Poltergeist?

[timothy42b]

Have you been practising Scriabin's 9th Sonata, "Black Mass", by any chance?

No, Symphony Fantastique. 

[timothy42b]

I am beginning to beleive that if the written Bible said the Earth is flat, some of you people would still beleive it.

There's a basic dilemma here.

There are those who fear if even a single error is found in the Bible anywhere, we must throw out the whole thing, and our entire worldview and basis for faith comes crashing down.  These people MUST defend some very irrational things, and pretend others don't exist.  They have no choice.  The demon believers above mostly fall in this camp, and it is an internally consistent logical stance.  But it is incomprehensible to outsiders, who say huh?  when told the earth is flat and has corners, the sky is a solid dome with the stars sun and moon stuck in it, etc. 

Then there are others who believe there are essential truths contained in the scriptures, but it must be read and understood in the context of the historical development and intent.  (It wasn't meant to be a science text, so finding a scientific error doesn't invalidate the whole thing.)  This is my stance and that of moderate Christians everywhere.  It is not completely internally consistent, as we are forced to admit some scientific and historical data are unreliable, but claim the message of salvation remains intact.  What do we do when the things we can verify are proven unreliable, but the things we cannot verify (and are really more important) are assumed true? 

It is actually much more consistent and logical, when faced with known problems in the verifiable sections, to discard the rest as well.  This is what atheists do, and it makes sense.  But we with faith have not chosen that path.  Well, nobody ever claimed religion had to make sense.  It's just that I insist on throwing out what seems to be egregious nonsense. 

[leahcim]

It is actually much more consistent and logical, when faced with known problems in the verifiable sections, to discard the rest as well.  This is what atheists do, and it makes sense.

Nah. That's not what atheism is. It doesn't make sense to discard something because something else is untrue, unless the latter depends on the former's truth. Think about it. If you wrote the bible replacing all the so-called "verifiable" sections with stuff that did verify that wouldn't make most of the atheists that I know believe some other so-called "unverifiable" parts.

Besides, atheism isn't "not being a christian" or "not believing in the bible", lots of deeply religious people fall into that category.

[pianistimo]

as far as i know, there's no text in the bible that says the earth is flat or the stars are 'stuck to the dome of the sky.'   that was probably middle age thinkers or something.  believing in the miracles of the bible does not make you unable to comprehend scientific knowledge.  it just means that you readily admit you don't know everything - which is what people WANT to know and have to ask God for someday (when they meet Him). 

atheists don't believe in any deities at all - so how could they be 'religious.'  i think you mean agnostic (believe in the possibility - but hasn't been proven to them).  atheists have pretty much decided what is true to them and what is not true.  they would have to have some kind of very unusual experience to believe there's a God (negating the fact that he created everything around us - and that there are many miracles every day - such as the birth of humans/animals - the orbits of the planets - the sun/moon/stars having an actual calendrical purpose and the stars having patterns - God even made the moon to look like it has a face.  (why?)  maybe he was concerned as to how we view things from earth and wanted it to be pleasing and interesting.  even young children look up and see a face (mine did just a few days ago 'mommy why does the moon have a face?').  this may seem cooincidental to those that believe there has to be a 'rationale' explaination for all this - but then if they want 'rational' it wouldn't come from a random coiincidence like a 'big bang' only (probably the start of everything was with the Word of God causing an explosion of creation).  it had to have some planning put into it.  and, imo, had to be created to be so true.  the more we discover - the more planning there is to it.  also, we have the dilemma of social structures (marriage, etc.) - where did that come from.  did people suddenly make up the marriage vows or have they been in the bible for 6000 (a man shall leave his mother and cleave to his wife...etc).  since joseph is said to have been 'embalmed' in egypt - i am very curious if any of the mummies we see today is possibly his body.  we know so many thousands of years ago that one of the pharoahs gave him authority equal to his own.  and the very popular pyramid hieroglyphics depicting a man scything wheat to be similar in story to saving the whole area from seven years of famine.  archeology has to be amazingly accurate to state distinct places that are still here today - and what happened in them (and see some of the remains) such as solomon's temple in jerusalem.  but, people often start claiming that it's just stories - and never follow through to PROVE it wrong.

[timothy42b]

I think this will be considered flip, but ..... can't be helped.

That distills down to, "Because the moon looks like a face, the Bible must be true."

Except for the parts that are not.  Like day and night and light existing before the sun, moon, and stars were made.  Like the Greater Light and Lesser Light (sun and moon) being fixed in the firmament, a solid dome that covered the earth and divided "the waters from the waters."  Of course if you believe the sun and moon travel across the dome it is reasonable to think they stopped for a day to finish a battle.  But you are going to reinterpret these clear and unmistakeable statements as simply "-middleaged thinking mistakes."  Okay, I agree with you.  And the same applies to demons - which don't exist and never did, anymore than the sun orbited the earth. 

[leahcim]

atheists don't believe in any deities at all - so how could they be 'religious.'  i think you mean agnostic (believe in the possibility - but hasn't been proven to them).

If that referred to my statement, then you probably misread it.

I wasn't saying that lots of deeply religious people fall into the category of being atheist.

I was saying that lots of deeply religious people fall into the category of not believing the bible or christianity. i.e they believe in other religions based on different books.

i.e you'd have to have a Christian pov view to begin with to decide that atheists are people who dismiss the entire bible because parts of it aren't true.

Why is it important at all to even consider that book to be atheist? Why not the books of wikipogipo, Yabbagabba Dorin or Yiddi Widdi woo? Which, judging by my sales figures no one has read

[prometheus]

The bible is either the word of God, or it isn't. If it is the world of god then it is entirely true. But in that case; how to read it.

Obviously you can't take it literally. But if you accept that you can't take large parts of the bible literally, how can you know which parts are to be taken literally.

The point is that you can interpret the bible, or the quran, any way you want. Actually, you must interpret the bible, and how you interpret it reflects who you are. So if you read the bible you are rewriting it. Everyone has a personal bible, 'customised' for her or himself.

I though the stars, moon and sun where holes in the firmament with the light of the heavens shining through them.

To me as an atheist, the notion of a god, especially a monotheist god, one that is omnipotent and omniscient, is totally absurd. The world around me just 'screams' otherwise. Everything I know and experience bluntly contradict this notion. I also don't understand most of the dogma's assosiated with monotheism. Some of them are, to me, utterly absurd. My brain cannot comprehend the notion of a god, it is just too silly. This is even beyond the question if I could believe in god. But it is also too obviously fiction.

To me the bible is a book with the history and mythology of an old civilization with the morals and ethics a bit worse than the taliban today. That this book is a book of wisdom is just absurd to me. Maybe it does contain some, but surely there are many more books with more wisdom. Also, because of the translations any symbolic meaning is lost because those meanings are subtle and require exact wording. Plus, the bible text has so much power over people, and people are so concerned with having power over others, the bible must be used as a tool of power. Only a miracle could have prevented people from changing the text of the bible for their gain.

[pianistimo]

dear timothy42b,

i like you, leahcim, and prometheus because you do adequately explain what you mean and i understand your viewpoint.  i believe the bible is completely and entirely true.  that the light of the original days of creation was God himself (just as in revelations it says there will be no need of the sun or moon - as He will be our  light).  all this seems hypothetical because #1 we didn't see it at creation #2 we only see the sun and moon and stars (and some planets) now #3 we can't see into the future and have never seen God yet.  so, all in all, we're agreed that it can't be proven scientifically.

what i find interesting though - is if all this happened 'naturally' there would be MUCH more chaos.  the temperature of the earth would have wildly fluctuated, more mixing of the gene pool when man/animals were alive, and yes, little things that are 'bonuses' (children looking like us, moon having a face, insects all having the same purpose instead of mixing together and having all kinds of cross-functions, humans never having heard of marriage or the idea of anything different than animal function, language to be one (as it was from the beginning - and God caused a multitude of languages to spread out people over the earth).  there's just too much organization as i see it.

we just agree to disagree.  i see a lot of planning and guidance.  as far as angels and devils (demons) - we are told in the bible that they are real.  that the archangels and the angels that follow them have functions just as different creatures in the physical world.  that Satan was originally Lucifer (or bringer of light) - and was created good until evil was found in him.  that the angels are above us, but that that is temporary.  that we may encounter angels during our lifetime - and/that we may obtain protection from them (as i once witnessed my four year old fall off a 2 1/2 foot ledge, headfirst, down to concrete and suddenly flip and not get hurt).  many things have happened like this in my life - but it's hard to explain to someone else - because they would have to see it to believe it.  my faith isn't built only on what i've seen, but i can't say it hasn't helped. 

ps i thought it was more than coincidence that a man on the news recently - #1 heard a baby crying #2 saw the exact placement of a suspicious (DARK colored - so it wouldn't be noticed) bag floating in a lake.  #3 opened the bag in time for the baby to survive.  things like this are miracles to me.  to others it might be coincidence - but i see it as the mercy of God.  people ask, then why doesn't he see pain.  personally i do think He sees it and i don't fully understand why it exists (especially for children who have done nothing wrong).  perhaps the sins of the parents (generations) are cursed for whatever they do against God - but we'll only fully know why pain exists when God tells us.  we know that if we didn't have pain sensations that we would hurt ourselves even more.  but, pain and death go together - so when they are destroyed - there won't be either one. 

when i broke my leg that was the worst kind of pain i ever had.  i was still thinking it was fairly miraculous that my daughter didn't get hurt (because she fell the same distance with me and was fine).  also, i could have gotten hurt much worse by breaking my neck.  i feel that even in bad situations we have something to be thankful about.  in my case, if the bone had stuck out of the skin, i would have had a 50%, i think, increase in the need for surgery, possibility of gangarene, and much more trouble with skin plus bone.  i prayed about my 'surgery' and ended up only having to have a closed reduction (which amazing put both bones - the tibia AND fibula together straight).  i think even the doctor was surprised at the outcome.  these things are not cooincidence to me, and make me amazed how God interacts in our lives - especially if we pray and ask Him for help.  I am almost walking again - and it makes me thankful because so many things we take forgranted.  even bad things work for good if you trust and believe God will work it all out.  He says He will  never leave or forsake us, and will never give us a trial that we cannot bear.

[thalbergmad]

My God, what have i started??

[pianistimo]

a war. ahahahah.  not really.

[lagin]

I am beginning to beleive that if the written Bible said the Earth is flat, some of you people would still beleive it.

Haha, actually, the Bible gives the implication that the earth is round in the old testament, so no worries!  (If you want the verse, let me know, and I'll get it for you).   I don't know about lights being "stuck" in any firmament, or suns rotating earths!  The verse you are refering to, Tim, is Genesis 14 -16.  The entire quote would read, Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse (also translated firmament) of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth; and it was so.  And God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the leser light to govern the night: He made the stars also.

If I said there was a plane in the expanse of the sky, I would not be saying, "Look at that plane stuck to that big blue sheet!" Lol.  (Please, please, people, take a closer look at a verse before just saying, it says this and that here, or whatever!)  By the way, I do admit that I am skim reading this thread, so if I'm missing something here, forgive me.  I don't have time to read every post right now. 

And i'm confused Timothy; are you saying you don't believe in demons at all?  Because how do you explain verses like, the story of the witch at Endor, Jesus' casting out of multiple demons throughout the gospels, or even James 2:19, "You believe that God is one.  You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." 

Please don't tell me that you are saying some of the Bible is true and some isn't, because if that's the case, you might as well throw the whole thing out, because who is going to decide what is true and what is false, where God spoke and where man inserted his own thoughts, where translations are accurate and where they aren't, what is literal and what is exaggeration..............and on and on and on........  I actually appreciate atheists saying, it's all rubbish more than people saying well this is true, but in my opinion this isn't.  At least with Christians that believe the whole thing, and atheists that don't believe any of it, you know where everybody stands!

Once again, I'm a skim reader, so if I'm pointing fingers where they don't need to be pointed just "point" that out to me.

[pianolist]

Fret not, Thalbergmad, amongst all this erudition of the faithful. Tell me, what sort of cheese was it? Cheddar? Brie? Dolcelatte? My mother used to swear she saw some Gorgonzola move of its own accord once, but she attributed it to maggots.

[alzado]

Look.  This is really "el whacko."  Let's get down some basic points on which we have agreed.

1.  Parts of the Bible advocate the worship of demons.  Even Timothy42b concedes this.  The "high places" references, the witch of Endor, etc.

2.  The Bible alone is no good whatsoever.  Only the spiritual guidance of the Holy Father, who is currently Pope Benedict XVI, can control or torment the spirits of the dead.

3.  In the Gospel, Jesus gave power to bind or loose the spirits only to Peter, who represented the papacy.

4.  Salvation relies on worshipping the Pope.   Those of us who are saved have learned this true message.

Thalburgmad--    Have you been applying some of the advice from this thread?  Has it weakened the poltergeist or made it rage even stronger?  The Bible will only make the fiend rage more intensely.  Have you obtained the necessary photos of Benedict XVI?

Alzado

[g_s_223]

Hmmm, with the aid of:
1) one or more copies of The Bible
2) some Holy Water
3) a portrait of Pope Benedict XVI

it looks like you could conduct your own exorcism. Have you got a web cam and maybe we can all watch while you have a go?

[lagin]

Look.  This is really "el whacko."  Let's get down some basic points on which we have agreed.

1.  Parts of the Bible advocate the worship of demons.  Even Timothy42b concedes this.  The "high places" references, the witch of Endor, etc.

2.  The Bible alone is no good whatsoever.  Only the spiritual guidance of the Holy Father, who is currently Pope Benedict XVI, can control or torment the spirits of the dead.

3.  In the Gospel, Jesus gave power to bind or loose the spirits only to Peter, who represented the papacy.

4.  Salvation relies on worshipping the Pope.   Those of us who are saved have learned this true message.

Thalburgmad--    Have you been applying some of the advice from this thread?  Has it weakened the poltergeist or made it rage even stronger?  The Bible will only make the fiend rage more intensely.  Have you obtained the necessary photos of Benedict XVI?

Alzado

1. "And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent (obviously they've done something wrong) of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons (oh, look, here it what they did wrong), and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk."  Revelation 9:20 (From the Bible)

1. "But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim -- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."  Exodus 34:13 -14 (Also from the Bible!)

2.  Fr the record, God says nothing of popes in the Bible, though I respect their position in todays society.  And God certainly does not give such power to men, because that would make them like a "god" and there is only ONE God.  Please don't say the Bible says such things.  Catholic doctrine says such things.

3.  Jesus sent ALL 12 disciples out to cast out demons, actually.   Paul casts out demons also!

4.  JESUS says in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by ME."  In Romans, "If you confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."  There is NOTHING about the Pope or any other person anywhere in the whole entire Bible regarding salvation.  Jesus is the one who died on that cross, He is the only one who can save us.  God even calls JESUS the mediator between God and man, not anyone else, not even the Pope.

I have to teach in like 3 minutes, so I didn't have time to add references from the Bible to the last three, once again, if anyone wants them, let me know, and i can put them up tonight.

AND PLEASE TIME A MILLION STOP STOP STOP SAYING THAT THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING WHEN YOU GIVE NO REFERENCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not even a court would classify it as a valid argument without REFERENCES!!!!!!!  What you guys are showing is that you are just repeating what you've been told without even looking for yourself.  Timothy is the closest one to actually giving a reference so far, as he at least give examples from the Bible, but Tim, you need to give the references too, cause I keep looking up your examples and they don't back your statements, so just check them out first, k?   *end rant* must go teach.

[rob47]

Ezekiel 25:17. The path
of the righteous man is beset on
all sides by the inequities of the
selfish and the tyranny of evil
men. Blessed is he who, in the
name of charity and good will,
shepherds the weak through the
valley of darkness, for he is truly
his brother's keeper and the finder
of lost children. And I will
strike down upon thee with great
vengeance and furious anger those
who attempt to poison and destroy
my brothers. And you will know my
name is the Lord when I lay my
vengeance upon thee.

[lagin]

Actually Rob, Ezekiel 25:17 says, "And I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the LORD when I lay My vengeance on them."
The 2 verses right before it gives the context, "Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because the Philistines have acted in revenge and have taken vengeance with scorn of soul to destroy with everlasting enmity, therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, even cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast."  Then "And I will execute........."(verse 17)

God is pronouncing His judgement against these nations in not only these 3 verses, but from chapter 25 of the book through the next few chapters.

So, I'm not sure where the other stuff in your quote came from??     Probably from that dudes sermon .

[maul]

Tarantino spiced it up for the movie, obviously...

[lagin]

Oh, haha, I didn't know it was a movie, lol.  Sorry!  I've hardly seen any movies