Bach - Decentively Hard!

[steve jones]

Iv been doing a couple of the Inventions, and damn, how hard are they to really nail?!

I did No1 first, and got the HS up speed pretty quickly. Put the hands together without to much trouble. But getting it all perfectly even, with the right articulation, and without flubs...

... its killing me! 

Now Im working on No8, and I see it going the same way - coming together quickly, but I reckon mastering it will take forever.

Any tips of NAILING the Bach Inventions? Inparticular, getting the desired eveness in the passage work and eliminating flubs.

Thanks again guys, where would I be without you!

[_tyro]

Hate to break it to you, but you *never* nail them.  That's what's so very fine.  You have an entire lifetime ahead of you changing phrasing, dynamics, tempo, emphasis.  You probably need to memorize from the start.  If you can't stop pretty much anywhere, and pick up where you left off from memory, hands separately or together, and at any tempo you choose, then you don't really know them.  When you really know them, then you can start having fun.

[gorbee natcase]

Well the worst thing you can do with the bach inventions (in general) is to force the issue,
Try to play them off by heart before speeding up, they are tricky as the phrases are quite long and require a good articulation in the left hand as well as the right, so spend time on the left alone, listen to the piece regularly 

[steve jones]

Thanks lads, the advice is golden as always!

Tell you how Iv been working on them so far:

- Breaking them first into the three main sections
- Breaking these sections into shorter phrases

- Learning the phrases seperately, then putting the full section together
- Working on any iffy technical areas (maybe articulation, or a tricky run).

- When I can play both HS well over speed, I start putting the hands together REALLY slow.
- Without rushing, I gradually over week or two build up the tempo to the desired level

I think the problem I had with Invention 1 was that it was the first piece of this type that Id attempted (ie a Baroque two voice counterpoint). And I was experimenting with the learning protocol while actually learning the piece. This has left me with big gapping holes, and I shall definately have to re learn this piece in the future.

Hopefully, with that experience behind me, I can work through No8 and have something a little more concrete at the end. So far Im taking my time and keeping the HT nice and relaxed.

"left hand as well as the right, so spend time on the left alone, listen to the piece regularly"

Do all three mate. Have three or four recordings of each one, and I listen to each all the time during the learning stage. I have it so the tune is running in my head almost constantly (which actually drives me around the twist after a bit, lol).

Left hand articulation isnt to bad. I do find my scale work sloppy with this hand though, so I pay certain phrases ALOT of attention (for example, b3 LH on No8).


Tryo,

I am not there yet but not to far off with No1. I can stop and start HS or HT no problem, but I flub at higher tempos (especially on the tricky bars at the end of the second section). I do also memorize religiously. The score is on my computer which is at a really funny angle from my piano, so its either memorize or get the ultimate rubber neck. To be honest, I dont find memorization very difficult. These pieces are all short too which helps.

[rivaldo]

I just "finished" invent #4 from bach and it's really difficult to make it sounds good...

I started the #8 today, I just memorized the beggining of the RH a few hours ago.

Why did you pick #8? Because it sounds nice? That's why I picked #4 and now #8, my favorites after listen them all.

[_tyro]

Tryo,

I am not there yet but not to far off with No1. I can stop and start HS or HT no problem, but I flub at higher tempos (especially on the tricky bars at the end of the second section). I do also memorize religiously. The score is on my computer which is at a really funny angle from my piano, so its either memorize or get the ultimate rubber neck. To be honest, I dont find memorization very difficult. These pieces are all short too which helps.

I find it helps a lot to play at different tempos (tempi?)  -- not in the same iteration of course.  Alternate between really getting your fingers into the keys, and then sometimes playing really fast and lightly.  I go through four or five of them as part of my warm-up, usually several that have very different moods.  Don't play them well all the time, but they keep me honest, especially if I'm working on something like Chopin or Debussy.  After about fifty years, I'm still finding interplay between the voices that I never noticed before (maybe I'm just slow) and these will come out differently at different speeds and with different phrasing.   I find the hardest thing is to maintain a constant tempo throughout.  With Nos. 4 & 8, keeping the runs even and matched  in the two parts is the 2nd worst hassle.   This, of course, while making the voices sing.  As I say.. keeps you honest.

[steve jones]

Thats a good suggestion actually. Since learning the piece I have been practicing No1 at one tempo really (not to a metronome). Its somewhere around 100-110bpm. I should probably back off to 70bpm 'ish, and play to a metronome with real attention on the articulation. The trying 120 - 130 really light. Good stuff, I have a feeling that will help!

"With Nos. 4 & 8, keeping the runs even and matched  in the two parts is the 2nd worst hassle"

I have noticed that actually. But I guess that is something thats crucial to sort out as part of the whole hand indepedence lark. I can play the runs pretty quick HS, but HT I have to far more attention at a much lower tempo to keep it even.

Thats the great thing about these pieces - they are like a crash course in fundamental piano technique! I cant imagine attempting Beethoven sonatas without working on these first (and that is definately what I am striving for).

[_tyro]

Thats the great thing about these pieces - they are like a crash course in fundamental piano technique! I cant imagine attempting Beethoven sonatas without working on these first (and that is definately what I am striving for).

When I was learning piano, these were the first things I was given to play (after the usual introductory graded books, of course).  Next we started on the first Beethoven sonata.  Then we started on the Chopin preludes.  Then more Beethoven.  By then it was starting to become possible to learn things on my own.  If you haven't seen the Leimer-Gieseking book on technique, you might want to look at it,  because the first two-part invention is one of the pieces Leimer discusses in detail -- how to approach it and what you should take away from it.  Have fun!

[steve jones]

Quality, will check that out.

Actually, I did the same for a while - going through all my sisters old grade books and trying to work through the pieces. Iv been playing 12 months now though, and its time to get serious! I feel that the Inventions are totally accessible to me right now, where as Beethoven sonatas and Chopin etudes are not so much (and these are the ones I REALLY want to play in the long run).

Dont get me wrong, I can play bits of them. Op49 1 and 2 for example. And some Chopin Preludes. But I want to do like 10/4 and Appassionata... a long way off me thinks!

[bernhard]

If you have no yet come across these threads, have a look!

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.0.html
(invention 4 – comparison with chess game and Escher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310
(how to teach invention no. 1)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.msg44774.html#msg44774
(how to play inventions – Escher picture – Example: Invention 4 – Analogy with the game of chess)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5055.msg48120.html#msg48120
(fingering for sinfonia no. 9)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7857.msg78912.html#msg78912
(ornamentation and inventions – general discussion on ornamentation)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7246.msg72307.html#msg72307
(how to outline invention 14)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8015.msg81149.html#msg81149
(ornamentation of invention no. 1)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10304.msg106137.html#msg106137
(Analysis of invention no. 10)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[gorbee natcase]

Well atleast you are
 alive.

[Graf Zahl]

I am not posting too much in the forum, yet i read a lot. Therefore it is a relief for me that bernhard has returned.

 

[steve jones]

Bernhard,

I have indeed read those posts, and very insightful they were too may I add. I use the '20 min sessions' method religiously and it is fairing me well.

Its just that with the Inventions, when I think I have ironed out all the issues, I realise there are another bunch lurking around the corner! Its never ending!!!

But I guess that is why everyone tells me to learn Bach