how difficult is mozart??

[matt haley]

  just wondered guys...

how difficult do you find mozart to play perfectly....was reading a thread and watched an interview with pianist ronald brautigan whos mozart playing is exquisite... many people echo the same comments that every note has to be perfect and its the kind of music which should be mastered at an early age...

ive played plenty of movements from beethovens sonatas and many works of chopin,liszt,ravel and scriabin who each have extremely difficult works but i do find mozart extremely hard to play to perfection.... especially k576 in d major which iv been working on...

would love to hear your thoughts...

   also comments of him as a composer aswell

     thanks so much

   Matt haley..    pianist form manchester.england 

[zheer]

I have recently discoverd what the word perfect means to most people, and i believe its similar to the way a MIDI plays music. With a MIDI you can very easly put in the notes of a mozart sonata, and voala, it will play it note perfect. However if you are intrested in music and beauty, then Horowitz way pf playing Mozart is perfect, he himself said that mozart should be playd in a free way, like haw you would play chopin for example. So what perfect means to someone, can also mean something else to another.
        I agree with Horowitz, the music of mozart is so perfect, that it demands from the performer freedom and expression,thus to play mozart in a romantic and not in a dry mechanical way. This is only my opinion.

[matt haley]

  sheer.....

  how do you find mozart to play yourself compared to all the other composers whos work youve played..

  id be interested in knowing which sonatas youve played and how you found them..

   have you played the the famous sonata in 1 k331   with the rondo alla turca (3rd mov)..

    the variations on the 1st movement can be tricky

[pianistimo]

i agree with zheer that mozart made the piano 'sing.'  the best way to play mozart, imo, is to listen to a lot of vocalists.  i used to play things way too 'stiffly' and was thankful to my most recent teacher to play his fantasy.  the nice thing about learning something with a freer form, is you see mozart in a different light.  then, you go back to the sonatas and think, hmm...i may repeat sections at similar tempos (so things don't seem odd) but maybe i can take a slight pause here - or slow down here and then regain the SAME tempo - bring out a different element or voice - vary the dynamics within the respected ranges.

i've never liked a rubato that was too wandering.  you have to make up for the slowing down - by statements that are also somewhat impetuous.  maybe like a weather vane - blowing and twirling one way - and then slowing, stopping - and then picking up and blowing the other way.  you can hear separate characters in some of his pieces (female/male voices) and bring them out distinctly.  also, just as with scarlatti - you have to experiment and just see if you should use a slight marcato (not quite staccato) but try always to sing and not make it sound like chop, chop.

[zheer]

  sheer.....

  how do you find mozart to play yourself compared to all the other composers whos work youve played..
  

 Do you want to know the truth, the only thing that you need to consider when playing Mozart is your touch, so if your touch has been  conditioned by playing Rachmaninoff , Liszt, Chopin, Beethoven, it will be a good idea to change your touch slightly. Now there are many protencious people out there who will tell you this that and the other, for example haw a beethoven G# is different from a Mozart G#, these people can stick their way of Mozart playing where the sun dont shine. Personally i have playd all the mozart sonstas apart from one by sight, but i wont bother playing them for anyone i cant be botherd with all the crap some pianists comeout with.

[pianistimo]

that's why some virtuosos are called 'romantic classisists' and others 'classic romanticists.'  i believe i am the former.  i don't see any beethoven in mozart because the dynamic levels to me were much less on the pianos that mozart played vs the ones beethoven played.  so i beg to differ. 

in terms of virtuosos - my ideal is murray perhia when it comes to mozart.  everyone has their ideal.  perhia is sort of inbetween.  he definately has his own feelings - but he is not overtly changing anything mozart wrote tempo wise, marking wise, dynamic range wise, etc.

[musicsdarkangel]

I think that Mozart is incredibly difficult to master.

Every note does need to be perfect.  Even the 16th/32nd note phrases all need to be sculpted.


The way to practice is really slowly, and exaggerating dynamics in runs and what not.


K 284 was such a beast for me.

[zheer]

Am sorry pianistimo i think you are one of those pianists that really need spoon feeding, i was reading what you said your teacher was teaching with technical stuff and am sorry thats like total spoon feeding, one should not be tought haw to put a spoon in ones own mouth. Basically what you said about Beethoven and Mozart is so obvious that it is really patronizing, like i said i cant be botherd, Have a good day.

[teresa_b]

Hi all,

Mozart is my favorite, so I will put in my 2 cents-worth.  I find Mozart to be one of the most difficult, although not in the sense of sheer technique, of course--Bach WTC or Chopin etudes, etc, are more difficult to even get notes.

The difficulties lie in the sometimes deceptive trickiness of certain passages, and the transparency.  Somewhere on the Audition room I have the Mozart Concerto no 19 finale and the 2nd movement.  If you listen, you can hear that I made some mistakes out of nervousness in the finale.  I HATE those mistakes (admittedly, they were less noticeable in the live performance--on tape, there they are forever  .) because of the obviousness of them!  

And of course, the right touch is so important.  Somewhere on this site, someone described it as "Air between the notes" or the like.  That's a good way of contrasting a Mozart legato and, say, a Brahms one.  

Anyway, when Mozart comes out right, what a sublime joy!

Teresa

[beanman]

i think mozart is rubbish. i have learnt rondo alla turca and it is easy, even to get note perfection. volod's has a much more interesting piece,

mozart supposedly wrote music as pantomimes are written today> as alaugh which sums mozart up.

people who claim to like him are just trying to sound clever and superior, but in fact they come across as common, snobbish and boring.

i cant think of a composer who puts less thought and feeling into his works.

ps.
learning rondo alla turca made me physically sick, but you have to learn lame catchy uninteresting background music to get a job as a pianist dont you!

[pianistimo]

mozart composed his most beautiful piano concertos in vienna.  he was not an average joker.  he was above par.  he was aware of all the instruments sounds, ranges, and what they were capable of (writing also violin, flute, horn concertos). when you listen to his mature piano concertos you see that he may have fooled around in some of his earlier music (but that's half the fun of playing it) and yet other music is genius quality.  even the 'musical joke' was a stroke of genius.  he had to make it sound good and funny at the same time.  if it wasn't for mozart - people wouldn't have had a sense of humor in the classical era.  it saves peoples sanity sometimes.

[pianistimo]

dear zheer,

i am not a 'spoon fed' pianist.  my teacher plays things as an example of his interpretation - but i have never repeated his interpretations exactly.  i wouldn't want to.  as far as technique - that's what piano lessons are all about.  do you go for lessons to learn what you already know?  of course not.  that is not spoon feeding.

like you, i paid a pretty penny for lessons - so i'm not going to waste them by learning to play as i already have played before.  the things my teacher suggested validly helped my technique.  i may not have the time to practice that you do - but i am no slouch either.

you may think from some of my posts that i am not serious about being professional - but i am very serious.  therefore, however slow my progress - i will beat anyone who says that i am a spoon fed type of student.  *knocks thalbergmad's head and zheers together.

ok i have a slight crush on my teacher and sometimes have a hard time listening to what he's saying.  but, i do remember what he says.  the crush is mostly on his playing.  but occasionally when he isn't looking i look at him and think he's just too good to be true.

[beanman]

i have an open mind, so suggest one piece, the ultimate in mozart repertoire that will change my opinion of him and i will listen to it.

he gives people a sense of humour in classcal musci because he is a silly little boy to laugh at and wet his pants

[I Love Xenakis]

I think the whole "Mozart is impossible to play perfectly" thing is a myth, honestly.  He's just simply not difficult compared to so many other prominant composers.


Also, I don't think it's fair to put Mozart on a pedastal like that, because who's to say a perfect performance of Liszt or Alkan or Chopin isn't what's required?

[pianistimo]

mozart's fantasy K 475 (interspersed with sonatas).  it's quite mature in terms of sound.  and, also the fantasy and fugue K394.

don't think it's really a thread about comparing composers.  just asking difficulty.  it may be easy to play most of his works, but much harder to play well.  people say just because it is PIANISTIC (unlike some of brahms, alkan, etc) that it is easy.  the fact that it is easy, is because he was a good composer and wrote well for the piano.  you can focus on the playing and not the notes as much - and be much freer in mozart than practically any other composer.  (granted that you can get carried away if you are into chopin /liszt - but the sounds are blurry - and mozart's are clear).

mozart IS on a pedestal with me because it is so crystal clear - like a chandalier.  you can focus on the sounds that you can make with the piano.  simple doesn't always = bad.  and, i tend to like to be able to guess what's coming in some of my repertoire (unlike barber - where you cannot just 'wing it.')

[sharon_f]

I always enjoy it when new people join the forum. 

[steve jones]

My own opinion (from my very limited knowledge), is that Mozart was far more acomplished at the subtle splendors when compared to the likes of Beethoven. I reality, I prefer Beethoven, but the more I hear of Mozart, the more I begin to understand what it is that gets some all gooy.

Personally, I dont see how Mozart can be considered difficult music though. Not to say you can make a hash of it! But compared to the latter stuff, Mozart appears to be pretty easy going.

Maybe I will live to eat those words, as I plan to tackle some complete sonatas when Im through with the Inventions!

[rc]

I have a beef with the word 'perfection'. Was actually talking with my teacher about it a few lessons ago. The very notion of perfect isn't real, it's just an ideal to hold, useful in keeping someone forever striving to be better. Somewhere along the way people began treating the idea of 'perfect' as an objective reality, and I see no good in that. There's no reason to hold Mozart to any more or less of an ideal as any other composer, as an interpreter.

I read an interview recently, Horowitz maybe, where the pianist said if someone wants to hear a perfect rendition of music, to hold the score in front of you and hear it in your head.

Mozart is some truely great music, the more I hear the more I like. I suspect one has to be able to get into the aesthetic of the time to better understand Mozart. But there already was a useless thread on this topic recently, go back a few pages if you want to get upset.

Yes, Mozart is put on a bit of a pedestal when someone says he's difficult pianistically, 'cause he's not. But he's earned the pedestal musically, it's just great stuff. The difficulty in Mozart's music is that he would say a lot with comparatively few notes, and botching them up can really compromise the musical image. From there, you can develop a lot of interpretive feeling into his music. It's the kind of stuff you can put much more in than just the notes.

[teresa_b]

I agree, "perfection" is unattainable whether it be Mozart or Rachmaninoff.  The same standard should be applied to the performance of any composer's music, even though no one can do it all perfectly!   The point is, imperfections stick out like a sore thumb in Mozart far more than in most Romantic composers.  So Mozart is all that much more difficult.  Not that he is so hard technically, per se.  Playing Mozart sensitively is challenging, no question. 

Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion.  To those who believe Mozart is "silly" or "childish," I suspect they are still children, and personal growth and maturity will bring more insights. 

Teresa

[mig]

I totally agree with teresa. You can't hide anything in Mozart. Also, I find Scarlatti as transparent and very similar in that to Mozart. I must agree that Mozart isn't as hard technically as the Chopin Etudes, for example, but even in them, where one of the main goals is precisely perfection, you can hide away some of the defects and get away with it. In Mozart you just can't. @ pianistimo. Besides vocal, Mozart is very nicely imagined as a string quartet, try it. @ beanman. There is no one piece that can convince you otherwise. Either you like Mozart or you don't. It's that simple. Truelly, I used to hate Mozart, I thought it was the most disgusting thing after Czerny. Then, when I was like 15, something "clicked" in my head, and I started to respect him, then admire. @ matt. k576 is infernal, I share your pain. You might want to take a look here https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,14563.0.html I know it's not perfect, and I still have a looong way to go with it, but it's something.

[mikey6]

i think mozart is rubbish. i have learnt rondo alla turca and it is easy, even to get note perfection. volod's has a much more interesting piece,

mozart supposedly wrote music as pantomimes are written today> as alaugh which sums mozart up.

people who claim to like him are just trying to sound clever and superior, but in fact they come across as common, snobbish and boring.

i cant think of a composer who puts less thought and feeling into his works.

ps.
learning rondo alla turca made me physically sick, but you have to learn lame catchy uninteresting background music to get a job as a pianist dont you!

This is really quite anoying when people come out with a remark like this.  Ok it's personal opinion but when you choose possibly Mozart's worst piano piece out of his sonats which are generally not considered his best works and say that (all) his music is rubbish, it's not really a fair assessment.  And there is far more to hi smusic than 'note perfection'! sure, a wrong note stands out but every note has to be given it's own character - His best music is his operas's and concerto's (mind you he wrote masterpieces in every form) and his piano writing very much reflects his operas - different characters.
But a question when you come out with a statement like 'Mozart is rubbish' - surely you know you're gonna cop a lot of back lash as he is generally considered one of the greatest compsoers the worls has known.  You could at least ask for tips on how to appreciate his music and then if he doesn't touch you, that's fair enough but please have some firm basis for your post.

[musicsdarkangel]

i have an open mind, so suggest one piece, the ultimate in mozart repertoire that will change my opinion of him and i will listen to it.

he gives people a sense of humour in classcal musci because he is a silly little boy to laugh at and wet his pants

Try the Theme and Variations from his Sonata K 284.

Try it at Larrocha or Jaoa Pirez speed.  Or perhaps with phrasing as well?

It's so much harder than it sounds.  Just try it.

[cjp_piano]

Mozart IS very difficult.  Sure, it's easy to read, but because it's so transparent and exposed, it must be very clean.  Everyone will be able to hear all the fine details with voicing, phrasing, balance, etc. 

No one better say, "but you have to have good voicing, phrasing and balance in Chopin, too!"

That's not my point, it's true that one must be just as diligent in learning to play Brahms, Liszt, Chopin, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Bartok, the list is endless.  But Mozart is no easier simply because his music is easy to READ.

[arensky]

i think mozart is rubbish. i have learnt rondo alla turca and it is easy, even to get note perfection. volod's has a much more interesting piece,

mozart supposedly wrote music as pantomimes are written today> as alaugh which sums mozart up.

people who claim to like him are just trying to sound clever and superior, but in fact they come across as common, snobbish and boring.

i cant think of a composer who puts less thought and feeling into his works.

ps.
learning rondo alla turca made me physically sick, but you have to learn lame catchy uninteresting background music to get a job as a pianist dont you!

You are rubbish

[arensky]

I think the whole "Mozart is impossible to play perfectly" thing is a myth, honestly.  He's just simply not difficult compared to so many other prominant composers.


Also, I don't think it's fair to put Mozart on a pedastal like that, because who's to say a perfect performance of Liszt or Alkan or Chopin isn't what's required?

Yes it is a myth. NOTHING is impossible, except perfection, because everything can always be better. Yes there are not as many notes in Mozart as in Liszt or Chopin, but the margin of error is much smaller in Mozart than in music written after him, because of the transparency and clarity of his writing. The same is true of Bach, Ravel and Saint-Saens.

[demented cow]

Dear Beanman,
when you get to highschool you will hopefully learn some more convincing techniques in argumentation which will save you from developing a reputation as an obnoxious person.
To prove that an artist is worthless (as opposed to just saying that he is without evidence), you have to point out deficiencies in their BEST works, not their WORST works (e.g. alla turca). So go and borrow cds of his best works (e.g. the requiem, some late concertos (e.g. piano concertos 20, 21, 22, 23, 24,25, clarinet concerto), Don Giovani, Symphonies 39, 40, 41, C minor piano sonata+fantasy) and point out their musical deficiencies in a rational way.
You call him feelingless, but that's not what I hear in works like these.
You complain about the joke aspect of Mozart, but Haydn and Beethoven do lots of musical jokes too.
I wish you well in this phase in your personal development.
The Cow

[cjp_piano]

lol

[matt haley]

quote from mig

@ matt. k576 is infernal, I share your pain. You might want to take a look here https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,14563.0.html I know it's not perfect, and I still have a looong way to go with it, but it's something.

MIG -  your playing is almost perfect..... your touch is exquisite,voicing and phrasing are excellent..
you really do know how to make mozart sing,excellent performance and yes as you said this work is infernal....  ive also been playing k333 in bflat,this is a great sonata.

btw i also listened to a rach etude you posted in the audition room.and what a difficult etude it is but again you playing and the sound was wonderful,u made it seem effortless,
thanks for sharing your awesome interpretations.....

may i ask how long youve been playing and how you spend your time practicing.....

off the subject have you looked at chopins sonatas 2 and 3??


  your an extremely gifted young pianist

      regards         

                 Matt Haley..

[mig]

Thanks a lot, matt. Check your PMs