my hands are like japanese noodles

[Tash]

says my new teacher!! haha i found that humerous, apart from the fact that it's exactly what i don't want...i have the problem in which the joints closest to my nails collapse when i'm playing sometimes- how can i get them to stop doing this? i've sort of analysed the problem, and i've thought 1) play closer to the piano, so i'm more on top of it rather than reaching out for the keys; 2) play everything HS and really slowly so i can focus on keeping my fingers bent the right way, and also to fix all my other problems i apparently have 3) tape my fingers together in a permanently bent way so they have no way of collapsing. i haven't tried the third thing, was wondering if anyone really thinks that would be a good idea? anything else i can do? thanks all!!

[bearzinthehood]

Of course I'm sure you already know that what you listed as (2) is the correct solution.  Try putting a book on the table, and resting your fingertips on it as if you were playing the piano.  Pull the book towards you, all the while trying to feel the sensation of pulling back from your fingertips.  That's the sensation that you should try to mimic at the piano in order to solve the collapsing joint problem.

[leahcim]

20 lessons in keyboard choreography starts with an exercise where you play notes by putting your thumb behind that nail joint [of one finger] and then playing with that one finger simple, slow "pieces" [just notes with different dynamics really] and then switch fingers.

It's difficult to comfortably do that for 4 + 5 though.

It has another exercise where you put the first finger of your other hand and press down on the top of the finger you're playing with [and the finger you're playing with presses back] If that makes sense you end up playing with a taut, springy but flatter finger - in fact I think that's the first exercise, before doing the other, and after you've used a pencil to play.

"Taut" and "springy" is the way it describes your fingers pretty much throughout the book.

[ada]

I've got that habit too. Lots of really slow, really precise scales concentrating on not letting your joint collapse helped me. Tedious but effective.

[Tash]

mmm i noticed today it's pretty bad in my scales when going fast esp LH 2nd and 3rd fingers- RH wasn't too bad. randomly i attempted to tape my fingers into a bent position for about 2 minutes, but was too distracted by the feeling of the tape and the fact that it wasn't helping me keep them in position using my muscles so that useless idea shall live in my bin....

is it a result of having weak fingers, or at least having lazy fingers? and probably a lifetime of me bending my joints in the wrong direction would've encouraged it...

[bearzinthehood]

Don't use tape... 

[Tash]

haha i know, it was just a random experiment that i was pretty sure wouldn't work:)

[ted]

If it happens with all fingers it's probably just habit rather than physical weakness, Tash. If it were just one or two fingers doing it now and then because they really are weak, I can't see it matters very much. It happens to me sometimes, but not very often. I don't think I'd fancy doing it all the time because it seems to markedly decrease my control.

If it were me I'd be inclined to gradually start playing with more rounded fingers; not all at once so it upsets control of the music, but worked in over a few weeks until the good habit slowly replaces the bad one.

[bearzinthehood]

My opinion on this is a bit different.  I think it's all or nothing.  Once the problem is identified, reduce your practice speed until it becomes possible to do everything correctly, including the proper finger strokes.  Any other form of practice will only prolong the problem.

[alwaystheangel]

I can't believe that someone else has that problem!!!  My left hand bends down so much that it can almost touch the keys when I play.  It's improved a great deal because of the wonderful world of Hanon exercises.  My hand was just too weak and too flexible.  These exrcises practiced regularly and carefully will help strengthen your hand and minimize the japanese noodle effect"  I think that should be its official name... sounds really ominous or something.

[Tash]

ah hanon hate those things! i've been put on czerny exercises- great because they're easy to learn and they're short, thus giving maximum time into perfecting each little bit and focusing on my fingers.

i've been analysing my fingers and i believe the main culprits are LH 2 & 3, sometimes 4 but not often (or at least i don't think so, i can't see it half the time cos my other fingers get in the way of my vision of it) yeah slow practice seems to be good, just gotta be disciplined!! thanks all for the advice:)

[bearzinthehood]

I concur, the usefulness of Hanon in terms of solving this problem seems dubious to me.  If you must do an exercise I would try the first couple Dohnanyi exercises, but no more than 5 minutes per practice session.

[alwaystheangel]

well as crummy as hanon is.  I mean my mopther had to sit me down and force me to play them,  It did seem to solve my problem but my flexiblity was in the knukles of my hand not in the finger joints so I don't know...

[quantum]

I don't remember if I ever had that problem, but I tried playing a bit like you describe your nail joints.  I found that it required a higher wrist and more finger pressure than I normally use.  So in relation to that, try playing with a lower wrist and less exertion into the fingers.  Think more of raising fingers then dropping them as if they were weighted, as opposed to pushing them into the keys.  Have flexible and supple wrist at all times. 

See where that takes you.

[Tash]

actually my teacher kept telling me to lift my wrist up cos my hands were being lazy, and then i figured, maybe it's partly because i've been playing on a more horizontal than vertical line- like if i play more on top of the keys rather than reaching out to it, then my fingers are going to be playing more on the tip of the finger, and then 'dropping' them, like you said, is going to take them in the right direction, if that makes any sense...

[quantum]

That makes sense.  You're trying to draw your finger tips nearer your palm.  Just be careful that you don't go too far to the other end of the spectrum where your fingers play like chop sticks (this can happen if you play too much with just the tips).  It is very easy to over emphasise when learning something new. 

[bearzinthehood]

actually my teacher kept telling me to lift my wrist up cos my hands were being lazy, and then i figured, maybe it's partly because i've been playing on a more horizontal than vertical line- like if i play more on top of the keys rather than reaching out to it, then my fingers are going to be playing more on the tip of the finger, and then 'dropping' them, like you said, is going to take them in the right direction, if that makes any sense...

It's impossible to diagnose what your problem is without actually see you play, but here are some ideas:

- There are two distinct types of finger strokes.  The first type is the grasping motion, which is basically pulling back from your fingertips (and knuckles of course).  The second type is the "typing" motion, which is extending your fingers from an already curled position.  While both can be useful in certain situations, generally you want to go for the former, pulling motion.

- It makes sense not to reach, but do not start from too curled a position, otherwise you will no longer be able to grasp they keys and your fingers will most likely end up doing the second, less desireable finger stroke.  Unfortunately, it's impossible to convey to you what is "too curled" and what is "too flat", so the best advice is to listen very carefuly to your teacher, who sounds like he/she knows what he/she is doing.  Again, wrist too high or low?  We can't properly advise you because we can't see what you're doing.

- About what quantum said about weight.  The weight of a finger alone if not enough to depress a piano key.  There must be some muscular involvement, but the duration must be limited so that it ends at contact with the keybed.  That doesn't mean weight is not a factor, because the weight of your arm is certainly enough to depress a key, and in order to avoid tension you need to learn to use it properly.  One common way to think about it is to think of your fingers are pivots, over which your arm weight is distributed and transferred.  I must say again though, please listen to your teacher.  If you have confidence in your teacher then that is way better than anything you read on some piano forum

[quantum]

I was referring more to an idea to keep in your head.  If you think of dropping, it will pull you away from the thought of pushing with excess force. 

[pianojems]

 
Your fingers are not like noodles or lazy. If that part of your fingers bends in that direction it means that you are double jointed...your fingers that is. Some people are born with that. Most people cannot bend their first finger joint in the upward direction. Exercises in control might help. Unfortunately this condition can make piano playing more difficult. Ask your teacher for advice on dealing with this problem!
 

[bearzinthehood]

I was referring more to an idea to keep in your head.  If you think of dropping, it will pull you away from the thought of pushing with excess force. 

Interesting mental trick.  I heard one about thinking about pushing the hammers up instead of pushing the keys down from someone on this forum, I thought that one was interesting too.

Your fingers are not like noodles or lazy. If that part of your fingers bends in that direction it means that you are double jointed...your fingers that is. Some people are born with that. Most people cannot bend their first finger joint in the upward direction. Exercises in control might help. Unfortunately this condition can make piano playing more difficult. Ask your teacher for advice on dealing with this problem!
 

It has nothing to do with being double jointed.