Syncopated Pedalling - When did it become the norm?

[lynbron]

In "The Pianist's Guide to Pedaling," by Joseph Banowetz, Indiana University Press, 1985, ISBN 0-253-3494-8, Banowetz states:

"Liszt must have possessed an understanding of pedaling that was far ahead of his time. At least in his later years, he used syncopated or legato pedaling, a technique then considered advanced but now universally used and taught. In a letter to Louis Köhler dated July 27, 1875, Liszt wrote 'The entrance of the pedal after the striking of the chords... is very much to be recommended...especially in slow tempi.'"

"Moriz Rosenthal, a student of Liszt's during the years 1878-79 and 1884-86, wrote in 1924 that Liszt knew of syncopated pedaling and that he undoubtedly would be immensely pleased at its general adoption in the four decates after his death."

Rosenthal, in the same article, states, "The lack of the general use of syncopated pedal technique by pianists of Liszt's day..... is the most distinctive difference between the piano playing of forty years ago and today. I consider the discovery of the syncopated pedal the most important event in the history of piano playing. It constitutes the high water mark between the older and the present school."

Personally, I find it very difficult to believe Chopin, Schumann and other Romantic era composers didn't discover syncopated pedaling on their own.

The question is: does anyone know of any other accounts by pianists of the nineteenth century that would confirm such a late discovery of this advanced pedaling technique?

Lyn Bronson
Instructor in Piano
California State University Monterey Bay

[henrah]

I must say that although I have been using this technique for a long, long time, I don't believe that I was told it or shown it. I think I just subconsciously realised that it was the best way to do things, although in high-speed passages it becomes rather hard to press it down without missing the first notes. Thankyou for informing me of this. As for your question, I'm sorry but I do not know the answer.
Henrah

[pianistimo]

i've got a book entitled 'pedalling the modern pianoforte' by york bowen.  it has some interesting comments in terms of marked pedalling in romantic music.  for instance on page 21  "it is quite common to find the ends of phrases or rests completely obliterated by stupid suggestions of held pedal - presumably because the harmonies do not happen to alter at the moment.  for instance, examine this concrete instance from a well-established edition of chopin's fantasie in F minor:  "to follow these directions exactly would be deliberately to disregard the composer's wishes, for it is likely that any composer in his senses would go to the trouble of writing a crochet AND a quaver rest when a dotted crochet would do as well?  i feel sure composers would waste neither time nor ink marking rests in such cases as this where the momentary 'breaths' or silences are essential to the beauty of the phrase in question..."  so anyway, he goes on to talk about these editions and we have to determine if it is really the pedalling that the composer wanted.

he says "happily, the tendency in the more recently published music and newer editions is to mark the pedallings with much greater care and sometimes these can be taken literally."

sorry to go on about this and not syncopated pedalling - but i am looking in the book for references to that right now.

[pianistimo]

i don't see in this book an exact reference to syncopated pedalling, but i was recently taught more intricacies of this and one is referenced in this book.  when you see romantic music with Ped. - you think you are supposed to pedal at the exact moment of the chord or note.  but, as you say  - it is much more adviseable to play it first and then pedal quickly afterwards.  this quickness cannot be achieved without  (page 28) "realizing the necessity for remaining at the 'damping spot,' before again depressing the pedal..."

you often hear 'pedal slap' with inexperienced pianists...and then they pedal it to the floor.  when you find this 'damping spot'  - as you know, you hover around it for quick clean changes.  (just like hitting a key on the piano - once it's hit - there's little you can do to change it so you don't worry about extraneous movements). 

i think composers such as ravel and debussy surely would have been experts (as well as chopin) on pedalling.  quick syncopated pedalling, in particular, and flutter pedalling.  'legatissimo effects produced by slightly delaying the change of pedal and raising foot somewhat slower than usual' could be used by composers like debussy to maintain an effect.

control of the pedals (i learned) can be more effective with the right shoes, too.  preferrably wider toed ones.  men find these easily, but women's are often pointy toed.  so, i went specifically for a pair of squared toed pumps and find pedalling in them MUCH easier.

ok.  beating around the bush.  will do a search on romantic composers and their pedalling techniques because i'm not finding a lot on what specific composers thought or wrote about syncopated pedalling in their own works. 

[pianistimo]

on amazon they have a book entitled "a history of pianoforte pedalling" by david rowland (cambridge musical texts and monographs included).  it looks interesting.  you can look inside the book cover to read exerpts.

also, for a very basic idea of what syncopated pedalling is:
www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A541559  especially liked the reference to mushy pedalling as a 'waterlogged fruit trifle.'

that's about it for now.  maybe i'll take a look at that book at barnes and noble.

[steve jones]

I must admit, I know nothing about pedalling as a self taught piano student. But I tend to pedal in this manner:

- play a chord
- depress the pedal just after (but not hard as to be audiable)
- hold pedal
- change to next chord position
- release pedal and play chord in one instant
- etc

I assume the other way would be to hit the pedal at the same time? I found this to effect the tone to much, drowning the 'attack' of the timbre.

Think I shall have to do some reading on this, as there is clearly more to it than meets the eye!

Steve J

[pianolist]

One day someone ought to undertake a study of pedalling as it appears on recorded piano rolls. There will always be grey areas, since half pedalling was pretty much impossible to transfer, but otherwise there is a clear perforation track of what the pianist recorded. My feeling from listening to many rolls, though I haven't catalogued it in detail, is that around the turn of the century, the French in particular held the sustaining pedal down through harmonic changes as a coloration device, whereas the Germans had already progressed to a more modern style.

Anyone in the London area might be interested to know that Dr Cliff Eisen of King's College. London, will be giving a talk next Tuesday, 7 February, at 6.15 pm in the British Library, entitled "How do you like your Mozart?" Amongst other musical illustrations, he will be using recordings from piano roll of the playing of Carl Reinecke (b. 1824), the earliest born pianist ever to have made a serious recording, and a noted Mozart specialist. Reinecke was born when Beethoven was still alive, and he went on to become a good friend of Schumann. He was in his eighties by the time he recorded, but his style is particularly interesting, since it must already have attained some maturity in the first half of the nineteenth century.

[bearzinthehood]

I don't know a whole lot about this, but I do know that not too long before Liszt pianos had the original form of the pedal, which was a knee operated damper that operated in the opposite manner of current pedals.  That pedaling technique was continuing to improve through the time of Liszt is not entirely surprising given the amount of evolution the pedal underwent.

[pianistimo]

very interesting, pianolist.  i hope that we can hear more sometime.