to buy a really BIG piano for their home.  Many homes today are not proportioned well for a grand piano -- even a small one. 

Putting a really LARGE piano in many homes would be like trying to put an aircraft carrier in one's living room.

So I suspect gfiore's point is valid, but his practical advice to the thread originator is not very sensible.

[leahcim]

So I suspect gfiore's point is valid, but his practical advice to the thread originator is not very sensible.

He said "buy the largest size you can accommodate" and, in the same post, explained why the larger piano was "more" in terms of the sound and the action. As well as pointing out that people have these larger pianos in rooms that aren't that large.

It seems unemotive, pragmatic advice to me. I can't see why it was considered extreme.

Perhaps the difference is whether some read it and think "Perhaps this guy knows his onions and if I get a grand piano then maybe the room I have is big enough after all. It might be worth considering a large one because of the sound and the action. Looks like it makes sense to get the largest one I can" rather than experiencing piano length envy?

[alzado]

leachim writes--

It seems unemotive, pragmatic advice to me. I can't see why it was considered extreme.

Let me just back up and repeat what gfore said.  He feels that a 7' piano can be placed in a room of 14' by 14' with no problem.   Doesn't that seem crazy to you?  I mean, really?

In my family, my wife tends to be the decorator and to plan our decor.  I know she would consider a piano that size in a small living room to be rather crazy from a decorating point of view.

A small room tends to amplify the apparent loudness of a piano.  Putting a big, performance-style piano in such a small room . . . .   well, can you imagine what the cadenzas of a Rachmaninoff concerto would sound like?

As for "length envy"  -- we poor males.  How about the many women who either play piano or teach piano? 

Well, you have to live in your home.  If you want to put a huge piano in a small salon, you can do what you want. 

Best--

[gfiore]

 A, I find that when it comes to their pianos, the pianist's wives have no say. The pianist needs his tool, it's how he makes a living, and room decor is not a concern. Voicing the piano for a small room is also not a problem.
 Tavner, a member of Piano World Forum, just purchased a Mason&Hamlin CC94 9'4" concert grand for his home. He says that is even more mellow and seems to be less of a concern regarding volume than the BB he traded in.

[cfortunato]

Any grand under 6' is not what many folks would consider musically pleasing.

What nonsense.  A BABY grand has a sound that the VAST MAJORITY of people consider musically pleasing.  Heck, most people find a good spinnet or upright "musically pleasing."  If you want to say the larger piano the better, fine.  But implying that small grand is damned near worthless is really, really ridiculous.

[gfiore]

 May be to the general population, but to a professional pianist,  for home use, they are not.  When Marc-Andre Hamelin was shopping for a new grand several years ago, he was a offered a Bösendorfer model 170 at a great price. He said no thanks, not enough piano, and chose an Estonia 190 instead.
 I never said a small grand is worthless, where did you get that?  I said a larger grand is the choice most professionals make for their own home pianos.

[rich_galassini]

Often a lurker rarely a poster here,

Gfiore speaks truth on several levels. Hamelin did indeed choose a 190 Estonia over a 170 Bosie and I can't imagine a professional level pianist playing on a smaller grand (5 1/2 ft. or under) if he\she had a choice in the matter.

It is also true that larger grands dont just offer a louder performance, they also offer more control. This means that a well regulated 7 to 9 ft. grand actually offers the ability for the pianist to play softer than they are able to on a smaller grand because the geometry of the action is purer. It is easier to barely touch the string with the hammer if technique and regulation are both in good shape.

I hope this helps a bit,

[cfortunato]

I never said a small grand is worthless, where did you get that?

From the phrase "musically pleasing."  Something that isn't musically pleasing is pretty much worthless for music, isn't it?

[gfiore]

 No, it may be musically pleasing to someone that does'nt know any better, but to a professional it would'nt be. Think about why concerts and recordings are normally made on concert grands. To be musically pleasing to the artist , and to the audience.

[leahcim]

Let me just back up and repeat what gfore said.  He feels that a 7' piano can be placed in a room of 14' by 14' with no problem.   Doesn't that seem crazy to you?  I mean, really?

If it did seem "crazy" I'm surprised that your replies didn't mention it.

You seemed to believe the advice was impractical before for different reasons.

Your new reasons don't seem valid either. "Get the biggest size you can accommodate" is probably good advice for anyone hoping to be a wife, albeit unintentially so Other than that, I don't see how or why your wife's wallpapering skills could / should have been taken into account since they weren't mentioned as criteria.

The volume question is interesting though.

[alzado]

leachim writes--

If it did seem "crazy" I'm surprised that your replies didn't mention it.

You seemed to believe the advice was impractical before for different reasons.

Your new reasons don't seem valid either. "Get the biggest size you can accommodate" is probably good advice for anyone hoping to be a wife, albeit unintentially so  Other than that, I don't see how or why your wife's wallpapering skills could / should have been taken into account since they weren't mentioned as criteria.

The volume question is interesting though.

Well, there is no point in trying to reply with any detail.  I do feel you have constructed things I've never said.  What are you talking about when you speak of my wife's "wallpapering skills"?  This is pure invention on your part.

Hey, I get it!  Make up things the other poster never said, all the better to come back with stunningly clever replies!   

Anyone who would put a 7' grand in a small room and insist it is appropriate has probably never lived in a beautiful and sensibly decorated home. 

I won't touch your comment referring to "size" and "hoping to be a wife, albeit unintentionally so."   A rather tasteless effort at humor, if I read you right.

[leahcim]

Well, there is no point in trying to reply with any detail.  I do feel you have constructed things I've never said.  What are you talking about when you speak of my wife's "wallpapering skills"?  This is pure invention on your part.

You said "In my family, my wife tends to be the decorator and to plan our decor.  I know she would consider a piano that size in a small living room to be rather crazy from a decorating point of view."

So yeah, I was being sarcastic. Wallpapering is usually part of decorating a room. I wondered if perhaps she'd find it difficult to wallpaper the room with the piano there? Most good gynacologists can wallpaper their hall through the letterbox AIUI, so it's not a universal issue.

However, the point wasn't the sarcasm. It was that your new criteria, whatever it was
specifically to do with decorating, if not my sarcastic suggestion of wallpapering, may be a perfectly valid consideration for some when buying a piano, but it doesn't seem to negate the advice given in the thread.

There may be hundreds of such criteria but it would make little sense for someone giving advice on buying a piano and what size to get for a particular room to add caveats for every possible one.

[maul]

Any grand under 6' is not what many folks would consider musically pleasing

No, it may be musically pleasing to someone that does'nt know any better, but to a professional it would'nt be.

That's your problem. You're contradicting yourself. How many people are professional concert pianists in the same league as Hamelin? "Many folks" is absurd. To bring in the argument of Hamelin's preferences in relation to the overall quality range of pianos is absurd.

[leahcim]

To bring in the argument of Hamelin's preferences in relation to the overall quality range of pianos is absurd.

Not really, it's just selective quoting of 2 different messages in a subthread that largely ignored what advice he gave.

He didn't say there are many people like Hamelin. Although, even if he had, what is "many"? I would say there have been many professional pianists and I'd expect the quote with "many folk" to be true from some perspective. But, equally, compared with some things there aren't many people period. Many is relative.

But, if the best rebuttal of what he said is to ignore his advice completely and nitpick over selected quotes, I hope the instruments folder continues to get "absurd" advice

[maul]

The fact is, he said many folk wouldn't consider a grand under 6' musically pleasing. When you hear many folk you don't think "ah, professional pianists", you think well.... many people in general... or at the most, many people who play piano. If he meant professional pianists ala Hamelin, it's obvious he would have stated it differently. Quit pulling stuff out of your ass for the sake of arguing... it's a big trend I see in your posts.

[ahinton]

The fact is, he said many folk wouldn't consider a grand under 6' musically pleasing. When you hear many folk you don't think "ah, professional pianists", you think well.... many people in general... or at the most, many people who play piano. If he meant professional pianists ala Hamelin, it's obvious he would have stated it differently. Quit pulling stuff out of your ass for the sake of arguing... it's a big trend I see in your posts.

I think that you may be reacting a little harshly here. What matters - at least at the present point in this thread - is the question of personal preferences in terms of sizes of grand piano and their relative acceptabilities or otherwise. When we are talking about professional pianists, not only will they have more understanding of what may or may not "please" them than is likely for most other people who have pianos, they will also be considering the perspective of how their home studio piano - i.e. practice piano - will compare with the various kinds of concert grand upon which they will generally give their public performances. They will also have a more acute awareness of the suitabilities of different instruments for different purposes and different sizes of instrument in places of differing size and acoustical properties than most of the rest of us will expect to have. On top of all that, all such considerations will inevitably be matters of personal taste as well as professional expertise, so what may suit Hamelin cannot necessarily be expected to suit everyone else - not even all other professional pianists. At the other end of the scale, I do remember Hamelin, at a recording session some 15 years ago, expressing discomfort at working on an excellent Bösendorfer 290 on the basis that he didn't feel as though he could hear properly what he was doing; in fact, he was playing Sorabji's First Piano Sonata from the score on the music stand in front of him (which may not have helped him any in this regard), but what really seemed to bother him was the fact that the sound was developing too far away from him for comfort. It actually sounded great, particularly from halfway down the church where he was recording it. Of course some small grands are such that their ability to please people is somewhat on the low side, but then again I have a beautifully restored 1928 Mason & Hamlin grand of the smallest size which is pretty powerful for its dimensions and has pleased quite a number of pianists (apart from its currently rather heavy action). I am not a pianist myself, but I have to say that I have found very few grand pianos of less than 6' length to be satisfying - but that's only a personal opinion.

Best,

Alistair

[alzado]

memminger writes:

Quit pulling stuff out of your ass for the sake of arguing... it's a big trend I see in your posts.

I wonder if memminger is aware how uncouth he seems with this sort of workshirt diction.  He also tells the other guy "you always . . . ."    This is a rather juvenile tactic in arguments. 

On the other hand, Alistair deserves a pat on the back for a very thoughtful posting.

Leachim and I disagreed, but in a civilized manner.  A pat on the back for him, too.

[maul]

Based on my mindset at the time, it was a logical response. Yes, I admit it was rather "uncouth".  It happens.

[mikey6]

Wow Thanks for that great input. And yeah.. Adelaide isn't exactly the biggest city.. only two stores I know of here sell grands.. so phoning melbourne might not be a bad idea.

hmm, a fellow cityperson.
ahm, I got mine from Winston last year, but got it cheap coz my piano tuner new about a sort of hush sale.  Maybe you could ask around.

[henrah]

I think the base arguement of this whole thread has been: the bigger, the better. Atleast that's how I see it, and I think it's pretty true. The biggest piano that you can comfortably accommodate in your home would be the best, and if tuned/voiced right it won't be crazily loud in a small room.

As for makes of piano, anyone here played a Fazioli? I (my family) own one, and it is simply wonderful. The dynamic range is huge, allowing extreme ppp and fff, and the touch is something which I haven't found anything better of. I played a Steinway at my friends house, and also in New York when I holidayed in America at the Steinway gallery, and I find the pedal is very clunky (the dampers dropping onto the strings quite hard), and also too short (i.e. very little range between dampers off the strings and on). But Fazioli's pedalling is much more ranged, and allows me to 'half pedal'. This is where I hit the lowest 4octave with both hands of a certain note, then play a sequence of chords in the treble range and, during that sequence of chords, I release the pedal and sustain it again very quickly. This keeps the bass note still ringing and allows for a change in the treble chords without sounding dissonant. I find this a wonderful component for a section of one of the only pieces I know completely (Serenade by my friend Barnaby Southgate), which goes like this:



As I said, it makes it possible to still here the bass notes, whilst keeping the dissonance away from the chromatic change in chords.

I don't know which Fazioli we have, but I know it's either the 212 or 228. I have also played the smallest - the 156 - and it certainly does not lack in sound quality. The extreme treble notes suffice slightly, but not hugely.

If you look on the website, it shows 6 professional pianist's remarks on Fazioli pianos. One of them - Nikolai Demidenko - bought a 183 and said '...in 7 months all the pianos I played were a dissapointment...' and the 183 is the second smallest they do. I myself do not know any of the pianists mentioned, as my musical knowledge is quite limited (in terminology, repetoire, composers and pianists) to only the most globally known (Cziffra, Hamelin, Horowitz...you get the picture).

If anything, I would advise a Fazioli: it's a great piano, whichever model you choose.
Henrah

[donjuan]

If anything, I would advise a Fazioli: it's a great piano, whichever model you choose.
Henrah

which ever model laska chooses, it will be above her price range.

[clef]

I have an upright piano at home and also an 88 key piano style keyboard.  I would love to have a grand piano, but they take up alot of space, even though I live in a large house, for a fair amount of space would have to be compromised...  I do think that they play quite a bit better, notacable but if you are happy with an upright then...

[supertonic]

If anything, I would advise a Fazioli: it's a great piano, whichever model you choose.
Henrah

I agree with you, I once play a Fazioli in the Piano showroom, I just cannot describe it, even an amateur can tell the difference after just playing a few notes, this is something not experienced on a steinway. Fazioli is my dream piano, if one day my playing reaches the level so as to deserve for one.

[shoshin]

the one I liked in the show room was this 100 year old one...it was also the longest in the show room. easily beat the steinways...easily.  But 100 year old piano probably would fall apart. i'm rambling.

pros of grand pianos: sound
cons: size

[cy_shuster]

There are many more advantages to grand pianos.

1.  Repetition: the action has extra parts, to allow you to repeat a note faster, and without releasing the key all the way as in an upright.

2.  Touch: grand actions have a different feeling at the end of the keystroke, a small "thump" as the weight of the hammer is released.  This is called "aftertouch", and is a signal to the pianist that allows pianissimo with control.

3.  Efficiency of damping: the dampers hit the strings at the same point as the hammers, allowing for fast, efficient damping, and control for effects like half-pedaling.

4.  Cost of maintenance: it's far easier to replace a string, remove the action, clean the soundboard, seat strings on the bridges, or do practically anything else on a grand than on an upright.  The smaller the upright, the worse the problem (you know what I mean, Curry!).

5.  Different pedals: the una corda pedal works so much better in a grand than an upright, it should count as a different pedal.  I have yet to find an upright where I could tell any difference with the left pedal down.  Most grands have a middle sostenuto pedal, which is useful for large jumps such as in Debussy; most uprights have only a "bass sustain" middle pedal.

6.  Better stringing scale: most grands have much larger strings than most uprights, allowing a much smoother transition between bass and low tenor (the two octaves below middle C).

7.  More reliable action: gravity ensures that hammers, wippens, and keys stay in contact through the keystroke.  Uprights rely on springs to return hammers and jacks to their starting position.  Springs break, get weak, and come out of position.

8.  Easier to move (believe it or not): a grand piano on its side with legs removed is a long, thin box, just the case.  It's much easier to navigate through doorways and on the landings of staircases.  It's a lot harder to put an upright on end to make a sharp turn.

9.  Adjustable sound volume with the lid: some uprights allow this, but it hardly makes a difference.

10.  Longer keys: the actual keysticks are longer on most grands, allowing finer control.

Uprights have some features that might be advantages for some people: it's easier to rig up a "mute" pedal to allow practice play, for example, and they do take up less floor space.  But technically it is a compromised design, in my opinion.

--Cy--

[yamaha2006]

How can Fazioli be so great?
The factory was initiated in 1978 only !!!

It's a quite new brand, how can they sound so good without the required experience?

It's like saying someone can plays Sonata Moonlight in just 1 year with no precedent experience !!!

I think the sound of Fazioli is good since they build very large pianos...and because special care is dedicated to them...
Besides they copy many great other brands in their processes...They do not own any patents !

But anyway it is a great piano, it's cristal clear !

[gfiore]

 Yamaha, don't make statemants about pianos when you have no real knowledge about them. What you said about Fazioli is laughable at best.  It is true that they are a young company, but that has nothing to do with the goal of designing and manufacturing a top notch piano. They also do not copy any great brands in their design, they have quite a few unique construction deatails that are theirs alone, including patents.
 They also do not limit themselves to building only large grands. They build grands in six sizes, from 5'2" to 10'2".

[yamaha2006]

Well, I just see that the present-day trend is to fustigate great Brands and to rise Fazioli or any other "new names" just because they do not behave like the "old ones".
Of course Fazioli is great, but I am not sure the other sizes (except the Concert Grand) can be comparable to Bösendorfer, Bechstein or S&S, that's all !
All Grands are perfect, even yamaha C7 (one of the best) !!!
Then Fazioli is not "the best" if we include all the types of pianos, ony one size is great !

[gfiore]

  Have you played any other Fazioli grands besides their concert grands? All of their grands are magnificent, and do compare with well with the other tier one manufacturers. The Fazioli 212, and 228 models are especially well balanced instruments. THe MBA actions are also available on any Fazioli models, and make these pianos a joy to play. 
 I have a new Bösendorefer model 214 grand, and the Fazioli 212 can definitely can give even my piano a run for the money.